The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Mjb1985]

From the looks of it, it appears that because Gohan did not train, Vegeta and Goku are now stronger than him. Which suggests that Gohan indeed got weaker, and not just from not being enraged.

Considering that Vegeta straight up says that he was stronger as a brat as Ssj Gohan takes on Dabura, and the way Vegeta speaks in the text you presented, it seems clear to me that Gohan got weaker. I would think if you don't train for 7 years , getting weaker would be quite reasonable.

[Saiga]

From the looks of it, it appears that because Gohan did not train, Vegeta and Goku are now stronger than him. Which suggests that Gohan indeed got weaker, and not just from not being enraged.

Considering that Vegeta straight up says that he was stronger as a brat as Ssj Gohan takes on Dabura, and the way Vegeta speaks in the text you presented, it seems clear to me that Gohan got weaker. I would think if you don't train for 7 years , getting weaker would be quite reasonable.

Goku and Vegeta being stronger just means they trained until they were stronger than Gohan. If Gohan had trained, he would have gotten stronger as well and Goku/Vegeta wouldn't have overtaken him.

[Mjb1985]

You think Vegeta surpassed Kid Gohan?

[Saiga]

You think Vegeta surpassed Kid Gohan?

Sure do.

[Mjb1985]

Interesting. I take Vegeta's expectations of Goku being stronger than Gohan was, to mean that Goku was stronger than Kid Gohan and not Vegeta. I think Vegeta is more or less on par with Kid Gohan's power, but he didn't actually exceed it, only Goku did.

Do you also think Gohan was a SSJ2 against Dabura?

[dbzfan7]

From the looks of it, it appears that because Gohan did not train, Vegeta and Goku are now stronger than him. Which suggests that Gohan indeed got weaker, and not just from not being enraged.

Considering that Vegeta straight up says that he was stronger as a brat as Ssj Gohan takes on Dabura, and the way Vegeta speaks in the text you presented, it seems clear to me that Gohan got weaker. I would think if you don't train for 7 years , getting weaker would be quite reasonable.

Goku and Vegeta being stronger just means they trained until they were stronger than Gohan. If Gohan had trained, he would have gotten stronger as well and Goku/Vegeta wouldn't have overtaken him.

You pretty much nailed it. It was more Goku and Vegeta's training that created the gap.

Depending whether people believe Vegeta knew SSJ2 or not before the Majin incident depends if he was stronger then Kid Gohan SSJ2. If he did then of course Vegeta surpassed Kid Gohan SSJ2

[Mjb1985]

I don't know. The way the statement is worded, it just feels that Vegeta is saying " Well since Gohan stopped training, Goku and I were able to surpass him " . More or less.

I mean, why specifically bring up Gohan not training, and you and Goku surpassing him in the same sentence if they are in fact not related? Seems a bit suspect to me personally, but I understand your stance.

If you believe Gohan was a SSJ against Dabura, then Kid Gohan > Teen Gohan ( From weakening , not from not being enraged ) becomes factual. So it ties into the SSJ vs SSJ2 debate.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Vegeta assumes that he's become stronger than Gohan even before he feels his SS2 power at the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai (as marked by his disappointment at the fact that he was stronger as a kid), so it's safe to say that, at the very least, SS2 Vegeta's stronger than SS2 kid Gohan.

[Mjb1985]

But Vegeta seems to be influenced by Gohan not training for 7 years when he says that as well.

[Piccolo Daimao]

But Vegeta seems to be influenced by Gohan not training for 7 years when he says that as well.

But at that point, Vegeta doesn't actually know Gohan has physically decreased in power, which explains his disappointment at his SS2 strength at the tournament. Otherwise, he wouldn't bother commenting on it.

So we know that Vegeta has SS2 and is stronger than kid Gohan, if he knows that Gohan has it and believes that he's stronger, without having even sensed him at his full power yet. "Lack of training" does not automatically equal "drop in power". It may mean your skills can get rusty, but not a substantial decrease in ki.

[Mjb1985]

I look at it differently than you. I view it as...

1) Vegeta knows Gohan hasn't been training.

2) Vegeta assumes Gohan is weaker.

3) Vegeta is shocked by how much Gohan is weaker.


That's pretty interesting though, majority of people I run into do not have Vegeta > Kid Gohan, so it's pretty cool to hear that side too.

[Saiga]

I believe that: SS2 Vegeta > enraged SS2 kid Gohan > SS2 teen Gohan > SS2 kid Gohan.

Gohan matured and lost his ability to draw power from his rage, and got rusty, but polished up his skills and increased his strength by a small amount in his training, but is still inferior than his enraged SS2 self from the Cell Games. And Vegeta trained his ass off so that he'd have no equal. Of course, Goku's training in Other World was too much for him to keep up with.

[Mjb1985]

Jesus seriously? Man. I think I only know of one guy who ever argued that chain. Hmmm... So you think Gohan not only didn't get weaker, he got stronger! Wowza.

So where does Dabura fit into all of this? You have him superior to SPC I presume considering the quotes, and more or less toying with Gohan?

[Piccolo Daimao]

I look at it differently than you. I view it as...

1) Vegeta knows Gohan hasn't been training.

2) Vegeta assumes Gohan is weaker.

3) Vegeta is shocked by how much Gohan is weaker.

That's pretty interesting though, majority of people I run into do not have Vegeta > Kid Gohan, so it's pretty cool to hear that side too.

Well, I disagree. I think Vegeta was shocked that Gohan had actually become weaker, judging by his reaction at seeing his full power (SS2) for the first time in seven years, at the tournament. That's why he was so disappointed. And I think the reason Gohan was stronger at the Cell Games isn't because he physically decreased in power. Due to his special nature, he just couldn't gain power from rage anymore because he'd been training to sustain that.

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”
Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…”
Goku: “…Stop it?”

And then he says the same thing again when he actually sees him in the midst of the battle.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

So basically, in the beginning, Vegeta knew that Gohan had been slacking off, but he didn't know for sure that he'd actually dropped in power. Later, at the tournament, he's surprised and disappointed at the fact that Gohan was stronger when he killed Cell. And then the point is further driven home when he sees him fighting evenly with an opponent that he should be able to defeat, if he'd kept up his training regime.

And this:

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

further supports my theory that Gohan can't gain power from rage like he could when he was a kid. Because he hadn't continued training to harness that raw energy from anger, now, when he gets angry, he doesn't get a power boost. He only seems to retain it during the old Kaioushin's ritual to unlock his dormant power (beyond its limits), as shown in that scene where he gets impatient, screams at the old Kaioushin for falling asleep, and then becomes aware of how much power he has welling inside him. All that power is fully realized at last when the old Kaioushin finishes his ritual and he becomes the "mightest of warriors" that Piccolo talked about back in the Saiyan arc (if you want, you can even take it that a small bit of Toriyama's foreshadowing; Gohan does become the strongest unfused being we see in the series).

I believe that: SS2 Vegeta > enraged SS2 kid Gohan > SS2 teen Gohan > SS2 kid Gohan.

Gohan matured and lost his ability to draw power from his rage, and got rusty, but polished up his skills and increased his strength by a small amount in his training, but is still inferior than his enraged SS2 self from the Cell Games. And Vegeta trained his ass off so that he'd have no equal. Of course, Goku's training in Other World was too much for him to keep up with.

I agree with you, apart from the bit where SS2 teen Gohan's stronger than SS2 kid Gohan. I think it's like this (adding in SS2 Gokuu just for the heck of it):

SS2 Gokuu = SS2 Maouji Vegeta > SS2 Vegeta > enraged SS2 kid Gohan > SS2 kid Gohan = SS2 teen Gohan

Where does Dabra fit in there? That's a whole 'nother can of worms. I'm still entirely decided on the "Gohan: SS or SS2 vs. Dabra?" debate, especially when I'm figuring out battle power lists. I don't think he's holding back against Gohan, though. Him telling Bobbodi that he could beat Gohan was just typical villain arrogance, although I don't doubt that he was slightly stronger than Gohan.

[Mjb1985]

Don't you think Vegeta wouldn't be so tough on Gohan if that would be the case? Vegeta is disgusted and considers Gohan pathetic. That hardly sounds like someone who actually got stronger. I mean, Gohan just wasn't angry enough, what the heck dude. Lol. Unless Vegeta doesn't know about the rage boost? Which would change the meaning of him bringing it up I guess ...


@ PD


You consider Piccolo's " Perhaps stronger than Gohan " line as a throwaway line more or less?

[Saiga]

Don't you think Vegeta wouldn't be so tough on Gohan if that would be the case? Vegeta is disgusted and considers Gohan pathetic. That hardly sounds like someone who actually got stronger. I mean, Gohan just wasn't angry enough, what the heck dude. Lol. Unless Vegeta doesn't know about the rage boost? Which would change the meaning of him bringing it up I guess ...

Vegeta probably doesn't realise that kid Gohan's strength was amplified by his rage, so it makes sense to me for him to be comparing him to his strongest condition.

And when I say Gohan got stronger, I don't mean a noticeable amount. It just makes sense that his training before the tournament would increase his strength a little.

[Mjb1985]

Yes I was just mentioning that. Considering Vegeta's attitude to this far, far weaker Gohan, it does appear that Vegeta was unaware Gohan got a rage boost.

Him bringing up that he doesn't know what would happen if he went in the frenzy seems to further that thought as well. Where do you have Dabura Saiga?

[Saiga]

Yes I was just mentioning that. Considering Vegeta's attitude to this far, far weaker Gohan, it does appear that Vegeta was unaware Gohan got a rage boost.

Him bringing up that he doesn't know what would happen if he went in the frenzy seems to further that thought as well. Where do you have Dabura Saiga?

A bit stronger than SS2 teen Gohan, so roughly in the same league as him and SPC.

[dbzfan7]

Vegeta probably doesn't realise that kid Gohan's strength was amplified by his rage, so it makes sense to me for him to be comparing him to his strongest condition.

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…”

I think Vegeta is well aware of Gohan's rage boost.

[Mjb1985]

If he is, wouldn't he know what would happen if Gohan went into a frenzy?

So you take Goku's statement to mean Dabura = SPC then?