The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Saiga]

It's not strange at all. Piccolo is willing to put his life on the line when the world is in danger, but to fight someone that much stronger than him in the tournament is just pointless since he'll lose anyway.

Maybe to you find it strange,but even Yamcha when he is outmatch in a tournament doesn't just up and walk out the ring. Their is something called warriors pride. I've also finished my statement so you can see how i interpret the scene.

Also, in viz translation he actually says "He is a different order of being", in other words, "he is a god", not necessarily stronger than him.

Pride isn't everything. Piccolo thought the fight futile, and backed down.

Viz's translations aren't really significant here/=.

[shonenhikada]

It's not strange at all. Piccolo is willing to put his life on the line when the world is in danger, but to fight someone that much stronger than him in the tournament is just pointless since he'll lose anyway.

Maybe to you find it strange,but even Yamcha when he is outmatch in a tournament doesn't just up and walk out the ring. Their is something called warriors pride. I've also finished my statement so you can see how i interpret the scene.

Also, in viz translation he actually says "He is a different order of being", in other words, "he is a god", not necessarily stronger than him.

Pride isn't everything. Piccolo thought the fight futile, and backed down.

Viz's translations aren't really significant here/=.

Or Piccolo bowed out of resspect because he knew who kai-o-shin was. You keep overlooking some parts of my argument.

Piccolo assumed Shin was that much greater because he knew Shin was a GOD. It's clear that Piccolo didn't feel anything, because if he felt it, he would have said it the moment they were staring at each other, he would have mention something about power but he never did. He only quit after having his mind read, and with that he already figured Shin was a Grand Kaio, so he simply assumed their powers were miles apart.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Also, in viz translation he actually says "He is a different order of being", in other words, "he is a god", not necessarily stronger than him.

Viz's translation is somewhat misleading, and read this:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Context: after Piccolo resigns from his and Kaioshin's match
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next.”
Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension” throughout these quotes, like Tenshinhan talking about Super Saiyan Goku, or the narrator describing final form Freeza. In Viz the line is made vaguer (“He is a different order of being”), which makes it sound like Piccolo could just be talking about how Kaioshin is a super-god, rather than about his strength per-say. Anyway, though Piccolo is pretty much flat-out saying Kaioshin is way stronger than him here, you could still argue that he's either mistaken or lying...I guess.

There's nothing wrong with Kaioushin being stronger than Piccolo, and it fits in with how he's hyped up before the sequence in Bobbodi's spaceship, and even then, he's only dwarfed by the Super Saiyans (who are still in another league from Piccolo, who doesn't even fight in this arc).

I'll admit, though, that the line is quite strange and might be a victim of poor writing, since Piccolo immediately forfeits the match after Kaioushin reads his mind and, from seemingly nothing more than just that (as if no-one but a god can read minds at this point in the series; heck, even fucking Gokuu did it back in the Freeza arc ), deduces that he must be the Dai-Kaiou. Not to mention that, even if Kami's inside him, Piccolo flat-out not deciding to fight someone, even if they are stronger than him, is incredibly out-of-character for him. I mean, let's face it, Piccolo didn't change that much from the merge. He pretty much reverts back to how he was before after his first fight with Cell, and aside from the occasional moments with Dende and Kaioushin, he's still mostly Piccolo.

So I guess what I'm saying here is...no-one's necessarily wrong here, since I believe someone like Piccolo forfeiting when a stranger does something that isn't at all unusual, telling Gokuu that it's because he was stronger than him, and then guessing that he's the Dai-Kaiou...doesn't quite fit and is somewhat suspect (maybe, since none of them could sense his ki, Piccolo could be lying to Gokuu to save face...but Gokuu doesn't seem to question Piccolo somehow knowing that Kaioushin's stronger than him), but I still personally believe that the Kaioushin's stronger than Piccolo, and he may've forfeited because he was both stronger than him and a superior deity (as far as he knew, he was the highest god in existence, since he and Kaiou had only heard rumours about Kaioushin, and neither had ever seen him).

---

EDIT: OK, I've figured out a way to reconcile all these statements. When he first faces Kaioushin during their match, Piccolo, perhaps due to the Kami inside of him, can still somewhat sense that there's something otherworldly about Kaioushin, and not just from the fact that they can't sense his ki (nothing out of the ordinary, since he could just be suppressing it). When Kaioushin reads his mind, he puts two and two together and, realizing that he may be the Dai-Kaiou, forfeits because he assumes that he must be stronger than him and out of respect for a superior deity (this is basically the Piccolo equivalent of Vegeta going into shock over Broli in Movie #8; out-of-universe, it's to hype this new guy up).

To save face, he lies to Gokuu about him being stronger than him, and Gokuu doesn't question him about it because he trusts in Piccolo's natural intuition to get the feel of an opponent before he fights him: a martial arts ability totally independent of ki detection. However, this doesn't mean that the Kaioushin is weaker than Piccolo. Since Kaioushin was only proven to be weaker than the Super Saiyans, who are in a different league to the Super Saiyans, I still believe that Kaioushin's somewhat stronger than Piccolo.

[Saiga]

Or Piccolo bowed out of resspect because he knew who kai-o-shin was. You keep overlooking some parts of my argument.

Piccolo assumed Shin was that much greater because he knew Shin was a GOD. It's clear that Piccolo didn't feel anything, because if he felt it, he would have said it the moment they were staring at each other, he would have mention something about power but he never did. He only quit after having his mind read, and with that he already figured Shin was a Grand Kaio, so he simply assumed their powers were miles apart.

The reason I overlook them is because there is literally zero basis for them.

And yes, he in fact does mention power. The line about "different dimensions" has been used many times in the manga and has always referred to a significant gap in strength. Including this time, there's eight occurrences of that phrasing being used in the manga. That makes the intent pretty darn clear.

[shonenhikada]

Or Piccolo bowed out of resspect because he knew who kai-o-shin was. You keep overlooking some parts of my argument.

Piccolo assumed Shin was that much greater because he knew Shin was a GOD. It's clear that Piccolo didn't feel anything, because if he felt it, he would have said it the moment they were staring at each other, he would have mention something about power but he never did. He only quit after having his mind read, and with that he already figured Shin was a Grand Kaio, so he simply assumed their powers were miles apart.

The reason I overlook them is because there is literally zero basis for them.

And yes, he in fact does mention power. The line about "different dimensions" has been used many times in the manga and has always referred to a significant gap in strength. Including this time, there's eight occurrences of that phrasing being used in the manga. That makes the intent pretty darn clear.

It has literal zero basis how ? Please explain if you want to omit a point.

[Saiga]

It has literal zero basis how ? Please explain if you want to omit a point.

Because there is nothing for it. It's hard to explain how something doesn't exist.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I don't mean to show off, but guys, read my explanation. I think it's a pretty good way of reconciling the statements to make sense.

[shonenhikada]

It has literal zero basis how ? Please explain if you want to omit a point.

Because there is nothing for it. It's hard to explain how something doesn't exist.

So your saying then that Goku, Vegeta, and Krillin sence Kai-o-shin power then, despite Goku still asking how powerful shin is at the end of the match. Please explain to me how you can deduce whether someone is stronger than you without sensing their ki ?

[Saiga]

So your saying then that Goku, Vegeta, and Krillin sence Kai-o-shin power then, despite Goku still asking how powerful shin is at the end of the match. Please explain to me how you can deduce whether is stronger than you without sensing their ki ?

No, I'm not saying anything like that at all. Don't put words into my mouth.

The fact is that though Vegeta and Goku couldn't feel his ki, Goku still thought that Piccolo would know. We're never given any in depth explanation of ki sensing, but it's possible that in that situation Piccolo could sense his ki where Goku et al. couldn't.

@Daimao

I didn't see your edit, will read it now.

Okay, having read it I disagree. I really doubt Piccolo lied, because I don't think he'd come to such a conclusion without feeling Kaioshin's strength. I think, had he not felt Kaioshin's strength at all, he wouldn't be so impressed. After all, Kaio is only a measly 3,500 so I doubt the others would hold such a high opinion of the greater Kaio because of their position alone.

[dbgtFO]

Yes it reminds me of Goku being able to tell that Cell is stronger than him just by looking at him without having seen him in action in his complete form. In the case of Kaioshin only Piccolo got to have Kaioshin standing right in front of him like that.
While I agree it's suspect(I used to argue the same stuff against Kaioshin being stronger), there's precedent for it being the case.

[shonenhikada]

So your saying then that Goku, Vegeta, and Krillin sence Kai-o-shin power then, despite Goku still asking how powerful shin is at the end of the match. Please explain to me how you can deduce whether is stronger than you without sensing their ki ?

No, I'm not saying anything like that at all. Don't put words into my mouth.

The fact is that though Vegeta and Goku couldn't feel his ki, Goku still thought that Piccolo would know. We're never given any in depth explanation of ki sensing, but it's possible that in that situation Piccolo could sense his ki where Goku et al. couldn't.

@Daimao

I didn't see you're edit, will read it now.

It could also logical be looked at that Shin was suppressing his energy and has ki control. Piccolo ki reading abilities in the entire series has not been shown to be different than any others, so while your saying I'm making stuff up, your also giving piccolo some special ki reading ability that he has not have.

The show has followed a simple premise. Certain people who have ki are able to suppress it, and are capable of bring it to the surface, only then can a character make claims of whether said character is stronger or weaker. It was evident in the battle against Freeza, when Goku thought Freeza was bluffing, and thought he had a chance to win until Freeza used 50% his maximum. It was also evident in the battle against cell when Goku was under the impression that cell was stronger than him, but then basically drops his jaw when he sees cell full power. Ki has always been used as a means to measure whether your stronger/weaker than an opponent.

Overall, the scene can be looked at as Piccolo finding out that Shin is God and therefore concluding that he is stronger than him, but never outright testing whether said statement is true. In short being dazzled by shin's title as God.

[shonenhikada]

Yes it reminds me of Goku being able to tell that Cell is stronger than him just by looking at him without having seen him in action in his complete form. In the case of Kaioshin only Piccolo got to have Kaioshin standing right in front of him like that.
While I agree it's suspect(I used to argue the same stuff against Kaioshin being stronger), there's precedent for it being the case.

Except the Goku and cell case is completely different. It was shown in the series that Cell power could be felt from the people at Korins tower. Goku didn't just outright instant transmission to Cell arena, stare at cell for 1 minute and say your stronger. He went to Korin powered up at half his maximum. Asked Korin then compare it to the power he felt from Cell's battle against Trunks and Korin then concluded that Cell was still stronger. Goku then exclaims he thought so. Goku didn't just come out of the time chamber and said cell is still stronger than me.

[Saiga]

It could also logical be looked at that Shin was suppressing his energy and has ki control. Piccolo ki reading abilities in the entire series has not been shown to be different than any others, so while your saying I'm making stuff up, your also giving piccolo some special ki reading ability that he has not have.

The show has followed a simple premise. Certain people who have ki are able to suppress it, and bring it to the surface, only then can a character make claims of whether said character is stronger or weaker. It was evident in the battle against Freeza, when Goku thought Freeza was bluffing, and thought he had a chance to win until Freeza used 50% his maximum. It was also evident in the battle against cell when Goku was under the impression that cell was stronger than him, but then basically drops his jaw when he sees cell full power. Ki has always been used as a means to measure whether your stronger/weaker than an opponent.

Overall, the scene can be looked at as Piccolo finding out that Shin is God and therefore concluding that he is stronger than him, but never outright testing whether said statement is true. In short being dazzled by shin's title as God.

...No, I'm not giving Piccolo any special power or saying his way of sensing ki is different. I was more thinking along the lines of Kaioshin revealing his power to Piccolo while still keeping it from the others. Of course, Piccolo sensing it while it was suppressed isn't impossible either - Kurilin was able to sense Trunks' Grade 3 power inside him when Vegeta was battling Cell.

And as I have said, we are not given any explanation of how ki sensing actually works. If it was so rigid, why on earth would Goku ask Piccolo how strong Kaioshin is?

The fact remains that Piccolo flat out stated that Kaioshin is stronger, and there isn't any evidence contrary to this.

[shonenhikada]

It could also logical be looked at that Shin was suppressing his energy and has ki control. Piccolo ki reading abilities in the entire series has not been shown to be different than any others, so while your saying I'm making stuff up, your also giving piccolo some special ki reading ability that he has not have.

The show has followed a simple premise. Certain people who have ki are able to suppress it, and bring it to the surface, only then can a character make claims of whether said character is stronger or weaker. It was evident in the battle against Freeza, when Goku thought Freeza was bluffing, and thought he had a chance to win until Freeza used 50% his maximum. It was also evident in the battle against cell when Goku was under the impression that cell was stronger than him, but then basically drops his jaw when he sees cell full power. Ki has always been used as a means to measure whether your stronger/weaker than an opponent.

Overall, the scene can be looked at as Piccolo finding out that Shin is God and therefore concluding that he is stronger than him, but never outright testing whether said statement is true. In short being dazzled by shin's title as God.

...No, I'm not giving Piccolo any special power or saying his way of sensing ki is different. I was more thinking along the lines of Kaioshin revealing his power to Piccolo while still keeping it from the others. Of course, Piccolo sensing it while it was suppressed isn't impossible either - Kurilin was able to sense Trunks' Grade 3 power inside him when Vegeta was battling Cell.

And as I have said, we are not given any explanation of how ki sensing actually works. If it was so rigid, why on earth would Goku ask Piccolo how strong Kaioshin is?

The fact remains that Piccolo flat out stated that Kaioshin is stronger, and there isn't any evidence contrary to this.

Except. Piccolo is stronger than the boys as evident by the fact that when Super Buu reverts back to him once the fusion has run out.

Piccolo > Kid Trunks (post RST)> Kid Goten (post RST).

Because I don't want to clog up the post I'm just going to post the following link for you to see and read which gives the following relations.

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8515914&t=8371634


SSjin 2 Goku (burst) > Yakon > Base Goku > Base Vegeta > Stage 2 Fighter > Puipui > Base Vegeta (expected) > Base Goku (expected) > Kaioshin > Freeza


If we follow the logic that kai-o-shin is stronger than Piccolo. Where saying Piccolo loses to a guy who was impressed at fighting at 10 x earth gravity, would give him an advantage in a fight. i.e Weak Sauce . This also leads to the question on whether kai-o-shin was aware of Freeza transformation, and when referring to Freeza was he refering to 1st form. We all know Freeza rarely transforms, and Kai-o-shin is lack luster in monitoring the mortal plane.

[Saiga]

Except. Piccolo is stronger than the boys as evident by the fact that when Super Buu reverts back to him once the fusion has run out.

Piccolo > Kid Trunks (post RST)> Kid Goten (post RST).

Because I don't want to clog up the post I'm just going to post the following link for you to see and read which gives the following relations.

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8515914&t=8371634


SSjin 2 Goku (burst) > Yakon > Base Goku > Base Vegeta > Stage 2 Fighter > Puipui > Base Vegeta (expected) > Base Goku (expected) > Kaioshin > Freeza


If we follow the logic that kai-o-shin is stronger than Piccolo. Where saying Piccolo loses to a guy who was impressed at fighting at 10 x earth gravity.

What? Where do the boys even come into this? And no, Evil Boo reverting to Piccolo doesn't prove he's stronger than the boys anyway. We see later on that Evil Boo with just Piccolo absorbed looks remarkably more Piccolo like than Evil Boo with Goten, Trunks and Piccolo absorbed - so the boys still have an influence on Boo. But, this isn't even relevant.

And that link is speculation... that isn't even relative here. Nowhere is it ever stated that Pui Pui is superior to Kaioshin, or that Kaioshin expects Vegeta to lose to him. He only tells Vegeta not to be careless. Kaioshin is frightened of the Saiyans taking damage and filling up Boo's shell. And Kaioshin's comment about not expecting to defeat Goku doesn't make him weaker than base Goku because he and Kibito already knew of their ability to turn into Super Saiyans.

[shonenhikada]

Except. Piccolo is stronger than the boys as evident by the fact that when Super Buu reverts back to him once the fusion has run out.

Piccolo > Kid Trunks (post RST)> Kid Goten (post RST).

Because I don't want to clog up the post I'm just going to post the following link for you to see and read which gives the following relations.

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8515914&t=8371634


SSjin 2 Goku (burst) > Yakon > Base Goku > Base Vegeta > Stage 2 Fighter > Puipui > Base Vegeta (expected) > Base Goku (expected) > Kaioshin > Freeza


If we follow the logic that kai-o-shin is stronger than Piccolo. Where saying Piccolo loses to a guy who was impressed at fighting at 10 x earth gravity.

What? Where do the boys even come into this? And no, Evil Boo reverting to Piccolo doesn't prove he's stronger than the boys anyway. We see later on that Evil Boo with just Piccolo absorbed looks remarkably more Piccolo like than Evil Boo with Goten, Trunks and Piccolo absorbed - so the boys still have an influence on Boo. But, this isn't even relevant.



And that link is speculation... that isn't even relative here. Nowhere is it ever stated that Pui Pui is superior to Kaioshin, or that Kaioshin expects Vegeta to lose to him. He only tells Vegeta not to be careless. Kaioshin is frightened of the Saiyans taking damage and filling up Boo's shell. And Kaioshin's comment about not expecting to defeat Goku doesn't make him weaker than base Goku because he and Kibito already knew of their ability to turn into Super Saiyans.

Fine want to play it that way. Just reviewed over the first scan, Piccolo once gotenks fusion times out shows the more dominant trait out of all the absorbers, so yes you are correct the boys show some influence, but since piccolo is dominant one he brings out more of the trait, indicating he's strongest of the three. The reason he appears more piccolo like in the second scan is because Piccolo is the last one to be removed from Buu thus piccolo shows more of his traits, without being suppress.

It seems you don't want to read anything and just be proven right for the sake of being right. Seeing that i just posted it and you immediately posted thereafter. Even though he knows of the SSJ transformation, he still thinks that the saiyans will have difficultly with Pui Pui who was impressed at 10x earth gravity, which shows he didn't think the SSJ transformation gave much of a boost. So in Kaioshin mind

SSJ Goku is probably 2x Base Goku or something along those line.

He also outright heard Vegeta claiming to be as strong if not stronger than Goku, yet still worries for Vegeta safety against Pui Pui, and considers Pui Pui a strong warrior. After Vegeta kills Pui Pui effortlessly he is amazed by the Saiyans strength.

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P13.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”

[Piccolo Daimao]

Okay, having read it I disagree. I really doubt Piccolo lied, because I don't think he'd come to such a conclusion without feeling Kaioshin's strength. I think, had he not felt Kaioshin's strength at all, he wouldn't be so impressed. After all, Kaio is only a measly 3,500 so I doubt the others would hold such a high opinion of the greater Kaio because of their position alone.

Why don't you think Piccolo would come to such a conclusion without feeling Kaioushin's strength? Even putting aside how most of the characters seem to be holding the Idiot Ball throughout the Boo arc (e.g. no-one realizing that Gohan should be alive after using the DBs moments prior; we've been over this), he clearly has a feeling that Kaioushin is a strange guy:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.3
Piccolo: “Wh-why…is it so hard for me to fight him?...Ev-Even though I've only just met him…”

Yet no-one, which presumably includes him too, can sense his ki, perhaps because he's suppressed it. And it's plausible for Piccolo to believe that he's stronger than him based on his position, because of his Kami influence. The reason that Gokuu and co. wouldn't hold such a high opinion of the greater Kaiou because of their position is because they're not an inferior god or have an inferior god affecting them from within.

I think that was my point. Or something. God, I hate this part of the series for making me overthink shit like this. Anyway, I hope you understand what I'm getting at here.

[Insertclevername]

Kaioshin is a dumb ass though.....

I don't see how...

His plan in finding Boo's shell was beyond impractical, so much in fact that it caused for the entire arc to unfold the way it did. With this in mind, I'm going to say that when compared to Piccolo, a much more intelligent and crafty person, the Kaioshin falls short. If his premeditated thinking is that bad, I'd hate to see his on the spot thinking.

[CaptainKatsura]

Base Vegetto vs Full Power SSJ3 Goku

Does the latter stand a chance?

[Rocketman]

No chance at all.