The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Saiga]

Even using a 1000x SS4 multiplier I have Goku losing.

Quite badly, in fact.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I believe SSJ4 is 10x stronger than SSJ3 and I dont think Gohan is 10x, I think he is 7.5x stronger at the most, stronger than SSJ3 Goku so I have Goku winning this one.

[Rocketman]

Goku can't ever catch Mystic Gohan. Gohan has far more potential power, and all of that was brought to the surface with Mystic.

That's why GT tried to quietly delete Mystic and hoped nobody would notice.

[dbzfan7]

How much did Gohan's power multiply after his ultimate potential was released and brought beyond it, and what would the SSJ4 multiplier be.

[Shineman]

Ultimate Gohan vs SSJ4 Goku(Boo Saga)

Side question:

Would Gohan get more out of SSJ4 or his Power up from the Elder Kaioshin.

SSJ4 apparently has no drawbacks (which is odd when SSJ3 had some, so you would think a more powerful form would have more drawbacks.)

How much did Gohan's power multiply after his potential was released and expanded upon.

It's depends on the multiplier for SSj4. Considering that it's jump Goku's power really, really high in GT, it's can edge out Gohan. Then again, Goku was more powerful in GT, than he was in Z. So it could go either way, depending on gets tired first.

[Rocketman]

How much did Gohan's power multiply after his ultimate potential was released and brought beyond it, and what would the SSJ4 multiplier be.

Doesn't matter.

Gohan has more potential than Goku.
All of Gohan's potential was released.
Goku can never catch Gohan because his potential is lower.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Ultimate Gohan vs SSJ4 Goku(Boo Saga)

Super Saiyan 4 draws one's dormant power to its utmost limits, while the Ultimate power up draws ones dormant power far beyond its limits. Plus, Gohan has more dormant power than Goku, since he is a Saiyan Halfling, so Gohan wins.

[Toriyama-sama]

Well, in my point of view SSJ4 is portrayed as giving a far, far stronger power up than any other transformation. Just look at how effortlessly SSJ3 Goku is defeated by Baby Vegeta. The same Baby Vegeta who transforms into a Golden Oozaru to approach SSJ4 Goku in power (with Goku still winning). The Oozaru form multiplies one's power by 10, and so SSJ4's power boost over SSJ3 has to be much greater than that. I mean, how would Toei play it any other way?

[Mjb1985]

If Goku could surpass Ultimate Gohan in any form or fashion it would pretty much defeat the entire purpose of Gohan's hidden abilities as well as Elder Kaioshin's power up.

Ultimate Gohan should be far beyond Gohan's maximum potential , which should be beyond Goku's maximum potential.

[Rocketman]

Well, in my point of view SSJ4 is portrayed as giving a far, far stronger power up than any other transformation. Just look at how effortlessly SSJ3 Goku is defeated by Baby Vegeta. The same Baby Vegeta who transforms into a Golden Oozaru to approach SSJ4 Goku in power (with Goku still winning). The Oozaru form multiplies one's power by 10, and so SSJ4's power boost over SSJ3 has to be much greater than that. I mean, how would Toei play it any other way? :wink:

GT got rid of Mystic, remember?

[Mjb1985]

Apparently it looks like AT got rid of it as well considering Gohan is shown as a Ssj in the new movie coming out.

[TheMightyOzaru]

How much did Gohan's power multiply after his ultimate potential was released and brought beyond it, and what would the SSJ4 multiplier be.

Doesn't matter.

Gohan has more potential than Goku.
All of Gohan's potential was released.
Goku can never catch Gohan because his potential is lower.

More potential doesnt mean anything if Gohan is too lazy to train. SSJ4 unlocks more potential since SSJ3 drags a Saiyan's potential to its limits. Gohan is just stated to have more dormant potential not more potential in general BTW. Furthermore in Toriyama's Best in the translation section straight up says Goku is the number 1 strongest in the universe so its safe to assume that Goku surpassed him during those 10 years.

[dbzfan7]

How much did Gohan's power multiply after his ultimate potential was released and brought beyond it, and what would the SSJ4 multiplier be.

Doesn't matter.

Gohan has more potential than Goku.
All of Gohan's potential was released.
Goku can never catch Gohan because his potential is lower.

More potential doesnt mean anything if Gohan is too lazy to train. SSJ4 unlocks more potential since SSJ3 drags a Saiyan's potential to its limits. Gohan is just stated to have more dormant potential not more potential in general BTW. Furthermore in Toriyama's Best in the translation section straight up says Goku is the number 1 strongest in the universe so its safe to assume that Goku surpassed him during those 10 years.

Toriyama did not say that, the interviewer did. Notice the use of quotes when the interviewer, or Toriyama says something.

SSJ4 and SSJ3 have the same description.

-3
First Appearance: chapter 474
People: Son Goku, Gotenks
Special features: The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time

Super Saiyan 4
The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!! It’s distinguished by having a different appearance than previous Super Saiyans, with red body fur and long black hair!! It is called Super Saiyan 4 out of convenience, but due to it being a transformation from Golden Oozaru, it would be no exaggeration to call it a different species from all previous Super Saiyans!! Thinking of it as a different species, you could also name such points as the fact that unlike with 3 he has an adult appearance, despite being a transformation of little Goku.

They both do draw Saiyan power out to it's limits.

Gohan is stated to have more potential "He potentially has wondrous power greater than Goku" from DZ2

[TheMightyOzaru]

Toriyama did not say that, the interviewer did. Notice the use of quotes when the interviewer, or Toriyama says something.

SSJ4 and SSJ3 have the same description.

-3
First Appearance: chapter 474
People: Son Goku, Gotenks
Special features: The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time

Super Saiyan 4
The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!! It’s distinguished by having a different appearance than previous Super Saiyans, with red body fur and long black hair!! It is called Super Saiyan 4 out of convenience, but due to it being a transformation from Golden Oozaru, it would be no exaggeration to call it a different species from all previous Super Saiyans!! Thinking of it as a different species, you could also name such points as the fact that unlike with 3 he has an adult appearance, despite being a transformation of little Goku.

They both do draw Saiyan power out to it's limits.

Gohan is stated to have more potential "He potentially has wondrous power greater than Goku" from DZ2

If both draw out there power to the limits that would mean they are equal in power. SSJ4 itself is a new body so there are new limits to be had. Did Toriyama have a problem with that statement in Toriyama's Best? Nope. That statement says potentially so its not concrete. Saiyan's also seem to break down walls and surpass there current potential caps all the time. Look at Vegeta, He is always hitting walls and breaking through them.

[dbzfan7]

Toriyama did not say that, the interviewer did. Notice the use of quotes when the interviewer, or Toriyama says something.

SSJ4 and SSJ3 have the same description.

-3
First Appearance: chapter 474
People: Son Goku, Gotenks
Special features: The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time

Super Saiyan 4
The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!! It’s distinguished by having a different appearance than previous Super Saiyans, with red body fur and long black hair!! It is called Super Saiyan 4 out of convenience, but due to it being a transformation from Golden Oozaru, it would be no exaggeration to call it a different species from all previous Super Saiyans!! Thinking of it as a different species, you could also name such points as the fact that unlike with 3 he has an adult appearance, despite being a transformation of little Goku.

They both do draw Saiyan power out to it's limits.

Gohan is stated to have more potential "He potentially has wondrous power greater than Goku" from DZ2

If both draw out there power to the limits that would mean they are equal in power. SSJ4 itself is a new body so there are new limits to be had. Did Toriyama have a problem with that statement in Toriyama's Best? Nope. That statement says potentially so its not concrete. Saiyan's also seem to break down walls and surpass there current potential caps all the time. Look at Vegeta, He is always hitting walls and breaking through them.

Toriyama isn't a picky guy. He is perfectly fine with GT and Evolution. He isn't going to point out random facts about DB. SSJ4 is not a new body, it's there body enhanced.

Goku doesn't have more potential then Gohan, Gohan as a kid showed far more promise then Goku, Goku himself admits that. Gohan had his full potential realized and surpassed to new heights. The whole 10 years thing can be debated here if you want to post it up.

We debated the whole ten years thing and most people still say Gohan is superior.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Toriyama did not say that, the interviewer did. Notice the use of quotes when the interviewer, or Toriyama says something.

SSJ4 and SSJ3 have the same description.

-3
First Appearance: chapter 474
People: Son Goku, Gotenks
Special features: The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time

Super Saiyan 4
The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!! It’s distinguished by having a different appearance than previous Super Saiyans, with red body fur and long black hair!! It is called Super Saiyan 4 out of convenience, but due to it being a transformation from Golden Oozaru, it would be no exaggeration to call it a different species from all previous Super Saiyans!! Thinking of it as a different species, you could also name such points as the fact that unlike with 3 he has an adult appearance, despite being a transformation of little Goku.

They both do draw Saiyan power out to it's limits.

Gohan is stated to have more potential "He potentially has wondrous power greater than Goku" from DZ2

If both draw out there power to the limits that would mean they are equal in power. SSJ4 itself is a new body so there are new limits to be had. Did Toriyama have a problem with that statement in Toriyama's Best? Nope. That statement says potentially so its not concrete. Saiyan's also seem to break down walls and surpass there current potential caps all the time. Look at Vegeta, He is always hitting walls and breaking through them.

Toriyama isn't a picky guy. He is perfectly fine with GT and Evolution. He isn't going to point out random facts about DB. SSJ4 is not a new body, it's there body enhanced.

Goku doesn't have more potential then Gohan, Gohan as a kid showed far more promise then Goku, Goku himself admits that. Gohan had his full potential realized and surpassed to new heights. The whole 10 years thing can be debated here if you want to post it up.

We debated the whole ten years thing and most people still say Gohan is superior.

Not a new body? Ok explain why Goku turns into an adult upon transforming. Toriyama may not be picky but he doesnt oppose the statement as such Goku is the strongest. Well I happen to believe Goku is only 7.5x weaker than Gohan at most. I also believe in exponential Ki growth meaning I believe Goku got far more than 7.5x stronger in those 10 years. I think SSJ2 Goku can take Gohan by the end of Z. Same goes for SSJ2 Vegeta.

[dbzfan7]

Not a new body? Ok explain why Goku turns into an adult upon transforming. Toriyama may not be picky but he doesnt oppose the statement as such Goku is the strongest. Well I happen to believe Goku is only 7.5x weaker than Gohan at most. I also believe in exponential Ki growth meaning I believe Goku got far more than 7.5x stronger in those 10 years. I think SSJ2 Goku can take Gohan by the end of Z. Same goes for SSJ2 Vegeta.

Did Goku magically get a new body and leave his kid body in a pocket dimension or something. It was his body enhanced. Gt logic is all over the place. If that was a new body, where did his kid one go. GT logic pretty much says that SSJ4 is so powerful it undo's the wish the Red Shenlong made. Makes more sense then he got a new body and his kid body jut disappears.

Toriyama not opposing the idea means nothing, he doesn't care about debating like we do. Ask anyone here and they will tell you the same thing.

I have Gohan around 12-16 times stronger then Goku. Gotenks at SSJ was already around SSJ3 Goku. This is because they would need a greater power level then what Goku used against Fat Boo to beat him. Goku was holding back, which is why SSJ Gotenk is around initial SSJ3 before post rosat increase. SSJ3 Gotenks would be around 8 times Goku since SSJ3 Gotenks is 8 times stronger then SSJ Gotenks. Gohan is around 1.5 to double Gotenks since Boo has to absorb Gotenks to overcome Gohan. The rest depends on how much Boo gets from absorbtion.

[Toriyama-sama]

I think people often take Old Kaioshin's words about taking one's power past their limits too literally. I see it more of a "I can make you super duper strong" kind of thing, which is not a new concept to the Dragon Ball story, really.

Besides, when he wanted to give Gohan a massive power-up, he performed his long ritual; when he wanted to do the same to Goku, he helped him become Super Saiyan 4. Maybe only pure Saiyans can achieve it, and Gohan simply became as strong as he would be as a SSJ3 who's mastered the form, similar to how mastering SSJ brings out its best performance by a long shot (my personal fanon ). I just can't bring myself to see how can Gohan's potential unlocking be more of a power-up than Goku's SSJ4, based on what we're shown and on the stereotypical, simplistic, straightforward line of though of shounen anime. Also, Toei

[Piccolo Daimao]

Apparently it looks like AT got rid of it as well considering Gohan is shown as a Ssj in the new movie coming out.

The bloody film's not even out yet, for Dende's sake. We've only seen SS Gohan when he's "meant" to be "Ultimate" on a promotional poster. (Haven't seen the trailer yet, though, but that'd still count as "promotional" anyway.)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Obviously, the statement for Super Saiyan 3 got retconed, at least for the anime.