I don't think racism is over. I see it everywhere. I see Facebook pages dedicated to the fact that wearing a burka apparently makes you a terrorist.I think your heart's in the right place, but it's not for idealists to decree "racism is over! now we can all get along~".
Would these black characters by today's standards be changed
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Kingdom Heartless
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Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
Yo! Cal's the name. Nice to meet you!
Lover of all that is pure and fun in the worlds of Dragon Ball, Jim Henson and so forth!
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Lover of all that is pure and fun in the worlds of Dragon Ball, Jim Henson and so forth!
3DS Friend Code 1418-7854-8786. I'm always playing Pokemon, so PM me yours for Friend Safari and battling! :D
Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
You honestly believe Mr. Popo was intended racist? You know toriyama uses those lips and eyes on a lot of other designs. He wasn't even intended to be a human being.Rocketman wrote:Do you think racism can't express itself just because something is designated "for children"?TRL wrote:Well talking about when it actually occurs is fine. But the hypersensitivity to see it in a children's cartoon does more harm than good.
Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
I agree with this, However... If you look at the new “Refreshed” Tankōbon spine, you will see a blue Popo with light blue lips... http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/spine-art/TRL wrote:You honestly believe Mr. Popo was intended racist? You know toriyama uses those lips and eyes on a lot of other designs. He wasn't even intended to be a human being.
"If I tried to re-create the original voice I think I would run the risk of hitting a note so high that I may not be able to have children in future life." - Peter Kelamis
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VegettoEX
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Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
I would certainly argue that there's likely very little "intended" racism (as in drawing with an exclusive purpose of negatively portraying a race) from Toriyama, but when transferred to a worldwide audience, Mr. Popo is definitely derived from ignorance.
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Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
It can be that while Dragon Ball was in serialization, Toriyama was ignorant of the possibility of Mr. Popo's color being unintentionally racist. However, these days it seems that he might have discovered that outside Japan people might find it racist so he did like what Nintendo did with Jynx from Pokemon and made him blue. Which is kind of ironic considering the scorn people have been giving 4kids Toonzai for the "Blue Popo" edit, only to have Toriyama do the same thing.
That being said, I'm not saying that making Mr. Popo blue was a choice by Toriyama because of a racial issue, it could just be another random color change that he seems to do with his DB artwork.
That being said, I'm not saying that making Mr. Popo blue was a choice by Toriyama because of a racial issue, it could just be another random color change that he seems to do with his DB artwork.
"If I tried to re-create the original voice I think I would run the risk of hitting a note so high that I may not be able to have children in future life." - Peter Kelamis
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
Can't find him...Xagani wrote:If you look at the new “Refreshed” Tankōbon spine, you will see a blue Popo with light blue lips... http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/spine-art/
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
He's hidden behind the ‘A’.
Blue wrote:I love how Season 2 is so off color even the box managed to be so.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
Found him! Even if he is not very visible due to being split in two volumes, I can see him being blue. Have we ever seen Mr. Popo colored in the manga? I don't remember.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
I don't think so. This is the one and only time I've seen him blue in the manga.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Found him! Even if he is not very visible due to being split in two volumes, I can see him being blue. Have we ever seen Mr. Popo colored in the manga? I don't remember.
"If I tried to re-create the original voice I think I would run the risk of hitting a note so high that I may not be able to have children in future life." - Peter Kelamis
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
I mean in color in general. Has he appeared black, for example?Xagani wrote:I don't think so. This is the one and only time I've seen him blue in the manga.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Found him! Even if he is not very visible due to being split in two volumes, I can see him being blue. Have we ever seen Mr. Popo colored in the manga? I don't remember.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
Opps, sorry, I misread that.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I mean in color in general. Has he appeared black, for example?Xagani wrote:I don't think so. This is the one and only time I've seen him blue in the manga.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Found him! Even if he is not very visible due to being split in two volumes, I can see him being blue. Have we ever seen Mr. Popo colored in the manga? I don't remember.
I found in Volume 14 Chapter 7 that he is indeed colored black since that whole chapter is in color. It's when Goku first climbs up to Kami's temple and sees Mr. Popo there for the first time.
"If I tried to re-create the original voice I think I would run the risk of hitting a note so high that I may not be able to have children in future life." - Peter Kelamis
Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
A mush-mouthed, dark-skinned, big-lipped nonhuman in eternal servitude. Eeech...TRL wrote:You honestly believe Mr. Popo was intended racist? You know toriyama uses those lips and eyes on a lot of other designs. He wasn't even intended to be a human being.
Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
We know for certain that Popo isn't human, because Baba said that Goku would be the first human ever to meet "Him".
I agree that we should avoid discrimination and prejudice against all people, not just specific groups who have been the most highly targeted in the past. Equality is the most important thing with these issues. Female and male rights are equally important, and so are the feelings of people of any and every race, whichever imaginary groupings we apply, regardless of the mistakes of the past.
I agree that we should avoid discrimination and prejudice against all people, not just specific groups who have been the most highly targeted in the past. Equality is the most important thing with these issues. Female and male rights are equally important, and so are the feelings of people of any and every race, whichever imaginary groupings we apply, regardless of the mistakes of the past.
Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
Well Mr Popo is meant to be a genie as far as I know and if you look at some source materials of genie appearances that may have inspired Toriyama you can see how Popo might have ended up looking how he did: http://circa71.files.wordpress.com/2011 ... =584&h=814
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
He looks like a genie, but he isn't one. He is just a being from the AfterLife.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
Yeah, I never really saw any evidence of him being a genie, I think that word has just been thrown around a lot with him because of his appearance and the fact he has a magic carpet.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:He looks like a genie, but he isn't one. He is just a being from the AfterLife.
Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
I'm pretty sure I've seen Black people who don't look like that in DBZ. UUB is one of them
Here's a cover issue of Gamefan 1994, does this look racist to you OP?
http://community.retromags.com/gallery/ ... KghRRKYNol
I think the huge white teeth are out of place, big mouth/lips are out of place.
Here's a cover issue of Gamefan 1994, does this look racist to you OP?
http://community.retromags.com/gallery/ ... KghRRKYNol
I think the huge white teeth are out of place, big mouth/lips are out of place.
That time your teacher asked you to draw Cell in biology class.
This man is my hero:
This man is my hero:
To be perfectly honest, I couldn't care less about the fans a re-issue might alienate because if all they're concerned about is being able to scalp the people who were either unaware of the Dragon Boxes or couldn't afford them at the time, they're just leeches and deserve to have their greed backfire on them.
Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
Well I think you have to remember Mr Popo was introduced around 1987 whereas Uub was introduced in 1995 (hope I have my dates right), that's almost a decade apart and times had changed.Gokuden wrote:I'm pretty sure I've seen Black people who don't look like that in DBZ. UUB is one of them
Here's a cover issue of Gamefan 1994, does this look racist to you OP?
http://community.retromags.com/gallery/ ... KghRRKYNol
I think the huge white teeth are out of place, big mouth/lips are out of place.
Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
Racism doesn't have to be intentional. A lot of it springs from ignorance. I went to Japan on a study abroad a few years back, and even then I was questioned about whether I found black people (who there are still very few of in Japan) scary. I would absolutely consider Japan a largely racist culture. It doesn't have to be malicious to be harmful.TRL wrote:You honestly believe Mr. Popo was intended racist? You know toriyama uses those lips and eyes on a lot of other designs. He wasn't even intended to be a human being.
Mr. Popo is, no two ways around it, a Sambo character. That he's patterned on old imagery of "mysterious" Oriental cultures, speaks with such stilted Japanese, and plays the role of absolute servitude on top of that just compounds it. I have no doubt Toriyama used the imagery without intending harm, but the fact is Mr. Popo draws from the symbols of a long era of hatred and belittling. And he needn't. And, were the series recreated today, he shouldn't.
Staff Officer Black and other incidental characters come closer to just being approximations of black people (and some posters have been right; it's just as offensive to whitewash all features), but are exaggerated enough to ride the line. They could definitely be toned down.
Also, re: the whole "He's not a human," thing: You can't be serious.
Unless you're telling me I finally have an audience for my fan-character, Mr. Pingling the magical alien tax accountant:
Because that'd be spiffy.
Last edited by Cipher on Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Would these black characters by today's standards be cha
There, we can see the producers of Dragonball series in Japan changed their perception of what a black person is through that time, but how do you explain the American gamefan?Sin wrote:Well I think you have to remember Mr Popo was introduced around 1987 whereas Uub was introduced in 1995 (hope I have my dates right), that's almost a decade apart and times had changed.Gokuden wrote:I'm pretty sure I've seen Black people who don't look like that in DBZ. UUB is one of them
Here's a cover issue of Gamefan 1994, does this look racist to you OP?
http://community.retromags.com/gallery/ ... KghRRKYNol
I think the huge white teeth are out of place, big mouth/lips are out of place.
It's not just Japan that is guilty of depicting black people in a certain stereotype. I don't think Toriyama meant it on purpose, I think that's just the way black people were thought to look like back then.
Let's not forget Hercule, who reminded me of American Muscle, he can used as an example of white American stereotyping.
Also, if you want to dig deep into series, why is the ultimate form of power-up blonde and blue-eyed? Is it a form of Nazism or just how Japanese people felt towards fair-skinned people?
Remember the be a gaijin costume? Blonde hair, blue-eyed, big nose.
http://kotaku.com/5946130/hey-foreigner ... e-in-japan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/plinan/4054652973/
Not all white people have blonde hair and blue eyes, some have brown hair and green eyes, brown hair and hazel eyes, etc.
That time your teacher asked you to draw Cell in biology class.
This man is my hero:
This man is my hero:
To be perfectly honest, I couldn't care less about the fans a re-issue might alienate because if all they're concerned about is being able to scalp the people who were either unaware of the Dragon Boxes or couldn't afford them at the time, they're just leeches and deserve to have their greed backfire on them.