If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

[Fox666]

Dude, Kaioshin is getting laid out in the same panel. Why would it not include him?
Lol nope. Krillin and Piccolo were completely unaware that Gohan was beaten by Boo. Piccolo only finds out when Vegeta says so later on.

I dunno, but I don't think there is some rule about who he must include or not.

Besides I tought you believed Trunks and Goten are stronger than Piccolo? Because Goten is with Kuririn and Piccolo.

Wrong, we was astonished just how much stronger the SSjins were. It is clear in the narrative that base Saiyans>Kaioshin while the SSjins/SSjin2s are >>> Kaioshin

That's just your interpretation. And it is not a clear subject, no matter how much you believe in your own opinion.

Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”

We can only say for sure that Kaioshin didn't expected Vegeta to win without even transforming in Super Saiyan. There could be more to it, but we can't take it for granted.

Context: talking to Goku
Kaioshin: “I’ve managed to pass the preliminaries too. It’d be nice if the match-ups allow me to have a match against you. Of course, I don’t have confidence that I could win, but I want to know just how strong you are.”

Can we take what the Kaioshin said here seriously? Because he talks like the tournament preliminaries are a big deal.

No, as I already proved he already expected the Saiyans to be stronger than himself.

Wow, you are so full of yourself. But sorry, just because you said you proven it doesn't make it true.

[Saiga]

Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”

We can only say for sure that Kaioshin didn't expected Vegeta to win without even transforming in Super Saiyan. There could be more to it, but we can't take it for granted.

To be honest, we can't even say that much. All it could be is that Kaioshin thought base Vegeta could win, but not with such laughable ease.

[Fox666]

I guess you are right, my bad.

[dprez]

Interesting. What is it that leads you to think the Base Saiyans are probably stronger than Kaioshin but not Piccolo? Just curious.

We can clearly see that Piccolo has power nearing the Full Power Super Saiyan level by his performance during the Cell games. Kaioshin on the other hand, has only proven to have very powerful "magic". Never once did we see him throw a punch or use a ki blast.

Maybe it's just a hunch of mine, and how I interpret the manga, but base Gohan lifting the Z sword so easily next to Kibibto who couldn't lift it at all, base Vegeta and Goku making fools of Pui-Pui and Yakon, and even the saiyans confidence in not using Super Saiyan at the tournament.

Piccolo's statement could mean this or that, but in the end I find it hard to believe Kaioshin is so great. Vegeta even says so himself.

Piccolo > Base Saiyans > Kaioshin. I don't think Kibito and Kaioshin are all that far apart in power, and base Gohan is possibly much stronger than Kibito by his Z sword lifting feat.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

We can clearly see that Piccolo has power nearing the Full Power Super Saiyan level by his performance during the Cell games. Kaioshin on the other hand, has only proven to have very powerful "magic". Never once did we see him throw a punch or use a ki blast.

True. We never saw him use a physical attack, but I usually chalk that up to his fighting style. It all seems to be based on magical/psychic type attacks. I don't think that really takes away from his overall capabilities, tho. His power is still a factor, since he even talks about how hard it was to stop Gohan with his Telekinesis. Piccolo could very well be "physically stronger" than Kaioshin, but based on sheer power alone, from what is shown, he's very much outclassed in that aspect.

Maybe it's just a hunch of mine, and how I interpret the manga, but base Gohan lifting the Z sword so easily next to Kibibto who couldn't lift it at all, base Vegeta and Goku making fools of Pui-Pui and Yakon, and even the saiyans confidence in not using Super Saiyan at the tournament.

I never really thought much of Kibito. I know Gohan thought he'd have to fight all-out in Base, but that might've just been based on his size. The Saiyans confidence in not using Super Saiyan can also include Piccolo and #18 as well. In fact, Vegeta would've been directing his "superiority" towards them moreso than Kaioshin, since the rule was thought of before they ever even saw Kaioshin. I also think none of them ever got a good read on his power. He just started acting like a lil pussy and that eventually turned them off from there.

Honestly, I don't think it's impossible for the Base Saiyans to be stronger than Kaioshin--I just think the same argument could be directed towards Piccolo in this regard. Of course, when considering the Cell Games, Piccolo shouldn't be weaker than any Base Saiyans (especially Gohan, who gained nothing in those yrs), but when you consider how convoluted things are in the Boo saga, anything's possible.

[FNF]

I dunno, but I don't think there is some rule about who he must include or not.

Besides I tought you believed Trunks and Goten are stronger than Piccolo? Because Goten is with Kuririn and Piccolo.

So if Goku, Gohan and Gotenks were all standing together and Gotenks says that Gohan is the strongest out of them, are we to assume Goku isn't included? Sounds like pure bs imho.

Krillin and co didn't know how strong the kids really were. It was only in the c18 vs kids fight and at the lookout where the kids shown off their power.

That's just your interpretation. And it is not a clear subject, no matter how much you believe in your own opinion.

It's the difference between characters saying 'might be stronger' and 'dimensions apart.' I understand if English isn't your 1st language but the phrasing is pretty clearly conveying just how much stronger the Saiyans were, not that they were only just stronger.

We can only say for sure that Kaioshin didn't expected Vegeta to win without even transforming in Super Saiyan. There could be more to it, but we can't take it for granted.

It looks pretty clear that he's talking about how strong the Saiyans are in general imo. They're is nothing suggesting he is referring to specific forms or even having them in mind at all.

Can we take what the Kaioshin said here seriously? Because he talks like the tournament preliminaries are a big deal.

He's just introducing himself to Goku. It doesn't seem like he's treating it like a big deal. Besides I see no reason whatsoever to discredit Kaioshin's whole statement on that basis.

Wow, you are so full of yourself. But sorry, just because you said you proven it doesn't make it true.

So the fact that it's stated without any conflicting statements doesn't make it true? I'm done.

[Saiga]

So the fact that it's stated without any conflicting statements doesn't make it true? I'm done.

The fact is that it is not stated. You're trying to pass your interpretation of what is stated as fact.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

There are only two possibilities: the saiyans in base form are stronger than Piccolo and Kaioshin with a good margin, and when they become super saiyans, they have a multiplier 5-10 times greater than the base form (see the Yakon fight). The other hypothesis the saiyans have a power in base form, which is far from the power of Piccolo and Kaioshin and when they turn into Super Saiyans (the multiplier of 50 times), the saiyans are absurdly stronger than Piccolo and Kaoishin.

First possibility:
Base Vegeta - 100
Piccolo - 40
Kaioshin - 45
Vegeta Super Saiyan - 600

Second Possibility:
Base Vegeta - 30
Piccolo - 100
Kaioshin - 110
Vegeta Super Saiyan - 1500

[Cold Skin]

There are only two possibilities: the saiyans in base form are stronger than Piccolo and Kaioshin with a good margin, and when they become super saiyans, they have a multiplier 5-10 times greater than the base form (see the Yakon fight). The other hypothesis the saiyans have a power in base form, which is far from the power of Piccolo and Kaioshin and when they turn into Super Saiyans (the multiplier of 50 times), the saiyans are absurdly stronger than Piccolo and Kaoishin.

First possibility:
Base Vegeta - 100
Piccolo - 40
Kaioshin - 45
Vegeta Super Saiyan - 600

Second Possibility:
Base Vegeta - 30
Piccolo - 100
Kaioshin - 110
Vegeta Super Saiyan - 1500

I don't think it's the second possibility, because if I remember well, Kaio Shin feels that Babidi's monsters are threatening, and the guys don't even need to transform to beat them until Gohan faces Dabra (granted, Goku does turn Super Saiyan and even beyond to use his trick on Yakon, but in a fair fight without the dark planet, would he need to transform to beat him?).
Kaio Shin is scared at the idea of Vegeta fighting Puipui on his own, and yet Vegeta takes him out effortlessly in his base form, much to Kaio Shin's amazement.
Isn't it already a sign that the Saiyans in their base form are already strong enough so that what Kaio Shin perceives as a threat is no threat to them?

[Xyex]

Isn't it already a sign that the Saiyans in their base form are already strong enough so that what Kaio Shin perceives as a threat is no threat to them?

No, it's just a sign that Kaioshin has no idea exactly how strong the Saiyans or their allies are. I mean, all he knows is that they managed to take down Freeza, he knows jack-shit about the Androids and Cell, so he's basing his concerns on out dated information, and the notion that mortals normally just don't get as strong as the Goku and the others do. And also on that M plastered on Pui Pui's forhead, which itself has the Kaioshin shitting his pants.

Honestly, if Pui Pui hadn't had that M on his head I don't think Kaioshin would have even given him a second thought.

[Fox666]

For the sake of it, it seems they can't sense the Ki of those who have been possessed by Badidi, with expection of Vegeta. There are hints of that.

[CaBrPi]

There's also the fact that any damage done to Vegeta in his fight against Puipui would've been turned into energy for Boo.

So, really, it makes sense to me to say that Kaioshin was more afraid of the Saiyans getting in over their heads and giving Boo all their energy.

[Gojira007]

What makes this whole discussion kind of tricky is that we never receive much in the way of an accurate baseline for how powerful Piccolo OR Kaioshin are at this point of the story. Kaioshin's shock at how powerful the Saiya-jin who fight against Babidi's minions are only tells us what his expectations of their power levels are, not necessarily anything about his own strength, and likewise the only opportunities he and Piccolo really receive for the enitre Arc to actually fight for themselves aren't terribly illuminating; Piccolo tears Babidi apart, sure, but Babidi himself isn't much of a Fighter, and Kaioshin's brief skirmish with Majin Buu likewise means little given how brief it is and how powerful Buu himself is already established to be.

Generally speaking, it feels to me like we are indeed meant to perceive Kaioshin as much stronger than Piccolo; my understanding was that because Piccolo sensed just how strong Kaioshin was, that was how he guessed his identity, so it makes sense that he did indeed quit knowing that he could not possibly win that fight. Likewise, the entire point of their brief match-up seems to be to get us to focus on just what kind of power Kaioshin must have if it's enough to scare Piccolo out of the Ring. It does indeed make it odd that Piccolo would have entered the Tournament knowing that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta were in it since they prove to apparently be much stronger than Kaioshin, but given that Toriyama's writing style, generally speaking, was to make this stuff up as he went along, it seems entirely possible that he had not yet decided that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta were going to blow Kaioshin away with how strong they were.

[Presto88]

The fact that this is even up for debate epitomises how poorly Piccolo was written into the final arc. Now I generally accept the Buu saga for what it is a wild and completely fantastical end to the Dragon Ball series (and for me at least highly enjoyable) that doesn't pay too much attention to the previously established cannon, hence the insane amount of augments over the larger points of contention including Vegeta's ssj level before turning Majin, Gohan's ssj level during fight with Dabura/Fat Buu and so on (Goku being weighed down by a mere 40t bugs the absolute hell out of me).

After being a fan of the entire mythos for over a decade I have come to accept that the only way to get past this stuff is by either accepting one of two things, take what the previous cannon has established and apply to said situation in which case answer x is apparent eg Gohan vs Dabura by this logic = ssj2 all day everyday and twice on Sundays or accept the event as it was written in the moment which will give you answer y eg using the same situation Gohan is only ssj as there is no lightning evident. Now that may be a cheap way to look at it, a sort of having your cake and eating it scenario but I believe that both answers are equally viable as there is truly no way to determine one answer over the other without blatantly disregarding already established facts.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way I'll get back to Piccolo, as I mentioned earlier normally I just let these things go without getting too caught up but considering Piccolo is my single favourite character of the series his treatment (by which I mean strength level and generally diminished role) was not only out of character but considering all that had happened before and the character we know he is made absolutely no sense at all. To elaborate on this consider all we knew about Piccolo once the Cell saga had finished, permanently merged with Kami the former Guardian of Earth, strength level in the realm of fpssj, Goku had died, Trunks had returned to his own time and neither Vegeta nor Gohan for separate reasons (none related to strength) would be suitable to replace Goku's role as protector of the Earth. Now with consideration to all that the Piccolo that had been established over the course of the story up unto this point would have taken it upon himself to assume the role as protector of earth which means that his motivation to continually improve himself would have been at all time highs especially considering the new found attachment he would have felt toward the planet (Kami's influence) and knowing that Goku would no longer be there to bail them out.

So in 7 years with this kind of motivation how he wasn't at the very least around Gohan's ssj2 level baffles me as it has been a point throughout the series to show that when Piccolo trained with purpose his gains were exceptional and in some cases phenomenal (he also never stops training regardless), in my opinion this was actually a point of emphasis for the character.....until the Buu saga that it is. By this time all though it is very hard to conclude exactly where he stands (refer to diminished role, he never actually fights and no killing Babidi wasn't a fight) it appears to me that he either a) hasn't progressed at all since the time skip or b) has actually gotten weaker.

While most of the inconsistencies in the saga are momentary they dont effect the story or the character to much of a degree, the same does not hold true with this essentially the character we knew is destroyed and relegated to the sidelines spending most of his time yelling at Trunks and Goten. I dont wanna hear any augments about potential as he had been shown to essentially be on par (as within the same realm, not equal) with the Sayians when it come to increasing his power, Freeza/android gap and rosat are testament to this and even if this was the case and his "limit" had been reached theres was no reason to write him totally out of character. Tien is the perfect example of this, a character who as the series progressed became more and more outclassed due to his own limitations but was always written as he should have been and never really presented out of character and due to his endearing nature there were even flashes of brillance throughout the series regardless of him being worlds apart from the top tier guys.

So after all that what I'm trying to say is that if Kaioshin was without a doubt weaker than the Sayians even at ssj1 level then it should have not even been up for debate whether he was more powerful then Piccolo or not, but the poor writing regarding his character (Piccolo) has sadly left room for such to occur.

[Titan]

So in 7 years with this kind of motivation how he wasn't at the very least around Gohan's ssj2 level baffles me as it has been a point throughout the series to show that when Piccolo trained with purpose his gains were exceptional and in some cases phenomenal (he also never stops training regardless), in my opinion this was actually a point of emphasis for the character.....until the Buu saga that it is.
I dont wanna hear any augments about potential as he had been shown to essentially be on par (as within the same realm, not equal) with the Sayians when it come to increasing his power, Freeza/android gap and rosat are testament to this and even if this was the case and his "limit" had been reached theres was no reason to write him totally out of character.

Well, i would love to see Piccolo closer to the Super Saiyajins, however, if we take away from him the fusions he
has made with Nail or Kami, he wouldn't be competitive at all against Vegeta, Goku or Gohan in the Freeza or Android arcs.
There are no fusions left for him in the final arc, so i can't imagine how he can keep up with Vegeta or Goku.

[Saiga]

He admits after stepping out of the RoSaT that he won't be of any help, and that's before he knows that Goku was only using half his power in his demonstration before. So from that I don't see how he can be above half of Goku's power. And given that Goku was training in the other world for those 7 years, I only see Piccolo falling even further behind the SS1 level, not reaching a SS2 level. To put it in numbers, I see it as:

Piccolo - 100
Kaioshin - 150
SS1 Goku - 300

[Titan]

He admits after stepping out of the RoSaT that he won't be of any help, and that's before he knows that Goku was only using half his power in his demonstration before. So from that I don't see how he can be above half of Goku's power. And given that Goku was training in the other world for those 7 years, I only see Piccolo falling even further behind the SS1 level, not reaching a SS2 level. To put it in numbers, I see it as:

Piccolo - 100
Kaioshin - 150
SS1 Goku - 300

Are you sure that Piccolo specifically said after stepping out of the RoSaT that his power is bellow Goku's demonstration?

[CaBrPi]

I thought Piccolo was sensing out Cell's power, not Goku's. It's been a while, though.

Does anyone have that specific line?

[Bussani]

He doesn't say anything to specifically indicate he's weaker than what Goku showed. I'm sure there's room for a different interpretation (there almost always is), but doesn't Saiga's assumption at least seem logical? They seemed to think Goku might have a chance against Cell after sensing half his power, but Goku told them he probably wouldn't. If Piccolo was stronger than that half-Goku, wouldn't he think he might have a chance? On the other hand, maybe he had surpassed half-Goku, but still had a feeling it wouldn't be enough. It's hard to be sure one way or the other, I guess.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

As suggested by Cell's line during the brawl with the Cell Juniors, Piccolo could easily be on par with Vegeta and Trunks as Super Saiyans. When Goku first comes out of the RoSaT, both of them would be considered utterly useless against Cell as well. And, just like they did, the Namekian could have easily gone back in the RoSaT a second time and remained roughly on par with them during the Cell Games.

I also don't see the gap between the the Cell Arc characters and the Buu Arc characters being HUGE, mostly some minor training to catch up to Gohan and unlock the new forms. I mean, Gohan didn't even train for those seven years, but everyone still makes a lot of comparisons to how they might be stronger than he was back then. So, if Piccolo was roughly on par with most of the Super Saiyans back then, he should still be in the same league as them when Buu appears so long as he kept training, even if it wasn't all that harsh. I HIGHLY doubt they surpassed him 50 fold, which is why the whole base Saiyans being stronger than Kaioshin being stronger than Piccolo situation is obscenely ridiculous to me.