Was Gohan "Ultimate" in Movie #12?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Piccolo was compared to a Super Saiyan while whooping on #20, while Goku couldn't even move him with a punch. Also, he was still strong enough to beat #19 to the point where he might lose all of his energy and run dry, as stated by #20--so I doubt he'd win in Base... even without the virus. Vegeta wouldn't dare fight either Android in Base, so it's only right for Goku to be weaker than them in Base.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Piccolo was compared to a Super Saiyan while whooping on #20

Can you be more specific on this?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I see, thanks. I never noticed that line. Now I finally understand why there are people who believe that he could be stronger than Freeza. So after learning this, I'd put Piccolo a little weaker than Full Power Freeza.

[Rocketman]

I do not place Piccolo that high. It is completely insane that Piccolo would explode upward like that while Gohan "Hidden Power" Son himself gains jack shit.

Instead, I say that there simply are no standards of comparison. If Piccolo is 5 million or 55 million, there is nothing else that strong except a Super Saiyan.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

We don't know how strong Gohan had become. Since Piccolo is able to beat the crap outta #20 after absorbing a good amount of his energy and some of Super Saiyan Vegeta's, it only makes sense for Piccolo to have powered-up absurdly. Personally, I think Piccolo is stronger than weakened Super Saiyan Goku, so yeah.

[Kaboom]

I like to think that merging with Nail somehow gave Piccolo a big new edge in how fast he could gain power out of training. It's a form of Fusion, after all, and that essentially means a lot of easy power, both immediate and potential. Makes for an easy plot device to explain his big gains.

As for Gohan, his dormant power may be massive, after all, but it usually takes something special like anger or rituals from creepy old aliens for it to factor in at all. Otherwise, looking at his gains from the pre-Saiyans and pre-Namek mini timeskips, he doesn't seem to grow from training at a particularly explosive rate compared to the other Saiyans or anyone else.

[Fox666]

I don't think the fusion with Nail granteed Piccolo more "potential" or anything. Piccolo has always increased his power drastically through training.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Piccolo was compared to a Super Saiyan while whooping on #20, while Goku couldn't even move him with a punch. Also, he was still strong enough to beat #19 to the point where he might lose all of his energy and run dry, as stated by #20--so I doubt he'd win in Base... even without the virus. Vegeta wouldn't dare fight either Android in Base, so it's only right for Goku to be weaker than them in Base.

Not quite. Vegeta wouldnt fight 19 in base because he took a lot of energy and therefore was outclassed. Vegeta didnt want to take 20 in base because guess what? They cant sense the energy of the androids now can they? Its very unclear how powerful the base Saiyans were and I find it very unlikely that Piccolo is somehow exponentially stronger than base Goku or Vegeta.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

Thats not a direct comparison to SSJ. He is simply stating he is very strong. Plus its been 3 years. It took Goku 6 days to go from 8,200 to 90,000. thats over a 10x increase in less than a week. I see no reason for the exponential increases to stop especially when Piccolo got so much stronger.

[TheMightyOzaru]

We don't know how strong Gohan had become. Since Piccolo is able to beat the crap outta #20 after absorbing a good amount of his energy and some of Super Saiyan Vegeta's, it only makes sense for Piccolo to have powered-up absurdly. Personally, I think Piccolo is stronger than weakened Super Saiyan Goku, so yeah.

Why is Piccolo so much stronger? Need I remind you that Piccolo was at 1,000,000+ and Goku was 3,000,000+ when they started training for the androids. Why would Piccolo suddely jump a power level far greater than Base Goku and Base Vegeta whom were not only stronger at first but are also Saiyans which makes for a larger gain faster? It just doesnt add up.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I like to think that merging with Nail somehow gave Piccolo a big new edge in how fast he could gain power out of training. It's a form of Fusion, after all, and that essentially means a lot of easy power, both immediate and potential. Makes for an easy plot device to explain his big gains.

As for Gohan, his dormant power may be massive, after all, but it usually takes something special like anger or rituals from creepy old aliens for it to factor in at all. Otherwise, looking at his gains from the pre-Saiyans and pre-Namek mini timeskips, he doesn't seem to grow from training at a particularly explosive rate compared to the other Saiyans or anyone else.

I dont know going from 2 to 900+ in a year(kind of, Piccolo only showed him the basics after the whole survival fiasco) is pretty impressive for a child. Plus Gohan didnt really train excessively during the Namek arc. We cant really gage his training increases based on those 2 arcs. Gohan was able to knock #20 off of Piccolo which I find impressive. I also dont really see why Nail would give Piccolo more "potential".

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think the fusion with Nail granteed Piccolo more "potential" or anything. Piccolo has always increased his power drastically through training.

No, he never became that much stronger before. Not nearly 100 times stronger. So, it's because of Nail merging with him his dormant power extended so much for me.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Piccolo was compared to a Super Saiyan while whooping on #20, while Goku couldn't even move him with a punch. Also, he was still strong enough to beat #19 to the point where he might lose all of his energy and run dry, as stated by #20--so I doubt he'd win in Base... even without the virus. Vegeta wouldn't dare fight either Android in Base, so it's only right for Goku to be weaker than them in Base.

Not quite. Vegeta wouldnt fight 19 in base because he took a lot of energy and therefore was outclassed. Vegeta didnt want to take 20 in base because guess what? They cant sense the energy of the androids now can they? Its very unclear how powerful the base Saiyans were and I find it very unlikely that Piccolo is somehow exponentially stronger than base Goku or Vegeta.

You admit that Vegeta wouldn't fight #19 in Base because he's outclassed, yet it's so hard to believe Piccolo (who demolished a powered-up #20, who already started off stronger than #19 to begin with) is stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta? Wut?! Vegeta even makes it a point to tell Piccolo not to give #20 any more energy. Base Goku couldn't even move #20 with a direct punch, and he wasn't even winded yet.

Why is Piccolo so much stronger? Need I remind you that Piccolo was at 1,000,000+ and Goku was 3,000,000+ when they started training for the androids. Why would Piccolo suddely jump a power level far greater than Base Goku and Base Vegeta whom were not only stronger at first but are also Saiyans which makes for a larger gain faster? It just doesnt add up.

Because training with a Super Saiyan would definitely yield a nice increase for someone who trains as hard as Piccolo. You can also look at the battles in the Android saga and go from there. Their Super Saiyan forms were where they began to hold the #1 spot at that point. Their bases were no longer relevant.

[Rocketman]

As for Gohan, his dormant power may be massive, after all, but it usually takes something special like anger or rituals from creepy old aliens for it to factor in at all. Otherwise, looking at his gains from the pre-Saiyans and pre-Namek mini timeskips, he doesn't seem to grow from training at a particularly explosive rate compared to the other Saiyans or anyone else.

Pre-Namek was "image training" (whatever the hell that is) with Krillin.

He got a thousand times stronger when training for the Saiyans with Piccolo. :P

And then the explosive training in the Time Chamber with Goku.

But training with Piccolo and Goku...?

[TheMightyOzaru]

You admit that Vegeta wouldn't fight #19 in Base because he's outclassed, yet it's so hard to believe Piccolo (who demolished a powered-up #20, who already started off stronger than #19 to begin with) is stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta? Wut?! Vegeta even makes it a point to tell Piccolo not to give #20 any more energy. Base Goku couldn't even move #20 with a direct punch, and he wasn't even winded yet.

You misunderstand heavily. Android 20 was stating he was stronger than 19 but doesnt specify whether he is stronger than 19 who had absorbed a lof of SSJ Vegeta and Goku's energy or the base 19. Furhtermore its a potential bluff to try and scare Vegeta which I find highly likely since 19 had a good deal of Vegeta's energy. Vegeta again doesnt know how powerful 20 is so he is obviously going to be cautious about 20 recieving more energy.

[Because training with a Super Saiyan would definitely yield a nice increase for someone who trains as hard as Piccolo. You can also look at the battles in the Android saga and go from there. Their Super Saiyan forms were where they began to hold the #1 spot at that point. Their bases were no longer relevant.

Goku didnt even go SSJ likely =/. Plus fighting someone exponentially stronger wont even yeild an increase since Piccolo would just lose all the time. Its not productive. There base forms are relevent actually. There is no reason for Piccolo to recieve such a large increase when Base Saiyans grow at an equal if not faster rate. Heck look here:
Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P2.1
Context: regular Gohan was sparring with Super Saiyan Trunks. With his one arm…
Future Gohan: “You’ve improved a lot, Trunks. You might even leave me in the dust in a few months.”
Base Future Gohan is capable of fighting SSJ Trunks at this point and even thinks Trunks will surpass him in a few months. That is a 50x increase in base in about a 4th of a year. There base levels seem to increase rapidly.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

You misunderstand heavily. Android 20 was stating he was stronger than 19 but doesnt specify whether he is stronger than 19 who had absorbed a lof of SSJ Vegeta and Goku's energy or the base 19. Furhtermore its a potential bluff to try and scare Vegeta which I find highly likely since 19 had a good deal of Vegeta's energy. Vegeta again doesnt know how powerful 20 is so he is obviously going to be cautious about 20 recieving more energy.

Doesn't change the fact that Goku still lacked the power to move #20. It's also stated Super Saiyan Goku was still strong enough to beat #19 to the point where he'd potentially run out of energy, despite the fact that he was sick. The battle clearly shows #19 is able to put up some good resistance, despite being outclassed.

Piccolo beats a powered-up #20 even quicker than a going all-out Super Saiyan Goku beat a normal #19. So Piccolo being stronger than Super Saiyan Goku right there is fine, actually. If not, it at least shows he's able to do something the Base Saiyans can't do....

The fact that Krillin (who's great at sensing power) and Tien (who's disgusted to see how drastically Piccolo's powered-up, along with Vegeta) are quick to note how powerful he is after fawning all over the Super Saiyans shows Piccolo is in a different class than before.

Goku didnt even go SSJ likely =/. Plus fighting someone exponentially stronger wont even yeild an increase since Piccolo would just lose all the time. Its not productive. There base forms are relevent actually. There is no reason for Piccolo to recieve such a large increase when Base Saiyans grow at an equal if not faster rate.

Except the chapter title page shows Super Saiyan Goku fighting weighted Piccolo and Gohan. And when you consider the fact that Piccolo knew Goku was stronger than he was showing, I'd say he saw quite a bit of Super Saiyan Goku during those 3 yrs. Goku was much stronger than Gohan going into the rosat, and even had a form on him. What happens later? Gohan ends up surpassing Goku before he even unleashes his hidden powers. So no, fighting someone way stronger is not unproductive. At all.

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P2.1
Context: regular Gohan was sparring with Super Saiyan Trunks. With his one arm…
Future Gohan: “You’ve improved a lot, Trunks. You might even leave me in the dust in a few months.”
Base Future Gohan is capable of fighting SSJ Trunks at this point and even thinks Trunks will surpass him in a few months. That is a 50x increase in base in about a 4th of a year. There base levels seem to increase rapidly.

We don't know how strong either are at that point. Both could be incredibly weak for all we know. Gohan might be a bit stronger than namek Super Saiyan Goku, but is most likely weaker than Yardrat Goku if you take what he says literally.

[Fox666]

You misunderstand heavily. Android 20 was stating he was stronger than 19 but doesnt specify whether he is stronger than 19 who had absorbed a lof of SSJ Vegeta and Goku's energy or the base 19.

That's true, in fact he was jealous of the energy No.19 absorbed from Goku.

Goku didnt even go SSJ likely =/.

He did:

I don't think the fusion with Nail granteed Piccolo more "potential" or anything. Piccolo has always increased his power drastically through training.

No, he never became that much stronger before. Not nearly 100 times stronger. So, it's because of Nail merging with him his dormant power extended so much for me.

You know, if Piccolo was stronger than Nail when he arrived on Namek, that would mean he increased his power in more than 10 times in 3 days.

Mathematically speaking, if Piccolo increased his power at that rate for 3 years, he would have increased his power in 10^365 times. Let's see what that number would look like:

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Exponential growth is fun, isn't it?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Doesn't change the fact that Goku still lacked the power to move #20. It's also stated Super Saiyan Goku was still strong enough to beat #19 to the point where he'd potentially run out of energy, despite the fact that he was sick. The battle clearly shows #19 is able to put up some good resistance, despite being outclassed.

Lacked the power when the Virus was still taking effect =/ and no Goku punched 20 back by quite a bit actually. Despite being outclassed by a very weak SSJ Goku =/.

Except the chapter title page shows Super Saiyan Goku fighting weighted Piccolo and Gohan. And when you consider the fact that Piccolo knew Goku was stronger than he was showing, I'd say he saw quite a bit of Super Saiyan Goku during those 3 yrs. Goku was much stronger than Gohan going into the rosat, and even had a form on him. What happens later? Gohan ends up surpassing Goku before he even unleashes his hidden powers. So no, fighting someone way stronger is not unproductive. At all.

It is unproductive if Goku was trying. However based on this knowledge it would appear that Goku is more focused on training Gohan and Piccolo than himself. This would explain why Vegeta was stronger than Goku. However this doesnt explain why Piccolo would be above base Vegeta at this point in time. Fighting someone stronger isnt going to increase the rate at which your strength increases. If it does that would mean that Gohan and Goku got an unbelievable amount stronger in the ROSAT.

We don't know how strong either are at that point. Both could be incredibly weak for all we know. Gohan might be a bit stronger than namek Super Saiyan Goku, but is most likely weaker than Yardrat Goku if you take what he says literally.

Well Gohan managed to hold his own against the androids a few times while SSJ so he is pretty strong. He even lasted longer than Vegeta in his time. You seem to be missing the fact that Gohan said Trunks might surpass him in a few months that would apply to his SSJ form as well.

[Hitiro]

It is unproductive if Goku was trying. However based on this knowledge it would appear that Goku is more focused on training Gohan and Piccolo than himself. This would explain why Vegeta was stronger than Goku. However this doesnt explain why Piccolo would be above base Vegeta at this point in time. Fighting someone stronger isnt going to increase the rate at which your strength increases. If it does that would mean that Gohan and Goku got an unbelievable amount stronger in the ROSAT.

Are you joking? Goku and Gohan did get unbelievably stronger in the RoSaT. Pre-RoSaT Goku and Gohan were weaker than the Androids Cell had absorbed. After the RoSaT training Goku is able to fight on par with a restrained Perfect Cell in his regular SSJ form, whereas it took Vegeta the SSJG2 to take on Semi-Perfect Cell.

Well Gohan managed to hold his own against the androids a few times while SSJ so he is pretty strong. He even lasted longer than Vegeta in his time. You seem to be missing the fact that Gohan said Trunks might surpass him in a few months that would apply to his SSJ form as well.

Androids who stated they weren't even using half their strength when they last thought.