Why is the Big Green/AB Groupe dub so bad?

[chaosakita]

This is a pretty random question, but it's driving me nuts. I watched the Big Green dub of Bojack Unbound, and the thing that really makes them terrible is that the dialogue is so fast as to be unintelligible at points. It's like the actors all have to take a deep breath before each and everyone of their lines.

So why exactly is the dub like this? Someone pointed out that the dialogue was to match the mouth flaps. But I'm not so sure about that. As far as I can tell (and I've tried to compare several times) the animation for Big Green and the rest of the dubs are completely the same.

[linkdude20002001]

I'm guessing the script writer paid no attention to the lip flaps, and just translated the dialogue (from French to English) and left it as is.

[TheBlackPaladin]

No one quite knows why the dub isn't that great...I mean, we can name the shortcomings, but nobody can come up with official explanations for those shortcomings.

Save one. The weird translation and name changes are, as linkdude noted, because the Big Green dub was translated from the French dub script...itself not the best translation. The AB Groupe provided the French dub to most other countries of Europe for dubbing purposes, though, so it makes total sense that they'd do that with the Big Green dub as well.

As for the other shortcomings...who knows? We can only speculate. I don't know why they made such strange casting decisions. I don't know why the acting is so...shall we say...odd. I'll tell you one thing, though, I would LOVE to see an interview with somebody involved in the Big Green dub. This dub is so baffling to me that it's intriguing. I'd love to know who was put in charge of writing the script, who was in charge of casting, where in Europe this was recorded, how many actors they used, what experience they have with voice acting, what sort of deadline they were working against...all stuff I'd be interested to know.

Has anyone ever tried to speculate based on the voices who the actors in the Big Green dub might be?

[linkdude20002001]

Well, the voice of Lunch sounds like the character Sissi from Code Lyoko. Her voice actress, Jody Forrest, lives in France. AB Groupe is in France. So, I'm pretty sure it WAS her, and I'm pretty sure the movies were dubbed in France.

[SM-dood]

What I want to know is if they even proofread the scripts in some cases. I mean, there's Launch being called a guy and Trunks occasionally being "Trunk".

[TheBlackPaladin]

Well, actually...another thought just occurred to me. I think I may have an explanation for why much of the delivery from the actors in this dub was rushed. The key word here is "think," it's just speculation on my part...but here it goes. It could very well be that part of the reason many of the voice actors in the Big Green dub deliver their lines so quickly...is because of the method France typically uses to dub stuff.

I'm sure many know already, but for those who don't, in North America and many other places around the world, dubs are accomplished using something that I refer to as the "Three Beep Method." First, the actor is played a preview of what they will be dubbing. Following this, the engineer will set up three beeps at a set rhythm to be played to the actor through their headphones. Based on the rhythm of these three beeps, the actor tries to imagine in their head where the fourth beep should be, and is supposed to start saying their line on this imaginary fourth beep, taking care to match the lip movements of whatever it is they’re trying to dub. You can see a clip of Johnny Yong Bosch doing that here for the dub of "Eurkea Seven."

In France, though, the method of dubbing is totally different. They use something called a "rhythmo band." Basically, rather than cue the actor with beeps, the engineer takes a blank strip of film and writes out the dub's script by hand onto the film strip (although they have since made software programs that allow the engineer to do this digitally). This film strip, the “rhythmo-band,” is then projected onto a separate TV screen beneath the main TV screen that shows the visuals that the dubbing actor will dub. Towards the left end of the rhythmo-band screen, a static red line is projected. As the visuals of the main screen move along, so does the rhythmo-band. Because the engineer took the time to precisely calculate how long everything should be pronounced, and adjusted the size and length of their handwriting accordingly, the rhythmo-band’s text scrolls from right to left in sync with the picture, and the dubbing actor simply reads the rhythmo-band’s moving text as it intersects with the static red line. For an example of this, here's a video of the French dub of Pokemon...fast-forward to the 3:29 mark.

That's a lengthy background story, and I apologize for that, but it was necessary to explain my theory. I wrote an article on the different methods of dubbing, which I shared with a number of my VO colleagues on Linkedin. One voice director brought up that she works with a studio in Los Angeles who tried using the rhythmo-band method, but they ultimately went back to using three beeps. They found that the actors were--

1. Focusing more on the moving script/text than they were on the on-screen visuals, and unable to perform as effectively.
2. A little overwhelmed by the occasionally fast speed of the rhtymo-band.
3. Occasionally thrown off by an engineer's less-than-stellar handwriting.

In theory, the rhythmo-band method is better if it's done properly and put in the hands of actors who are familiar with dubbing that way. Other times, though, if the rhythmo-band is sloppily prepared, or the actors are not used to it...you get results that aren't exactly boast-worthy. It's my belief that this is probably what happened with the Big Green dub. Firstly because, if this dub really was produced in France, they definitely used the rhythmo-band method. Secondly, while it's worse in some areas than others, you definitely get the feeling that they're reading their script very hastily. Whenever I hear that last clip in particular, I just have this image in my head of a stressed out actor trying to keep up with the rhtymo-band, taking breaths only where necessary.

Anyway, that's just a theory, but if it was true, I think it would be a logical explanation.

[superrayman3]

Snip

Neat that was an interesting read I already knew about the 3 beep method but the rhythmo band method wow I didn't even know that such a technique existed, it was interesting to see the rhythmo band method in action to say the least and is it just me or does the idea of the rhythmo band method sorta remind you of karaoke? Thanks for sharing TheBlackPaladin and you just might be onto something with why the Big Green dub was so bad.

[theoriginalbilis]

I don't think they intended for it to be bad. I mean they left in all of the original music and uncut footage, for one. And it's semi-accurate at points. I think it just had the misfortune of being low-budget, using non-native English actors to voice English dialogue, using the same 5-6 people for every role, and using a questionable translation (the French dub) as a basis for script.

That said, I find the dub highly entertaining. A couple of the voices are perfect for the roles: Kaio sounds awesome! ... Whereas the FUNimation dub tries to be "badass" and fails, the AB Groupe dub tries to be accurate and is so awkwardly written and inappropriately voiced that it becomes hilarious.

[wjbraden]

Wow, thanks BlackPaladin! I didn't know about the beep method or the rhymo-band. Now it make total sense why the Big Green dub dialogue is rushed.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I'm glad people enjoyed learning about it!

Having said that, I would like to state again that this is just my theory. After all, this is how all dubs in France are done, both the good and the bad. The fact that good dubs have come from the rhythmo-band method should be evidence enough that it's not a completely bad thing. It really becomes a discussion over what helps the performer more. Rhythmo-band advocates say that, while it does distract a bit from the on-screen visuals, if the engineer has done his job well then it's a great way to save time recording in the studio. Using the three beeps method, many actors have to play around with a line for a few takes to get it to a pace where it fits the mouth flaps, and with the rhythmo-band, this has been done ahead of time, allowing lines to be recorded much more quickly.

As "three beeps" advocates will argue, though, this is done at the cost of convincing acting, because actors are too focused on fitting the rhythmo-band rather than judging from the animation how and when to deliver their lines. There's no right or wrong here, it's really a matter of preference. I haven't done any actual ADR work yet, but I've been training for it for a while by setting up Pro Tools sessions in my booth that mimic ADR sessions, in this case using the three beeps method. Training myself in the rhythmo-band method would not be that practical given how rarely it's used in North America, but they have released rhtymo-band software programs. If any are so inclined, here's a link to one (with a video that you can practice on yourself).

Anyway, back on topic. With either method, it takes skill and preparation from the writers (who hopefully phrased the dub dialogue in such a way that it's loyal to the original script but fits the mouth flaps naturally), the engineers (who place the three beeps or write on the rhythmo-band) and the actors (who need to deliver a convincing performance that fits naturally with the mouth flaps). So I don't know for a fact that the rhythmo-band is to blame for the rushed delivery, especially since I wasn't there in the studio when they recorded the dub. It just struck me that, in the case of the Big Green dub, based on the rushed delivery, it's entirely possible that the actors were a tad overwhelmed trying to fit in their lines as they moved along the hastily-scrolling rhythmo-band.

...and is it just me or does the idea of the rhythmo band method sorta remind you of karaoke?

Hmmm....'ya know, I never really thought about it that way, but....yeah. Yeah, it kinda does. Maybe I should call it the karaoke method from now on, lol!

[Fulicer]

Well it's being dubbed in English by non-native speakers, so there is that factor working against them. I mean they do speak English pretty well and many of the voices don't have foreign accents, but some of the phrasing is strange. Like when Paragus is being being crushed by Broly, he says something like "woooa, aaahhha, ohhhhh! Perished at the hand of my own son! Not that! No! Why has destiny conspired against me so tragically??!" It's like poor man's Shakespeare. There are some other gems too.

The English Malaysian and Filipino dubs have similar problems in regards to speech. The latter had a hilariously deep voice for Coola...I've only found a couple of clips for it. I need the whole movie.