No, both Vegeta & Trunks were just Super Saiyan.mysticboy wrote:I thought Vegeta was Grade II when was fighting the Cell Jrs.
The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
I highly doubt Grade II makes the user four times stronger though.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
It still makes the user a lot stronger & faster than his Super Saiyan form.Saiga wrote:I highly doubt Grade II makes the user four times stronger though.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Doesn't matter. It's nowhere near as powerful as Super Saiyan 3, so that's why it didn't matter that they abandoned it.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:It still makes the user a lot stronger & faster than his Super Saiyan form.Saiga wrote:I highly doubt Grade II makes the user four times stronger though.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Goku, Vegeta & Trunks abandoned the Grade forms & mastered the Super Saiyan form because they were putting too much strain on their bodies, making them getting tired too soon. Super Saiyan 3 tires the body body faster than any other form, and makes the fighter completely useless after that. Not the best form to fight, except if you are dead.Saiga wrote:Doesn't matter. It's nowhere near as powerful as Super Saiyan 3, so that's why it didn't matter that they abandoned it.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:It still makes the user a lot stronger & faster than his Super Saiyan form.Saiga wrote:I highly doubt Grade II makes the user four times stronger though.
On the other hand, about the Grades, I go by the theory that Super Saiyan Full Power replaces the normal Super Saiyan form, as well as Grades 2 & 3, and can draw the power of the Grade forms. The Daizenshuu says about that state that it draws out the power of the Super Saiyan to its limits. Grades 2 & 3 are sub-forms of the Super Saiyan form, they extend the power of the Super Saiyan even more. If we compare the Grades with Freeza's & Muten Roshi's Full Power "forms", it could be like this:
Super Saiyan = 50%
Super Saiyan Grade 2 = 75%
Super Saiyan Grade 3 = 100%
By mastering the Super Saiyan form, the user can go 100% without having any stress on his body or getting more bulked up.
I also believe that Vegeta, Future Trunks, Goten & Trunks (as well as Gotenks & Vegetto of course) are also Super Saiyan Full Power, because of the auras.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Ok, if we go the notion that Grade II is SSJ x 1.5, an FPSSJ would be 75x base. Then an SSJ2 would be 1.333 x FPSSJ. I suppose that makes sense.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Theory
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
The Grades don't seem to multiply the user's battle power, but rather than that, it adds more power. Freeza & Roshi didn't multiply their battle powers, they added more power to their bodies.mysticboy wrote:Ok, if we go the notion that Grade II is SSJ x 1.5, an FPSSJ would be 75x base. Then an SSJ2 would be 1.333 x FPSSJ. I suppose that makes sense.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Theory
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
They can tell Freeza increased his Ki, and the Daizenshuu even lists him with a different battle power. So why would you think that's not what is going on?DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Freeza & Roshi didn't multiply their battle powers, they added more power to their bodies.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
When Freeza went from 50% to 100%, he added 50% more power, he didn't multiply his battle power by 2. I didn't say there wasn't any increase in their ki. I said it didn't work like a multiplication, but like addition.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Huh, I see.
But I would disagree. So far all Super Saiyan transformations we are aware of the "formula" works by multiplying the power.
But I would disagree. So far all Super Saiyan transformations we are aware of the "formula" works by multiplying the power.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Actually, forget about it. Perfect Cell seems to have his version of Super Saiyan Full Power, since he had exactly the same aura as Goku in their fight, yet he could go Grade 3 against Trunks before. So, my theory doesn't work.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Nah, it could still work. Cell's power-ups may mimic that of a Super Saiyan's forms, but he's his own genetically engineered freak of nature. The same "rules" might not necessarily apply to him.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Perhaps, maybe he still can go into Grade 3 & Power-Weight because of Freeza's cells. So, I guess it doesn't contradict anything, nor does affect anything in the story, so the theory is clear.Kaboom wrote:Nah, it could still work. Cell's power-ups may mimic that of a Super Saiyan's forms, but he's his own genetically engineered freak of nature. The same "rules" might not necessarily apply to him.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
The point is, Grade II is nowhere near as powerful as Super Saiyan 3. A less than 2x boost isn't worth the strain, but you'd have to be an idiot to pass up a 4x one because of the strain. The benefit easily outweighs the drawbacks - just look at Goku and Vegeta vs Kid Boo. Both of them end up with zero ki anyway, but Goku is at least capable of putting up a fight thanks to Super Saiyan 3.DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Goku, Vegeta & Trunks abandoned the Grade forms & mastered the Super Saiyan form because they were putting too much strain on their bodies, making them getting tired too soon. Super Saiyan 3 tires the body body faster than any other form, and makes the fighter completely useless after that. Not the best form to fight, except if you are dead.
To not obtain the form at all, would be incredibly stupid of Vegeta. What happens if he fights a foe 2x stronger than his SS2 form? He'd get destroyed because he didn't have SS3, whereas if he had at least obtained it, he'd be able to finish him easily.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Goku said that balance-wise, Super Saiyan was the best, before he began his training to master the form. So it doesn't appear the reason they don't use Grade II or III anymore has anything to do with Full Power Super Saiyan.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Vegeta would have to train harder in his SS2 so that he can keep up with him. Anyway, that's just my personal opinion on this subject. I may change my mind later, who knows? You don't have to agree with me.Saiga wrote:What happens if he fights a foe 2x stronger than his SS2 form? He'd get destroyed because he didn't have SS3, whereas if he had at least obtained it, he'd be able to finish him easily.
I know. I'm just thinking of the Grades being combined into Super Saiyan Full Power because the Daizenshuu say that the Super Saiyan Full Power form draws out the power of the Super Saiyan to its limits. The Grades are sub-forms of the Super Saiyan form (which is why Super Saiyan 2 & 3 are not Super Saiyan 4 & 5), and since the Super Saiyan Full Power is called Full Power, puts extremely minimal strain to the body, and draws out the power of the Super Saiyan to it's limits, it could be possible to work like this. Nothing contradicts that theory, and explains why there was such a huge increase for Goku & Gohan after getting inside the RoSaT for less than a day, and later, why Trunks at the age of 7 is so much stronger than Future Trunks at 17 (if you believe that Trunks obtained Super Saiyan Full Power and is stronger than #18).Fox666 wrote:Goku said that balance-wise, Super Saiyan was the best, before he began his training to master the form. So it doesn't appear the reason they don't use Grade II or III anymore has anything to do with Full Power Super Saiyan.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Training only does so much, and his SS3 would always be stronger still. And I know that I don't, I'm just giving my own opinion. Sorry if I am coming across as rude.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Vegeta would have to train harder in his SS2 so that he can keep up with him. Anyway, that's just my personal opinion on this subject. I may change my mind later, who knows? You don't have to agree with me.Saiga wrote:What happens if he fights a foe 2x stronger than his SS2 form? He'd get destroyed because he didn't have SS3, whereas if he had at least obtained it, he'd be able to finish him easily.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
No no, don't even say that.Saiga wrote:Sorry if I am coming across as rude.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
The limit of SSJ is getting used to it, aka no longer feel the strain or whatever, and feel like you're in base form. This way you can use it most effectively. It can't be anything else because SSJ has never been said to be anything else but a 50x multiplier.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
North Kai vs. South Kai vs. East Kai vs. West Kai