Thinking about it...

[Edward Newgate]

Future Trunks' past makes absolutely no sense. I mean, the Goku who died of a heart attack in his timeline is the same Goku in our original timeline. Everything went pretty much the same, except that they weren't aware of the 18 and 17's arrival in three years time. So they were unprepared, right? But obviously guys like Vegeta never stopped training.

Anyhow, we learned that the Androids killed everyone of the Z warriors except for Gohan, who managed to turn into SS. Then for 13 years he couldn't defeat the Androids. Why? How come a Super Saiyan, and one with lots of hidden potential like Gohan, couldn't defeat the Androids (who were weaker than the original timeline's Androids, according to Trunks) in 13 years? I am supposed to believe he never got stronger by training or by Zenkai, that he never got stronger by being angered?

[Saiga]

Future Trunks' past makes absolutely no sense. I mean, the Goku who died of a heart attack in his timeline is the same Goku in our original timeline. Everything went pretty much the same, except that they weren't aware of the 18 and 17's arrival in three years time. So they were unprepared, right? But obviously guys like Vegeta never stopped training.

Anyhow, we learned that the Androids killed everyone of the Z warriors except for Gohan, who managed to turn into SS. Then for 13 years he couldn't defeat the Androids. Why? How come a Super Saiyan, and one with lots of hidden potential like Gohan, couldn't defeat the Androids (who were weaker than the original timeline's Androids, according to Trunks) in 13 years? I am supposed to believe he never got stronger by training or by Zenkai, that he never got stronger by being angered?

I've always wondered this myself. It wasn't until his RoSaT training that he became anything special, though, so I assume there was some kind of "wall" inhibiting his growth until it was torn down during his training. That just never happened for Future Gohan.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Future Trunks' past makes absolutely no sense. I mean, the Goku who died of a heart attack in his timeline is the same Goku in our original timeline. Everything went pretty much the same, except that they weren't aware of the 18 and 17's arrival in three years time. So they were unprepared, right? But obviously guys like Vegeta never stopped training.

Anyhow, we learned that the Androids killed everyone of the Z warriors except for Gohan, who managed to turn into SS. Then for 13 years he couldn't defeat the Androids. Why? How come a Super Saiyan, and one with lots of hidden potential like Gohan, couldn't defeat the Androids (who were weaker than the original timeline's Androids, according to Trunks) in 13 years? I am supposed to believe he never got stronger by training or by Zenkai, that he never got stronger by being angered?

I don't see anything that doesn't make sense in future Trunks' past, and besides, you need to take into account the "butterfly effect".

Yes, Vegeta may've never stopped training, but then again, he could've had a temporary depressive "I'll never fight again" rest from training in the wake of Gokuu's death, having lost his rival forever. Either way, the Androids, who were foretold to be stronger than even a Super Saiyan, actually gave him a goal to train towards, so he would've trained that much harder.

And, confirmed by the Daizenshuu and the manga itself, Zenkais pretty much lost their significance after the Freeza arc. Apart from that Cell Games bullshit with Cell's "I'm back into my complete form without #18, and I've got some kind of SS2-esque power-up from regenerating from my own self-destruction too!" And even so, we see that the Androids were holding back on Gohan, so perhaps they didn't beat him so hard for him to ever get that many Zenkais in 13 years, as well as the fact that Gohan would've been training to surpass a strength that he can neither sense and is, in reality, much weaker than he thinks (because, as I aforementioned, the Androids were just toying with him). And, presumably, with all the super-warriors dead, he didn't have a sparring partner until recently, with Trunks, who himself was an untrained runt who was only as strong as he was because he's a Saiyan-Earthling hybrid, grew up in what was basically Hell, and was mentored by the strongest human on Earth who didn't have much teaching experience.

[Edward Newgate]

Future Trunks' past makes absolutely no sense. I mean, the Goku who died of a heart attack in his timeline is the same Goku in our original timeline. Everything went pretty much the same, except that they weren't aware of the 18 and 17's arrival in three years time. So they were unprepared, right? But obviously guys like Vegeta never stopped training.

Anyhow, we learned that the Androids killed everyone of the Z warriors except for Gohan, who managed to turn into SS. Then for 13 years he couldn't defeat the Androids. Why? How come a Super Saiyan, and one with lots of hidden potential like Gohan, couldn't defeat the Androids (who were weaker than the original timeline's Androids, according to Trunks) in 13 years? I am supposed to believe he never got stronger by training or by Zenkai, that he never got stronger by being angered?

I don't see anything that doesn't make sense in future Trunks' past, and besides, you need to take into account the "butterfly effect".

Yes, Vegeta may've never stopped training, but then again, he could've had a temporary depressive "I'll never fight again" rest from training in the wake of Gokuu's death, having lost his rival forever. Either way, the Androids, who were foretold to be stronger than even a Super Saiyan, actually gave him a goal to train towards, so he would've trained that much harder.

And, confirmed by the Daizenshuu and the manga itself, Zenkais pretty much lost their significance after the Freeza arc. Apart from that Cell Games bullshit with Cell's "I'm back into my complete form without #18, and I've got some kind of SS2-esque power-up from regenerating from my own self-destruction too!" And even so, we see that the Androids were holding back on Gohan, so perhaps they didn't beat him so hard for him to ever get that many Zenkais in 13 years, as well as the fact that Gohan would've been training to surpass a strength that he can neither sense and is, in reality, much weaker than he thinks (because, as I aforementioned, the Androids were just toying with him). And, presumably, with all the super-warriors dead, he didn't have a sparring partner until recently, with Trunks, who himself was an untrained runt who was only as strong as he was because he's a Saiyan-Earthling hybrid, grew up in what was basically Hell, and was mentored by the strongest human on Earth who didn't have much teaching experience.

Ah, I guess that settles it then. But what did the Daizenshuu say about the Zenkais?

[Piccolo Daimao]

But what did the Daizenshuu say about the Zenkais?

I can't quite remember, but I think it was something about them decreasing over time, as the Saiyans got stronger.

[Kaboom]

Even if people like Vegeta and Piccolo would train anyway, without the prior knowledge of the Androids, nobody would be training nearly as hard. Gohan, especially, would be set back into his studies by Chi-Chi and hardly improve at all from the power he had on Namek (a few hundred thousand, right?)

Saiyan healing boosts apparently stop or shrink after becoming a Super Saiyan, so Gohan wouldn't benefit much from those anymore after he transformed.

Gohan's rage bursts are short and fleeting, and might not be very effective against people who are both (A) a LOT stronger than him, and (B) have infinite energy and can bounce right back, even if they get hurt a little bit. They also might become less potent as Gohan grows older and less easily emotional than he was as a child.

With everyone else killed by the Androids, and places like the Room of Spirit and Time and gravity rooms supposedly destroyed, Gohan's not going to have any training partners, so he's not going to make power gains very quickly at all (bummer he never stumbled upon the benefits of mastering Super Saiyan). He finally got one in Trunks, but it seems Trunks still had a lot of catching up to do before he'd be a suitable sparring partner (if that short SSj Trunks vs base Gohan is any indication).

[Edward Newgate]

Yeah, I know now Kaboom.

Another thing. I know it's because of the plot and all, but the whole Android business could've been solved just by asking Shenron to find Gero and the Androids for them, wouldn't it? lol

[caejones]

True, though the strongest among them were more interested in the challenge than solving things quickly and bloodlessly. Vegeta at least wasn't going to let anyone try to stop Gero ahead of time, and Goku, Tenshinhan et al would have at least tried to discourage anyone from taking initiative anyway.
That doesn't mean there couldn't have been another way to find Gero's lab (like those magazines that Bulma conveniently didn't mention to Trunks in the future). Shenron would be extremely risky just because everyone would have noticed.

[Bussani]

Another thing. I know it's because of the plot and all, but the whole Android business could've been solved just by asking Shenron to find Gero and the Androids for them, wouldn't it? lol

To clarify what caejones said, Bulma actually suggests something like this in the manga. It pisses Vegeta off because he wants to fight the Androids, and when Bulma turns to Goku to back her up, he sides with Vegeta. Even Kuririn chimes in to tell her that it's probably a good idea for them to have a common enemy, so that Vegeta doesn't start causing trouble. It's a pretty fun scene.

[dprez]

Fact is, knowledge of future events made everything and everybody different.

Goku's training could've offset the heart virus. As his body and mind were in peek condition, his antibodies or whatever could of kept him healthy until a moment of extreme stress, like seeing Yamucha almost get murdered and realizing that the fight for the future is on, and it started with hundreds of lives being lost...

[Insertclevername]

Fact is, knowledge of future events made everything and everybody different.

Goku's training could've offset the heart virus. As his body and mind were in peek condition, his antibodies or whatever could of kept him healthy until a moment of extreme stress, like seeing Yamucha almost get murdered and realizing that the fight for the future is on, and it started with hundreds of lives being lost...

I never thought about that. I really like this theory! Sounds much better than "...umm it's like a different timeline, so things are different".

[dprez]

Fact is, knowledge of future events made everything and everybody different.

Goku's training could've offset the heart virus. As his body and mind were in peek condition, his antibodies or whatever could of kept him healthy until a moment of extreme stress, like seeing Yamucha almost get murdered and realizing that the fight for the future is on, and it started with hundreds of lives being lost...

I never thought about that. I really like this theory! Sounds much better than "...umm it's like a different timeline, so things are different".

Our Z fighters did things they never did in Trunk's timeline. To me, it's the awareness. They were aware of what would happen to all of them. They did everything in their power to prepare for their "death", and they succeeded. Although, we cannot forget about Cell. His presence alone altered history greatly. Coming from an in-Universe perspective, off screen events in both timelines altered history. We clearly see what triggers the major change in our timeline, ( Trunks coming to the past to warn Goku of the Androids.) but what we don't see I think is most important, conveniently so for Mr. Toriyama...

When he appears in our timeline again for the battle with the androids and witnesses the corps of #19, Trunks did not expect his presence to alter history so. He was right. There had to be a third party he didn't expect, and it was Cell.

[Bussani]

I'm not sure how much of it is really down to Cell's presence. I mean, yes, a butterfly effect means that even a small change in the past can lead to major changes, given enough time, but it's hard to imagine how Cell sitting underground, minding his own business, could lead to changes like the existence of #19 and #20 only a few measly years later. Of course, it may not be a butterfly effect at all and instead just a quirk of time travel in the Dragon Ball universe.

Or it could be something we can't really explain. Things like bad omens seem to exist in a lot of anime, which defy common sense. Cell's mere existence could cause someone's favorite cup to break or a picture to fall off a wall for no real reason, and even though no one could directly sense his presence, there's always a chance it was there, influencing things on a completely subconscious level. In a world where ki, spirits, and bad omens exist, a lot of things we wouldn't normally consider when it comes to time travel could be possible.

[dprez]

In a world where ki, spirits, and bad omens exist, a lot of things we wouldn't normally consider when it comes to time travel could be possible.

I really like this. Although, I believe that the reason the future was changed so much actually had to do with everyone's actions based on the warning they received from Vegeta and Bulma's future half saiyan son, Trunks. Cell was just an added anomaly.

The existence of #19 and #20, the increased strength of the androids, and the timing of Son Goku's heart virus taking effect are obviously the major differences. I believe that when Trunks appeared and killed Freeza and Cold, Gero noticed, and based his experiments on these events, and the power of those involved. In Trunks timeline, there was only the super saiyan, Son Goku, but we see another in our timeline, and so does Gero.

Not even Gero could foresee his ultimate creation, Cell, coming from the future to his timeline. I believe that Cell's presence, someway or another, fucked shit up.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I guess it's possible he monitored the battle with Freeza and Cold, but it seems very unlikely. He wasn't aware of Super Saiyan, and when Trunks showed up again, wondered who he was and why there was no data on him. I always assumed he just allowed them to gather DNA for Cell and left that project on its own. Didn't he say they stopped watching Goku when they left for namek because they had all of the information they needed?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The existence of #19 and #20, the increased strength of the androids, and the timing of Son Goku's heart virus taking effect are obviously the major differences. I believe that when Trunks appeared and killed Freeza and Cold, Gero noticed, and based his experiments on these events, and the power of those involved. In Trunks timeline, there was only the super saiyan, Son Goku, but we see another in our timeline, and so does Gero.

But that would be impossible, since Dr. Gero didn't know shit about the Super Saiyans.
My theory is that with Goku's death, Dr. Gero changed his mind about using #19, and decided to resume on #17 & #18. He re-programed them (making them more evil than the ones in the main timeline), and decreased their power to make them more controllable (explains why they were weaker than the ones in the main timeline). He also destroyed #16. He planned to release them the at the same place, day & time #19 & #20 would appear, but #17 & #18 killed him before leaving. The rest is history.

[dprez]

I guess it's possible he monitored the battle with Freeza and Cold, but it seems very unlikely. He wasn't aware of Super Saiyan, and when Trunks showed up again, wondered who he was and why there was no data on him. I always assumed he just allowed them to gather DNA for Cell and left that project on its own. Didn't he say they stopped watching Goku when they left for namek because they had all of the information they needed?

Hmm, yes, you're right EV. ONLY Cell could've been created partially based on Trunks, Freeza and Cold's power, without Gero knowing. After all, he left it all to his super computer while he worked on the androids.

The existence of #19 and #20, the increased strength of the androids, and the timing of Son Goku's heart virus taking effect are obviously the major differences. I believe that when Trunks appeared and killed Freeza and Cold, Gero noticed, and based his experiments on these events, and the power of those involved. In Trunks timeline, there was only the super saiyan, Son Goku, but we see another in our timeline, and so does Gero.

But that would be impossible, since Dr. Gero didn't know shit about the Super Saiyans.
My theory is that with Goku's death, Dr. Gero changed his mind about using #19, and decided to resume on #17 & #18. He re-programed them (making them more evil than the ones in the main timeline), and decreased their power to make them more controllable (explains why they were weaker than the ones in the main timeline). He also destroyed #16. He planned to release them the at the same place, day & time #19 & #20 would appear, but #17 & #18 killed him before leaving. The rest is history.

Wow. That makes great sense. I guess it's more like, Gero's Cell project computers noticed...

...

[matt0044]

I guess it's possible he monitored the battle with Freeza and Cold, but it seems very unlikely. He wasn't aware of Super Saiyan, and when Trunks showed up again, wondered who he was and why there was no data on him. I always assumed he just allowed them to gather DNA for Cell and left that project on its own. Didn't he say they stopped watching Goku when they left for namek because they had all of the information they needed?

I think then the Supercomputer was working on Cell then (possibly) so Gero paid it little mind so long as Cell was being worked on.

[Kingdom Heartless]

If we can assume that Trunks had only recently been able to transform at the time of Gohan's death, Gohan's lack of strength makes sense in many ways.

Characters always seem to go through greater growth when they have someone to train with, yet Gohan didn't have this.

Also, the Androids may have been less powerful, but they were a lot more fierce, making them likely a lot more dangerous, just as Chibi Buu was when compared to some of his other forms.

That, and characters powers are always convenient to the plot. There's just no disputing that fact. Which is why it astounds me when people get uptight when fan-fictions use "absurd" power-ups.