Kid Buu

[TheMightyOzaru]

Can you specify ANY other times that's actually shown?

Its in the comment.

[Mystic Gohan]

Yes I understand the argument. Anyway, Dai Kaioshin is stated to be the ONLY Kaioshin to affect Buu abnormally. What does that tell you about South Kaioshin?

No... no it is not stated that Daikaio is the only one that weakened Buu. If you are going to suggest something provide proof.

Furthermore, Buff Buu is the one that is stated to be stronger than Super Buu. When Kid Buu forms, Goku states that they will be able to manage something against him. Not to mention Goku fights on par with Kid Buu. Because Super Buu is >>> SSjin 3 Goku, by your reasoning, Kid Buu would also be >>> SSjin 3 Goku. However, that contradicts the fight between Kid Buu and Goku.

Before you bring up that Kid Buu was simply holding back, let me address that point now. Kid Buu demolished Good Buu and SSjin 2 Vegeta without any mercy. Why would he hold back against SSjin 3 Goku for no reason?

No... no it is not stated that Daikaio is the only one that weakened Buu. If you are going to suggest something provide proof. Again read my comment. I went into to detail about the whole Goku vs Kid Buu thing.

He is stated to be the only one to affect Buu abnormally. I can't read your post. It hurts my eyes remember? That quote won't be in strength checker, so...

[TheMightyOzaru]

[quote="Hitiro"]The initial quote before this though was in reference to when Buu reverted to his buff self. In that quote Goku mentions that his ki is growing. This means that the Southern Kaioshin must of had some increased effect on Majin Buu's ki. You could say that this has no relevance as he was just reverting but no point was made that his ki continued to grow after he started to turn into Kid Buu. The only quote we see is that he shrinks, and by herms definition it is probably on about his size. We don't know if Buu's ki continued to increase during the transition between his Buff form and his original form. We only know that it increases between Super Buu and Buff Buu. There is no evidence to support that Kid Buu gained or loss ki when reverting to his original self. I however take what Kibito Kaioshin said with a grain of salt. My theory is that all absorptions have a weakening effect on him if the person has a good nature.


Apparently you missed the point I had made Earlier about Kid Buu being superior to the Buff Buu which also means Kid Buu is superior to Super Buu. Ok first of all why would the Ki decrease when I just said that Kaioshin influence decreases Buu's power. Remember this is a solid theory this isnt fact but this theory relies on the idea that Kaioshin influence is generally negative. There are times in the manga where this is brought up. What i personally find funny is that oh the Buu reacted negatively to the magic of the potara, Buu reacted negatively to the good nature of Daikaio, Kaioshin's energy is just incompatible with that of Buu's. Jeez from what I'm noticing here is a trend. A trend that anything Kai related seems to have an abnormal effect. Whether you view it as negativity or some strange reaction is up to you. I think its general negativity. These are solid theory's that do work. Is Kid Buu factually superior to me? No I could go either way this whole subject is just unnecessarily complicated because of all the evidence for both sides. Both sides have an argument and I just think the Kid Buu argument holds a bit more water. Heck you know what I would love? Just for someone to interview Toriyama and just straight up ask the guy who is superior.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Yes I understand the argument. Anyway, Dai Kaioshin is stated to be the ONLY Kaioshin to affect Buu abnormally. What does that tell you about South Kaioshin?

No... no it is not stated that Daikaio is the only one that weakened Buu. If you are going to suggest something provide proof.

Furthermore, Buff Buu is the one that is stated to be stronger than Super Buu. When Kid Buu forms, Goku states that they will be able to manage something against him. Not to mention Goku fights on par with Kid Buu. Because Super Buu is >>> SSjin 3 Goku, by your reasoning, Kid Buu would also be >>> SSjin 3 Goku. However, that contradicts the fight between Kid Buu and Goku.

Before you bring up that Kid Buu was simply holding back, let me address that point now. Kid Buu demolished Good Buu and SSjin 2 Vegeta without any mercy. Why would he hold back against SSjin 3 Goku for no reason?

No... no it is not stated that Daikaio is the only one that weakened Buu. If you are going to suggest something provide proof. Again read my comment. I went into to detail about the whole Goku vs Kid Buu thing.

He is stated to be the only one to affect Buu abnormally. I can't read your post. It hurts my eyes remember? That quote won't be in strength checker, so...

Dude show me where this is stated. It is nonexistent.

[Mystic Gohan]

Dude show me where this is stated. It is nonexistent.

I've seen the quote and used it to debunk many Kid Buu > Super Buu guys. Not one of em have ever questioned it. I'm not about to spend twenty minutes of my time looking for the exact panel and chapter where the quote is. This stuff ain't that important to me.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Dude show me where this is stated. It is nonexistent.

I've seen the quote and used it to debunk many Kid Buu > Super Buu guys. Not one of em have ever questioned it. I'm not about to spend twenty minutes of my time looking for the exact panel and chapter where the quote is. This stuff ain't that important to me.

Dude saying you saw something isnt enough. You have to provide evidence.

[TheMightyOzaru]

• Dai Kaioshin's influence on Boo
  Dai Kaioshin is exceptional. This is crystal clear to everyone.
  
  Kaioshin & Kibito's energy unavailable to revive Boo
  Well, that kind of energy (not power) doesn't help Boo.
  Reason: Not really important. Perhaps Kaioshins' energy is just too different from everyone else's in the galaxy.
  
  Potara Fusion terminating inside Boo
  Magic vs magic.

Simple enough?
Now, go on and try this simply explain the things that are in Evil Boo > Pure Boo theory's favor.

Well lets see here if Kaioshin energy doesnt increase or decrease Buu's power that would mean that Southern Kaioshin Buu is equal to Kid Buu. That being said Kid Buu is still more powerful because Southern Kaioshin Buu was stated to be stronger than Super Buu.

[dbzfan7]

Dude show me where this is stated. It is nonexistent.

I've seen the quote and used it to debunk many Kid Buu > Super Buu guys. Not one of em have ever questioned it. I'm not about to spend twenty minutes of my time looking for the exact panel and chapter where the quote is. This stuff ain't that important to me.

Dude saying you saw something isn't enough. You have to provide evidence.

Other then my previous post, in the Daizenshuu 7, Dai Kaioshin is the only one mentioned weakening Kid Boo while South Kaioshin wasn't mentioned weakening him.

The quote says absorption when mentioned by Kibitoshin, which can mean 1 or 2, but as stated in the Daiz, only Dai Kaioshin weakened him.

Also when has growing muscles ever made you weaker in DBZ. It's practically a fact that every time your muscles grow, your strength increases.

Referring to one of my last points, Goku always believed he could beat Kid Boo without fusion, he never believed he could beat Super Boo without fusion. If Kid Boo was stronger, why would Goku want to fight someone stronger then Super Boo alone after he said fusion was the only way to beat Super Boo. Logically fighting someone stronger then Super Boo would be pointless when fusion was already needed to beat Super Boo.

[Bussani]

What if... what if the Grand Kaioshin's power WAS added to Majin Boo, but his kindness canceled out all the evil power that Boo already had, leaving only the Grand Kaioshin's power in the form of Fat Boo?

That's kind of how I see it. Power is more than just addition and subtraction. He may have gained Dai Kaioshin's power, but the gentle, good-hearted Dai Kaioshin also had a big influence on Buu personality, and ki is very strongly influenced by personality. There could well be other kinds of non-Kaioshin folk who would lower Buu's power if he tried absorbing them, depending on what sort of personalities they might have. For instance, imagine he absorbed the biggest coward in the universe and became a snivelling wimp; that could seriously affect his ability to draw out his power.

[Saiga]

I could very easily see it being represented like this:

(Pure Boo + South Kaioshin + Dai Kaioshin) / Dai Kaioshin's goodness factor = Fat Boo.

Or - instead of / but you get the general idea.

[Kaboom]

For instance, imagine he absorbed the biggest coward in the universe and became a sniveling wimp; that could seriously affect his ability to draw out his power.

So Grand or East Kaioshin would have each rendered Boo weakened in their own way if absorbed, huh?

[dbzfan7]

For the whole quote about not using Kaioshin energy, nothing says it's because it weakens him. I say it's because there is no telling how Kaioshin energy can effect Boo. Boo always had control over his absorption process. When he absorbed people he would keep his mentality but be slightly influenced and stronger. When he absorbed South Kaioshin, he was relatively the same Boo with no personality change. When he absorbed Dai Kaioshin, he changed completely and wasn't the same Boo anymore, He had a whole other mentality. Babidi probably would not want to risk that kind of a change that could further alter his mentality. South Kaioshin was never elaborated on besides that he was the strongest. He could have been stupid(brawn over brains guy), and absorbing him could have made Boo dumber. It could explain why he would absorb Dai Kaioshin after he already absorbed the strongest Kaioshin. What threat was Dai Kaioshin.

[Herms]

For instance, imagine he absorbed the biggest coward in the universe and became a sniveling wimp; that could seriously affect his ability to draw out his power.

So Grand or East Kaioshin would have each rendered Boo weakened in their own way if absorbed, huh?

Oob is really just Boo with East Kaioshin absorbed.

[Bussani]

I could very easily see it being represented like this:

(Pure Boo + South Kaioshin + Dai Kaioshin) / Dai Kaioshin's goodness factor = Fat Boo.

Or - instead of / but you get the general idea.

And then:

(Pure Buu + South Kaioshin + Dai Kaioshin) * a body built for fighting = Evil Buu.

Or something maybe.

[Fox666]

Kibito Kai never says that just Daikaio. He just says absorption which can mean absorption generally.

Kaioshin is very clear that only Dai Kaioshin decreased Boo's power. I don't know why you stick which the ambiguity of a single word that has no effect in the text as a whole.

Now based on the few times that Kaioshin influence is generally viewd as negative to Buu

Such a thing has never been said in the series.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You complicate things to support your opinion that Pure Boo > Evil Boo by complicating simple things in the manga that prove otherwise.

[Hitiro]

Apparently you missed the point I had made Earlier about Kid Buu being superior to the Buff Buu which also means Kid Buu is superior to Super Buu. Ok first of all why would the Ki decrease when I just said that Kaioshin influence decreases Buu's power. Remember this is a solid theory this isnt fact but this theory relies on the idea that Kaioshin influence is generally negative. There are times in the manga where this is brought up. What i personally find funny is that oh the Buu reacted negatively to the magic of the potara, Buu reacted negatively to the good nature of Daikaio, Kaioshin's energy is just incompatible with that of Buu's. Jeez from what I'm noticing here is a trend. A trend that anything Kai related seems to have an abnormal effect. Whether you view it as negativity or some strange reaction is up to you. I think its general negativity. These are solid theory's that do work. Is Kid Buu factually superior to me? No I could go either way this whole subject is just unnecessarily complicated because of all the evidence for both sides. Both sides have an argument and I just think the Kid Buu argument holds a bit more water. Heck you know what I would love? Just for someone to interview Toriyama and just straight up ask the guy who is superior.

And you are clearly ignoring the rest of my post and only picking things in it that you feel you can pick holes in. If you read the rest of my post I clearly break down why Kid Buu can't be stronger than Super Buu or even Buff Buu. So I'll explain it yet again.

1. Goku has stated he can defeat Kid Buu at full power and fresh.

2. Goku prevented Vegeta from blowing a hole in Super Buu to exit because neither him nor Vegeta could beat him. So he suggests fusion.

So, so far as we know Super Buu must be stronger if Goku clearly tells Vegeta that they can't win without fusion. Lets take this a little further.

3. Goku has faith a fusion between the kids will defeat Fat Buu. We know from the little comedy part that Base Gotenks can't but we must assume that SSJ Gotenks can by the fact that of how much faith they put into the fusion technique.

4. This would make Base Gotenks >>>> Base Goku. Why? Because all SSJ forms are merely modifiers for their base forms so if SSJ Gotenks(Pre-ROSAT) can apparently fight on par with Fat Buu and possibly beat him then Gotenks must be at least 8 times stronger than Goku in his base form for his SSJ to match Goku's SSJ3, perhaps a little less as he may be weaker. We know that Goku can't beat Fat Buu without SSJ3 so this stands by itself.

5. This also means that SSJ3 Gotenks >>>> SSJ3 Goku. Gotenks power is still 8x stronger than Goku's in this form for his obvious base powerlevel advantage.

6. Super Buu states that his only threat is Gohan. This means that he is confident he could beat SSJ3 Gotenks but he stalled to use up the kids fusion so he could absorb them when they have a fresh fusion to beat Gohan.

7. If Super Buu states that his only threat is Gohan then it stands to reason that he's at least a little stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Meaning he's 8 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

So what do we learn from this? Unless Goku is some sort of god who just keeps increasing in battle power then Kid Buu, who is around SSJ3 Goku's level is STILL 8 times weaker than Super Buu. So, when his power increased by becoming Buff Buu, it did go back down.

[hleV]

• Kaioshin & Kibito's energy unavailable to revive Boo
  Well, that kind of energy (not power) doesn't help Boo.
  Reason: Not really important. Perhaps Kaioshins' energy is just too different from everyone else's in the galaxy.

Well lets see here if Kaioshin energy doesnt increase or decrease Buu's power that would mean that Southern Kaioshin Buu is equal to Kid Buu. That being said Kid Buu is still more powerful because Southern Kaioshin Buu was stated to be stronger than Super Buu.

Um... no. Kaioshins' energy cannot be used to be added to Boo's energy. Energy isn't power. The power is already in Boo, he just needs the energy to awaken... well... energetic. One can't use their full power without the energy (as in being tired).

[Mystic Gohan]

Dude show me where this is stated. It is nonexistent.

I've seen the quote and used it to debunk many Kid Buu > Super Buu guys. Not one of em have ever questioned it. I'm not about to spend twenty minutes of my time looking for the exact panel and chapter where the quote is. This stuff ain't that important to me.

Dude saying you saw something isnt enough. You have to provide evidence.

That's okay, would rather pick your argument apart with clear power statements from the manga. Goku says they will die against Super Buu.

Super Buu >>> SSjin 3 Goku stated.

Goku says that they can manage something against Kid Buu.

Super Buu >>> Kid Buu implied.

SSjin 3 Goku proceeds to fight evenly with Kid Buu.

Kid Buu > Super Buu >>> SSjin 3 Goku ~ Kid Buu is impossible.

[smiley]

Beating the dead horse...