Was Gohan "Ultimate" in Movie #12?

[Hitiro]

Yakon is probably stronger than Freeza since Kaioshin was scared shitless by him

Since when Kaioshin's reactions/statements about power are taken into consideration? People had tried before. People had failed before.

I see no reason for Kaioshin, someone far stronger than Freeza, to be scared of someone like Yakon unless he was more powerful. Yakon displayed nothing threatening other than his power and his ability to eat light energy.

He was scared because of what he heard about him. It was reputation which made him fear Yakon. Its the same as Trunks taking on Mr. Satan and questioning if he's really strong, being the champion of the world and all. Trunks should have known exactly how strong Mr. Satan was. And we know that Kaioshin is pants are determining other peoples strength. He thought Vegeta couldn't take Pui-Pui and Goku couldn't take Yakon, clearly saying that they all needed to team up on Yakon. He clearly can't gauge any of the fighters strength even while they're in SSJ. So he isn't really to be trusted when he says X is more so powerful or X is weak.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Wasn't for Super Saiyan 2, Goku would loose. Probably the three Saiyans would, consdering they would be blind and can't sense Yakon's Ki.

Not true at all. He is shown being capable of fighting Yakon in the dark. Goku used SSJ to merely give himself a light. He just used SSJ2 to overflow Yakon's capacity in light energy causing him to self destruct up he could have taken him without SSJ and SSJ2.

[TheMightyOzaru]

He was scared because of what he heard about him. It was reputation which made him fear Yakon. Its the same as Trunks taking on Mr. Satan and questioning if he's really strong, being the champion of the world and all. Trunks should have known exactly how strong Mr. Satan was. And we know that Kaioshin is pants are determining other peoples strength. He thought Vegeta couldn't take Pui-Pui and Goku couldn't take Yakon, clearly saying that they all needed to team up on Yakon. He clearly can't gauge any of the fighters strength even while they're in SSJ. So he isn't really to be trusted when he says X is more so powerful or X is weak.

Frieza's reputation didnt scare Kaioshin. I see no reason for Yakon to be weaker than Frieza.

[Kaboom]

And I see no reason for another 'Freeza versus Boo-arc base Saiyans' debate, here or anywhere else. Can we keep away from it, please?

[Hitiro]

Freeza's reputation didnt scare Kaioshin. I see no reason for Yakon to be weaker than Freeza.

As far as Kaioshin knew Frieza's reputation was of him being basically a warlord with thousands of troops at his disposal. That doesn't say much about Frieza's strength. Obama is the President of the United States, that doesn't make him the smartest or the strongest. Just someone with a lot of authority. Or a better example Genghis Khan was an emperor who performed a lot of invasions into other places. That doesn't make him the strongest or smartest. It just tells us about his leadership skills and that he has good warriors. As far as I'm concerned a single individual which could have an equal amount of reputation is much more impressive than an emperor with a massive army.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Freeza's reputation didnt scare Kaioshin. I see no reason for Yakon to be weaker than Freeza.

As far as Kaioshin knew Freeza's reputation was of him being basically a warlord with thousands of troops at his disposal. That doesn't say much about Freeza's strength. Obama is the President of the United States, that doesn't make him the smartest or the strongest. Just someone with a lot of authority. Or a better example Genghis Khan was an emperor who performed a lot of invasions into other places. That doesn't make him the strongest or smartest. It just tells us about his leadership skills and that he has good warriors.

I take it you missed the fact that Kaioshin understood how powerful Frieza was. He knew he was a high planet buster. I reference you to where Kaioshin is explaining Buu to the Z-Fighters.

[Hitiro]

Freeza's reputation didnt scare Kaioshin. I see no reason for Yakon to be weaker than Freeza.

As far as Kaioshin knew Freeza's reputation was of him being basically a warlord with thousands of troops at his disposal. That doesn't say much about Freeza's strength. Obama is the President of the United States, that doesn't make him the smartest or the strongest. Just someone with a lot of authority. Or a better example Genghis Khan was an emperor who performed a lot of invasions into other places. That doesn't make him the strongest or smartest. It just tells us about his leadership skills and that he has good warriors.

I take it you missed the fact that Kaioshin understood how powerful Freeza was. He knew he was a high planet buster. I reference you to where Kaioshin is explaining Buu to the Z-Fighters.

He also makes out the Saiyan's aren't much even though they've dealt with Freeza, plus Goku is dealing with Yakon pretty easily without SSJ. Kaioshin still believed their only chance was for them to all attack at once. So as I said, Kaioshin is overestimating and underestimating various individuals throughout the story.

[TheMightyOzaru]

He also makes out the Saiyan's aren't much even though they've dealt with Freeza, plus Goku is dealing with Yakon pretty easily without SSJ. Kaioshin still believed their only chance was for them to all attack at once. So as I said, Kaioshin is overestimating and underestimating various individuals throughout the story.

He thinks BASE Saiyans arent much. He didnt think that the Saiyans got that much stronger but he seems to be wrong. Kaioshin can underestimate and overestimate thats not what decides power. The thing is he knew full well how powerful Frieza was and was not scared of his rep. On other other hand while he might not know how powerful Yakon really is its safe to assume that someone he is scared of is stronger than Frieza.

[Hitiro]

He also makes out the Saiyan's aren't much even though they've dealt with Freeza, plus Goku is dealing with Yakon pretty easily without SSJ. Kaioshin still believed their only chance was for them to all attack at once. So as I said, Kaioshin is overestimating and underestimating various individuals throughout the story.

He thinks BASE Saiyans arent much. He didnt think that the Saiyans got that much stronger but he seems to be wrong. Kaioshin can underestimate and overestimate thats not what decides power. The thing is he knew full well how powerful Freeza was and was not scared of his rep. On other other hand while he might not know how powerful Yakon really is its safe to assume that someone he is scared of is stronger than Freeza.

As I said, not necessarily, it could just be his reputation. Bringing up the point I brought up earlier, Trunks thought Mr. Satan was strong because he was the champion. He questions this when he's about to fight him so you can't say for certain that Yakon > Frieza because it could purely be down to Yakon just having a better reputation than Frieza, for all we know he conquered his whole galaxy by himself. The Kaioshin seems to be more afraid because he knows of him, not because of how strong he is. And as I've pointed out before for the Earthlings ki to have any sort of meaning Goku can't be any stronger than 60 million otherwise a Genki Dama collected from all the Earthlings ki would not prove very effective against Kid Buu. You can tell me that Gohan and the others Genki were what made it strong but Goku points out that it is definitely not enough and they seem to be pretty confident that the Earthlings ki alone would be sufficient in taking down Kid Buu.

[TheMightyOzaru]

He also makes out the Saiyan's aren't much even though they've dealt with Freeza, plus Goku is dealing with Yakon pretty easily without SSJ. Kaioshin still believed their only chance was for them to all attack at once. So as I said, Kaioshin is overestimating and underestimating various individuals throughout the story.

He thinks BASE Saiyans arent much. He didnt think that the Saiyans got that much stronger but he seems to be wrong. Kaioshin can underestimate and overestimate thats not what decides power. The thing is he knew full well how powerful Freeza was and was not scared of his rep. On other other hand while he might not know how powerful Yakon really is its safe to assume that someone he is scared of is stronger than Freeza.

As I said, not necessarily, it could just be his reputation. Bringing up the point I brought up earlier, Trunks thought Mr. Satan was strong because he was the champion. He questions this when he's about to fight him so you can't say for certain that Yakon > Freeza because it could purely be down to Yakon just having a better reputation than Freeza, for all we know he conquered his whole galaxy by himself. The Kaioshin seems to be more afraid because he knows of him, not because of how strong he is. And as I've pointed out before for the Earthlings ki to have any sort of meaning Goku can't be any stronger than 60 million otherwise a Genki Dama collected from all the Earthlings ki would not prove very effective against Kid Buu. You can tell me that Gohan and the others Genki were what made it strong but Goku points out that it is definitely not enough and they seem to be pretty confident that the Earthlings ki alone would be sufficient in taking down Kid Buu.

I know. I'm going off your reputation point right now. He was not scared of Frieza's rep and he knew how powerful he was. If Yakons rep scares him that should mean Yakon is stronger than Frieza. I'm sorry but even with your point on Mr Satan I find it very very hard to believe that Kaioshin, an overseer, is scared of Yakon based on his rep yet doesnt give 2 sh*ts about Frieza. Thats not the case whatsoever. The Genki Dama doesnt follow any sort of power level rule its as strong as it needs to be for the sake of the plot. Plus it runs off Genki there is no known way to convert that into a power level.

[Hitiro]

I know. I'm going off your reputation point right now. He was not scared of Freeza's rep and he knew how powerful he was. If Yakons rep scares him that should mean Yakon is stronger than Freeza. I'm sorry but even with your point on Mr Satan I find it very very hard to believe that Kaioshin, an overseer, is scared of Yakon based on his rep yet doesnt give 2 sh*ts about Freeza. Thats not the case whatsoever. The Genki Dama doesnt follow any sort of power level rule its as strong as it needs to be for the sake of the plot. Plus it runs off Genki there is no known way to convert that into a power level.

No, Yakon's rep makes it seem as if he's more powerful than Freeza, do you see what I am saying now? The only thing the Kaioshin knows is:

1. Freeza's rep.

2. Freeza's strength.

3. Yakon's rep, which is better than Freeza's as he "knows of Yakon."

Unfortunately the Kaioshin doesn't know Yakons actual strength. Just because Yakon has better rep than Freeza doesn't necessarily make Yakon better than Freeza. It could just mean Yakon had more fodder in his galaxy or he got lucky. Mr. Satan is called the champion but that's because he was lucky not to have to fight in the tournaments while Goku and the gang were around. Its really extremely lucky that Mr. Satan didn't have to deal with any competent fighters like the ones from the previous Budokai's or he would have outright lost. As far as ordinary people go Mr. Satan is probably strongest amongst them. But throw individuals like Krillin and the rest and he isn't anything. But people just assume he's the strongest because of his reputation. Even kid Trunks makes this mistake.

And as far as the Genki Dama goes of course it follows a power level rule, otherwise Toriyama wouldn't have been picky as to how Goku gathered the energy. Whether it was just from Gohan and the kids or just from all his family and friends in general. Toriyama could have just wrote it so that his family and friends contributed to it rather than get the whole world in on it. And it wouldn't have harmed the story at all. It would have just shown the experiences and friendship that's developed from the pursuit of the dragon balls. And we may not know how much of Genki is part of everyones ki but we know its a portion. Even if it was 99% of it Goku would still need to be around 60 million for the Genki Dama to have any sort of effect from all of those people.

[Enbi]

Kaioshin can sense chi.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I know. I'm going off your reputation point right now. He was not scared of Freeza's rep and he knew how powerful he was. If Yakons rep scares him that should mean Yakon is stronger than Freeza. I'm sorry but even with your point on Mr Satan I find it very very hard to believe that Kaioshin, an overseer, is scared of Yakon based on his rep yet doesnt give 2 sh*ts about Freeza. Thats not the case whatsoever. The Genki Dama doesnt follow any sort of power level rule its as strong as it needs to be for the sake of the plot. Plus it runs off Genki there is no known way to convert that into a power level.

No, Yakon's rep makes it seem as if he's more powerful than Freeza, do you see what I am saying now? The only thing the Kaioshin knows is:

1. Freeza's rep.

2. Freeza's strength.

3. Yakon's rep, which is better than Freeza's as he "knows of Yakon."

Unfortunately the Kaioshin doesn't know Yakons actual strength. Just because Yakon has better rep than Freeza doesn't necessarily make Yakon better than Freeza. It could just mean Yakon had more fodder in his galaxy or he got lucky. Mr. Satan is called the champion but that's because he was lucky not to have to fight in the tournaments while Goku and the gang were around. Its really extremely lucky that Mr. Satan didn't have to deal with any competent fighters like the ones from the previous Budokai's or he would have outright lost. As far as ordinary people go Mr. Satan is probably strongest amongst them. But throw individuals like Krillin and the rest and he isn't anything. But people just assume he's the strongest because of his reputation. Even kid Trunks makes this mistake.

And as far as the Genki Dama goes of course it follows a power level rule, otherwise Toriyama wouldn't have been picky as to how Goku gathered the energy. Whether it was just from Gohan and the kids or just from all his family and friends in general. Toriyama could have just wrote it so that his family and friends contributed to it rather than get the whole world in on it. And it wouldn't have harmed the story at all. It would have just shown the experiences and friendship that's developed from the pursuit of the dragon balls. And we may not know how much of Genki is part of everyones ki but we know its a portion. Even if it was 99% of it Goku would still need to be around 60 million for the Genki Dama to have any sort of effect from all of those people.

There are no power levels past the Frieza saga. The Super Genki Dama is not subject to the power level ruling. Its a convenient way to have Goku win and is plot based in power. Toriyama had a Genki Dama formed from everyone because it was an epic way to finish the series. It also make Buu look powerful like he should. Power Scaling can be done with the Genki Dama yes but you cannot figure out its power level based on the human power level of 5 and everyone elses power level which are all unknown. I would also like to point out that Gohan did in fact fuel it with his Genki so its as powerful as it needs to be. Also Yakons rep may not necessarily mean Yakon is stronger but I believe this does prove my point. IMO if Kaioshin finds Yakons rep more terrifying than Frieza's power I'm gonna assume that Yakon is more powerful.

[Enbi]

I don't think we should make any more assumptions than necessary...

...we're given the info that Kaioshin can one-shot Freeza. He thinks they have to team up to beat Yakon. He can sense chi.

Yakon > Kaioshin > Freeza; it's that simple.

[Kaboom]

And I see no reason for another 'Freeza versus Boo-arc base Saiyans' debate, here or anywhere else. Can we keep away from it, please?

*Ahem*

[Mystic Gohan]

I dunno man. Kaioshin can one-shot Freeza. He's amazed at what base Vegeta does to Pui-Pui.

But Goku was also surprised that there were four Kaioshin which could have defeated Freeza in one blow. Him being amazed that base Vegeta took out Pui-Pui is just due to his terrible ability at judging strength for a lot of the battles he seemed to be overestimating their opponents and underestimating the strength of Super Saiyan's.

I think that Kaioshin is trying to hype up there enemy. It's like "Oh shit I can own Freeza yo, but I still need your help" Goku: "No way really? You can take Freeza? These guys must be strong". At least that's how I see it.

Even if Kaioshin was a bad judge of strength, why would he be amazed at something that he can very easily do?

[TheMightyOzaru]

And I see no reason for another 'Freeza versus Boo-arc base Saiyans' debate, here or anywhere else. Can we keep away from it, please?

*Ahem*

Sorry sorry but this is still more or less on topic. This is deciding whether or not Gohan is strong enough to Kill Frieza in base.

[Kaboom]

Apparently yes, he can. But whether he killed Freeza at 5% or 10% or 25% or 50% or 70% of Freeza's full power is a mystery. So it's largely irrelevant to the original topic.

[Hitiro]

There are no power levels past the Freeza saga. The Super Genki Dama is not subject to the power level ruling. Its a convenient way to have Goku win and is plot based in power. Toriyama had a Genki Dama formed from everyone because it was an epic way to finish the series. It also make Buu look powerful like he should. Power Scaling can be done with the Genki Dama yes but you cannot figure out its power level based on the human power level of 5 and everyone elses power level which are all unknown. I would also like to point out that Gohan did in fact fuel it with his Genki so its as powerful as it needs to be. Also Yakons rep may not necessarily mean Yakon is stronger but I believe this does prove my point. IMO if Kaioshin finds Yakons rep more terrifying than Freeza's power I'm gonna assume that Yakon is more powerful.

It would have been just as "epic" to just show the various characters who Goku has met in his travels to find the dragonballs and have every single one of them make a cameo of a few pages as opposed to random single panels of various people from his adventures. If your averaging out the powerlevel of the whole planet with what we know the average powerlevel of a human is, 5. Then its quite easy to see that if Goku or any of the other Saiyan's were over 60 million then their combined ki, which is quite prossibly much smaller than 30 billion considering Genki is only a portion of a persons ki and that I'm using the average power level of 5, there are probably numerous children and elderly people who aren't even close to this power level which are the majority in consideration to population. And as I said, Kaioshin finds Yakon terrifying because he's assuming that from his rep he is marginally stronger than Freeza. However that may not be the case. Mr. Satan is apparently the strongest man on Earth yet we know that isn't true, that's just his reputation proceeding his actual ability.

I don't think we should make any more assumptions than necessary...

...we're given the info that Kaioshin can one-shot Freeza. He thinks they have to team up to beat Yakon. He can sense chi.

Yakon > Kaioshin > Freeza; it's that simple.

If that were true then Trunks, who can also sense ki, should have known how pitifully weak Mr. Satan is. But what do we see in the tournament? He actually says something along the lines of "I can't tell if he's an idiot or whether he's strong." clearly Trunks should be able to tell how weak he is but because he's apparently the champion he doesn't know whether he's pretending to be weak.

Apparently yes, he can. But whether he killed Freeza at 5% or 10% or 25% or 50% or 70% of Freeza's full power is a mystery. So it's largely irrelevant to the original topic.

Gauging the Base Saiyan's will eliminate a region of where his power could have been though. If the Saiyan's maximum base power is only at 50% of Freeza's full power then Freeza would have to be 40% or lower. Justification into Gohan and the other Saiyan's strength is just further justification that he may have not been "Ultimate" in the movie. It is a slight tangent from the original topic but I feel that its still relevant.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If the base Saiyans never surpassed Freeza, that would mean that there is not a big difference between Freeza, Piccolo (pre-Kami merging), Piccolo (post-Kami merging), First Form Cell, Powered-up First Form Cell, Second Form Cell, Perfect Cell, #17 & #18, Goku (pre-RoSaT) & (post-RoSaT), Gohan (pre-RoSaT) & (post-RoSaT), Vegeta (pre-RoSaT) & (post-RoSaT, day 1) & (post-RoSaT, day 2), and Future Trunks (pre-RoSaT) & (post-RoSaT, day 1) & (post-RoSaT, day 2), while there clearly are huge differences between all these.

As for Kaioshin being weaker than Pui Pui & Yakon, I don't believe so. Piccolo said himself that he was weaker than Kaioshin (Daizenshuu confirm that as well). If Kaioshin is weaker than Pui Pui and/or Yakon, then it would go like Piccolo < Kaioshin < Pui Pui < Base Vegeta, and Vegeta being stronger than Piccolo in base doesn't make any sense.