Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

[Fox666]

Someone else could say the same about No.18 and their base forms...

See that was never stated though. She says that they aren't ordinary humans, but unlike Trunks, she never explicitly says that she's holding back. Plus if she was, then she could increase her power just a bit and finish them off. It's too convenient that she can't win, yet is holding back.

Or it should be better to just ignore the vague mention about it in the Daizenshuu?

[Kaboom]

I'm tellin' you guys, it's an averages thing! The boys are way weaker than Eighteen in base, then way stronger than her as Super Saiyans, and right smack dab in the middle of those two you get "on par with!"

See? See?!

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

To play it safe, I always had the Base kids stronger than Ginyu but weaker than Perfect Cell. I have no idea where that places them.

[Mystic Gohan]

Someone else could say the same about No.18 and their base forms...

See that was never stated though. She says that they aren't ordinary humans, but unlike Trunks, she never explicitly says that she's holding back. Plus if she was, then she could increase her power just a bit and finish them off. It's too convenient that she can't win, yet is holding back.

When nothing is stated, it all comes down to using logic. And logic tells me that #18 wouldn't use her full power (which is hundreds of millions times higher than ordinary human's) against an unordinary human.

That's fine, but looking at the manga makes me think that Android 18 can't beat them. Also shows me that Trunks and Goten can't even go all out in the suit.

Someone else could say the same about No.18 and their base forms...

See that was never stated though. She says that they aren't ordinary humans, but unlike Trunks, she never explicitly says that she's holding back. Plus if she was, then she could increase her power just a bit and finish them off. It's too convenient that she can't win, yet is holding back.

Or it should be better to just ignore the vague mention about it in the Daizenshuu?

I don't use the Daizenshuu to make my hypothesis. I only use the Daizenshuu if it supports something implied in the manga. To me, Android 18 fights more or less on par with the base boys. It doesn't hurt that the Daizenshuu backs me up.

[Fox666]

To me, Android 18 fights more or less on par with the base boys.

They are clearly in disadvantage. Whenever this is only because of the costume or not, they are still the loosing part.

It doesn't hurt that the Daizenshuu backs me up.

It don't back you up because it doesn't specify which form of the kids it's talking about.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

What is the exact statement, again?

[Fox666]

He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No. 18's, until she managed to see through their disguise.

If you can call that an statement...

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Cool. Thanks for posting.

I'll just go with the Super Saiyan kids being stronger than #18 and leave it at that.

[Bussani]

This sums it up pretty well. I hope the argument about basing Trunks' power on his performance under 150g dies now.

While I agree that there must be more to it than just power, and that we can't really use it to guess how strong Trunks is, that sure doesn't change the fact that I find the idea interesting. My interest in the idea had nothing to do with guessing his battle power, personally. It was just something I'd never considered before, and logically it should be a factor, even though it's not the only one.

[Mystic Gohan]

To me, Android 18 fights more or less on par with the base boys.

They are clearly in disadvantage. Whenever this is only because of the costume or not, they are still the loosing part.

It doesn't hurt that the Daizenshuu backs me up.

It don't back you up because it doesn't specify which form of the kids it's talking about.

I see that they are at a disadvantage, but not at such a disadvantage that Android 18 can finish them off. That's the big thing. She can't beat them, so I don't see how she's suppressed. It pretty much does specify. SSjin Goten and Trunks are very much superior to Android 18. I don't think anyone will deny that. Their can only be one form.

[Xyex]

Not sure if I posted in the thread. It seems to me as if the kids are fighting at a disadvantage in base. The suit is blamed. Even when they turn SSjin, they still feel they are at a disadvantage. Not from power as they scare Android 18 shitless from a suppressed ki blast, but because of the suit. That being said, I see nothing wrong with the base boys being on par with 18. The Daizenshuu backs me up.

Except that simple, normal, every day fabric (likely the suit was just basic cotton) isn't going to impede them at all. Zip. Zilch. Nada. No reduction in power. Yes, because of the eye holes they had trouble seeing, and yes because of one standing on the other's shoulders they couldn't move quite as easily, but in the end their power remains unchanged. The suit doesn't limit anything nearly enough to even matter, no matter what the boys want to claim. It's presence is an utter non-factor.

Also, 18 is not 'scared shitless' by their blast.

Trunks' weight = 30 kg*
Goku's weight = 62 kg*
Trunks(regular state) could barely move around in 150x gravity(weight 4.5 metric tons).
Goku, with a battle power of no more than 90,000, was able to freely move around in 100x gravity(weight 6 metric tons).

So logically Trunks' battle power in his regular stage should be less than 90,000, while his Super Saiyan state should be less than 4,500,000...

I know this has been covered already, but I'll throw it out anyway. You can't really corrolate power and gravity. High level power helps to over come higher gravities that you're not adjusted to, but it's clearly not the only factor (or even really the deciding one). However, while not the only, or deciding, factor, it does factor in. It's extremely likely that if Trunks is having that much issue in 150g in base, he certainly isn't going to have a power in the high millions.

Yet, she still felt the need to use a ki blast.

So, you're saying that the only time anyone ever uses a ki blast in the entire series, ever, is when they're giving it their absolute, full power, nothing held back, all?

To me, Android 18 fights more or less on par with the base boys.

If they were anywhere near 'on par' with her they wouldn't have felt the need to transform.

[Nazi Cola]

He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No. 18's, until she managed to see through their disguise.

If you can call that an statement...

Yeah, but she saw through their disguise when they transformed, so the only way the first 3/4 of that statement makes sense is if it's referring to their regular forms.

[Mystic Gohan]

Not sure if I posted in the thread. It seems to me as if the kids are fighting at a disadvantage in base. The suit is blamed. Even when they turn SSjin, they still feel they are at a disadvantage. Not from power as they scare Android 18 shitless from a suppressed ki blast, but because of the suit. That being said, I see nothing wrong with the base boys being on par with 18. The Daizenshuu backs me up.

Except that simple, normal, every day fabric (likely the suit was just basic cotton) isn't going to impede them at all. Zip. Zilch. Nada. No reduction in power. Yes, because of the eye holes they had trouble seeing, and yes because of one standing on the other's shoulders they couldn't move quite as easily, but in the end their power remains unchanged. The suit doesn't limit anything nearly enough to even matter, no matter what the boys want to claim. It's presence is an utter non-factor.

Also, 18 is not 'scared shitless' by their blast.

To me, Android 18 fights more or less on par with the base boys.

If they were anywhere near 'on par' with her they wouldn't have felt the need to transform.

Not being able to move as fast despite having power can lead to your loss as USSJ2 Trunks and Weighted Goku showed. The boys statement overrides logic lol. Hell, most of DB overrides logic.

[dbgtFO]

In my previous reply, I made a minor mistake and said Goku would weigh 6 metric tons in 100G. Since his weight is 62 kg, obviously it would be 6.2 metric tons in 100G.
When I wrote that I was under the impression that the SEG had listed him as only 60 kg, but I checked afterwards and found out it was listed as 62 kg, but I forgot to correct my 100G calculation.

Now that that's out of the way..

Haha. I've never thought about it like that before, but I wish I had.

Based on a later reply I think I already got my answer, but I'm going to ask anyway
Do you mean that you never used the scene to compare Trunks' power with a previous known one or do you mean that you used to think about it in terms of which level they overcome without actually thinking about the actual differences in the weight they are lifting?

The latter is how I usually thought and how I think others, who bring up the scene, think, which is why the usual counter was something like: "Goku may have overcome 100x Gravity, but we don't know the minimum required power to overcome 150G, so you can't just say that Trunks should be this weak."

Then just recently it struck me, that Goku was an adult, while Trunks was just a kid, so Goku's mass should be significantly greater than Trunks', thus his weight could be even greater than Trunks', even though Trunks was using a higher setting.

It comes down to "could that ki blast have killed 18?"
Which is not given an explicit answer.

The kids made it so that it wouldn't.

The idea of calculating Trunks' battle power based on the weight differences is pretty clever.
If it makes sense in context, though, then fusion is a crazy power boost, isn't it? The absolute minimum power for Freeza's final form would be >100 million (using 1% in a form stronger than his >1 million form), right?

No, the 1% line is only in the funi dub.

So if SSJ Goten and Trunks are in the 4.5 million range, Gotenks would have to be something like (Goten+Trunks)*100, minimum.
Which, between fusion and SSJ3 doesn't actually sound that bad, now that I think about it. But it really doesn't seem consistent enough with what we're shown.

I would imagine the fusion boost to be ridiculously great, but I've already made that clear in other threads, so moving on.

Or a more solid evidence, Yamcha seems to have the same trouble as Goku had at first time in Kaio's planet, despite being about as strong as Raditz who supposedly lived in Vegeta planet for a while.

What's even worse about it is that, Yamcha wasn't even wearing weighted clothing like Goku was, though obviously Goku was still slower than Bubbles without them.

You could also point out that both Trunks and Gohan who are certainly way past that level noticed the difference in weight, when they entered the Room of Spirit and Time. Gohan even remarking his body felt heavy IIRC.

I know this has been covered already, but I'll throw it out anyway. You can't really corrolate power and gravity. High level power helps to over come higher gravities that you're not adjusted to, but it's clearly not the only factor (or even really the deciding one). However, while not the only, or deciding, factor, it does factor in. It's extremely likely that if Trunks is having that much issue in 150g in base, he certainly isn't going to have a power in the high millions.

Personally I don't really know the right way to look at it, though I really think there should be some sort of correlation between strength and weight lifting cababilities, as the Trunks example shows(can't move freely in 150G, goes Super Saiyan(aka getting stronger) has the time of his life).

What I did with that comparison was looking at it from the view of those that take this scene as proof of the kids not being very strong and see if an absolute maximum could be established going by their logic, which does seem pretty logical to me, even though I don't like the conclusion, like I said.

I just can't fault people for looking at that scene and concluding: Trunks' power in his regular state was too low to move around properly with a weight of ~4.5 metric tons, but as a Super Saiyan, it wasn't.

Though one may be facing problems, when trying to reconcile that logic with the examples already mentioned not to mention both Ozaru Goku(first appearance) and Piccolo in his giant form logically weighing several metric tons, though showing no extreme difficulty with their mobility despite weighing way more- and being weaker -than Goku, when he came to Lord Kaio's planet.

All in all I personally think it should work in the sense that the comparison suggests, but considering the examples it may not work that way in Dragon Ball, maybe due to Toriyama's logic being like that or his lack of logic making it so.

[Sanity's_Theif]

If they were anywhere near 'on par' with her they wouldn't have felt the need to transform.

This pretty much solidifies my stance, I think that because the series is simple, you need to think about it simply to find any kind of reasonable answer, instead of trying to bring math and whatnot in.

[Bussani]

Based on a later reply I think I already got my answer, but I'm going to ask anyway
Do you mean that you never used the scene to compare Trunks' power with a previous known one or do you mean that you used to think about it in terms of which level they overcome without actually thinking about the actual differences in the weight they are lifting?

Hmmm...kind of neither? I'm not really bothered about how strong Trunks is at all. I'd just never thought to myself, "Hey, he's lighter, so whatever his power is, it must be easier for him." I guess that's closer to the latter, but I don't actually care how it makes him stack up to Goku or anything like that.

[Saiga]

If they were anywhere near 'on par' with her they wouldn't have felt the need to transform.

That's not true. If they were dead even with her, then there would still be a need to transform in order to gain the advantage.

[Nazi Cola]

If they were anywhere near 'on par' with her they wouldn't have felt the need to transform.

That's not true. If they were dead even with her, then there would still be a need to transform in order to gain the advantage.

True, kind of like Goku resorting to using bursts of Kaio-ken to gain the advantage over Freeza in their warm-up, while not sustaining it.