Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[rereboy]

2 different things that are related but ignoring that for now. How would Goku stop Superman from crushing or ripping him apart?

Ki. Goku has shown he is capable of putting Ki up as a defense.

It took him and Vegeta at SS4 to hold up that building. The amount of force that building would have been putting on them is nothing compared to the force that Superman could apply.

Goku was able to lift a giant Piccolo who certainly weighted many, many tons even before he was able to break 1000 in power level.



What you are describing is simply power scale inconsistencies. And Superman also has plenty.

[TheMightyOzaru]

2 different things that are related but ignoring that for now. How would Goku stop Superman from crushing or ripping him apart?

Ki. Goku has shown he is capable of putting Ki up as a defense.

It took him and Vegeta at SS4 to hold up that building. The amount of force that building would have been putting on them is nothing compared to the force that Superman could apply.

Goku has tanked planet busting pressure so he can certainly take it. Goku has also never tried lifting a building outside of GT which is non canon. Heck for all we know Goku is using his actual physical strength to move said building.

[dario03]

Goku was able to lift a giant Piccolo who certainly weighted many, many tons even before he was able to break 1000 in power level.

What you are describing is simply power scale inconsistencies. And Superman also has plenty.

Inconsistencies sure, but no power scaling needed. Like I said thats simply the best show of physical strength that I can remember. If someone can show a better show of strength then please do. Otherwise we only know that Goku can maybe lift a large building and Superman can move multiple planets and bench the equilevent of the earth for 5 days without any trouble.

[batistabus]

Well, er, about the video... How do you think the " Death Battle" will be animated? Sprites? or Polygonal models like how they did the Link vs. Cloud video? I think there are some really good looking sprites out there (like in Hyper Dimension ) for Gokuu and his moves, not sure about Superman though.

I would've liked and expected sprites, but from the trailer, we can see a blurred CGI Goku and Superman posed next to each other. While that's not necessarily indicative of the battle, I expect that this is the case. The one CGI battle I saw by them (Link vs Cloud) didn't really look that great, while the newer sprite ones (especially Batman vs Spiderman) looked fantastic. It'd be awesome if they could get AlvinEarthworm (the Super Mario Bros. Z guy) to come out of retirement...he brought sprite animation to a new level. Still, since they're hyping up the battle so much, maybe they spent a little more time on their animation process.

[dario03]

Goku has tanked planet busting pressure so he can certainly take it. Goku has also never tried lifting a building outside of GT which is non canon. Heck for all we know Goku is using his actual physical strength to move said building.

Not from a physical attack.
they are using GT so non-cannon doesn't matter, but if you want to ignore GT then theres the whole having trouble lifting 10 tons while training during his second death but then theres more power scaling and all that.
Why would he and Vegeta both do that?

[rereboy]

The distinction between physical attack or not is irrelevant. Goku will always use his Ki to strengthen his attacks and defense (even the ones with no beams like hand to hand combat). There's technically no limit to how much Ki he can put into a punch or into a shield except the amount of Ki he actually has.

You are finding hard to discover what you call physical feats after a certain point in the series simply because the series evolved into battles that revolved mainly on Ki beam attacks, and not so much hand to hand. But doesn't mean that after that point the characters wouldn't be able to do much greater "physical" feats than before.

For example, Tao Pai Pai threw a stone pillar that weighted more than a human over 2.300 Km at supersonic speeds. Even though we don't see a SSJ3 do this, that doesn't mean that if a SSJ3 used his strength and Ki to trow a pillar, the result wouldn't be FAAAARRRR more impressive.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku has tanked planet busting pressure so he can certainly take it. Goku has also never tried lifting a building outside of GT which is non canon. Heck for all we know Goku is using his actual physical strength to move said building.

Not from a physical attack.
they are using GT so non-cannon doesn't matter, but if you want to ignore GT then theres the whole having trouble lifting 10 tons while training during his second death but then theres more power scaling and all that.
Why would he and Vegeta both do that?

They are using SSJ4. Any inconsistencies they see they are going to throw out. If Goku can tank planet busting pressure he can tank Superman attempting to break him in half. BTW that 10 tons feat doesnt prove a point at all. He isnt going to use his Ki to help him out there because it defeats the purpose of his training.

[Insertclevername]

Well, er, about the video... How do you think the " Death Battle" will be animated? Sprites? or Polygonal models like how they did the Link vs. Cloud video? I think there are some really good looking sprites out there (like in Hyper Dimension ) for Gokuu and his moves, not sure about Superman though.

I would've liked and expected sprites, but from the trailer, we can see a blurred CGI Goku and Superman posed next to each other. While that's not necessarily indicative of the battle, I expect that this is the case. The one CGI battle I saw by them (Link vs Cloud) didn't really look that great, while the newer sprite ones (especially Batman vs Spiderman) looked fantastic. It'd be awesome if they could get AlvinEarthworm (the Super Mario Bros. Z guy) to come out of retirement...he brought sprite animation to a new level. Still, since they're hyping up the battle so much, maybe they spent a little more time on their animation process.

I feel the same way, the sprite animations look better and are without a doubt more efficient. The 3-D ones are cool in their own right though.

[dario03]

The distiction is not irrelevent. To use the RPG example again you could have 2 attacks that both do 1000 base damage one thats physical and one thats magical but depending on what you use it against it might end up doing 100 damage or it might do 2000 it just depends on if the target is strong or weak against something. So if this was a RPG I would have Goku as a mage with great energy attack and defense and superman would be a warrior/tank with a magic protection ring or some random thing like that.

You can say Goku can put all the energy he wants into his physical attacks and he probably can but its never shown that he has physical strength even close to Superman. And all of the impressive destructive feats were done with pure ki attacks.

Without using power scaling what problem is there with Goku having a hard time lifting that building?
And why would he not use ki while training? Thats where his power comes from. Besides he definitely was using some since he can't fly without it.

[TonyTheTiger]

Superman
energy offense (I don't know but less than Goku)

I'm not so sure.




While that's "only" Super Saiyan 2 Gohan it's still quite a difference.

[Bussani]

I've always pretty much taken it for granted that the reason Goku et al can punch through rocks and whatnot is because they're enhancing their punches with ki. But maybe my thinking on the matter is too influenced by Hunter x Hunter.

You're not the only one! That said, Hunter x Hunter kind of has two versions: you can use nen to enhance the defence of your fist or the strength of your muscles, or you can simply pour all of your nen into your fist and deliver and explosive blow. I kind of think Dragon Ball uses both too, with the former being more normal, and the latter being closer to how Goku punched a hole straight through Piccolo Daimao. I guess Super Dragon Fist is also the same sort of thing.

Anyway, has Goku ever actually taken a planet-killing attack head on? Don't they normally counter these things, or deflect them without causing them to detonate?

[TonyTheTiger]

Anyway, has Goku ever actually taken a planet-killing attack head on?

Yeah, he died.

[Bussani]

And that was from an attack by a Cell who should have been much, much weaker than him. Although I guess he was tired, so maybe that's not entirely fair...

Anyway, even if Dragon Ball characters could momentarily raise their defence to withstand such an attack, they couldn't keep it up forever, right? I mean, Goku's stamina dropped notably after he launched a Kamehameha with all of his power behind it; I'd presume if he had to block such an attack it would use up just as much of his stamina to do so.

[TonyTheTiger]

It always boils to the same problem, though. Dragon Ball is so much about the characters surpassing themselves that any apparent weakness at point A in the story can be easily questioned at point B. "Cell blew up Goku" can be met with the counter "But Buu saga Goku..." or "But Super Saiyan 4 Goku..." Now whether or not it can be established that Super Saiyan 4 Goku could tank the explosion that killed his Cell saga self is another story. But the question never goes away. Could Goku at any point in the story tank a Makankosappo or does it penetrate no matter what? Cooler didn't appreciate the sun very much but would GT Goku be able to take the heat? We can always point to this Goku's weaknesses but we rarely know for sure that they also apply to that Goku.

That's why I bring up the multiplier and how it actually applies to different attributes. Let's say, for argument base Goku can barely resist the heat of your average flame (about 1,000 °C). Multiplying 1,000 °C by 4000 (Super Saiyan 4's multiplier) nets you heat resistance up to 4,000,000 °C. That's well above the sun's surface temperature but about four times lower than the core temp. Ok, fair enough. But Goku's power at base is hard to pinpoint during the course of the story. Some people think he got immeasurably stronger while others don't think his base form ever significantly surpasses his 3,000,000 on Namek. So who's to say whether or not GT base Goku can handle more than 1,000 °C?

Same deal with strength. Base Goku struggles with 40 tons. Ok, multiply that by 4000 and it means Super Saiyan 4 Goku can lift 160,000 tons. To put that in perspective, the Washington National Cathedral weighs about 150,000 tons. But this is a base Goku earlier in the story. So maybe GT base Goku wouldn't struggle with 40 tons which changes his max at Super Saiyan 4.

Of course it does seem that, no matter the math, Goku's physical strength is substantially beneath Superman's. We just don't see him lift much and when we do he usually struggles. This generally jives with how I've always seen Dragon Ball anyway. I always assumed that their ki attacks had far more punch than their actual bodies. That's what made the androids so terrifying at first. They put the kibosh on the most effective attack strategy.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And that was from an attack by a Cell who should have been much, much weaker than him. Although I guess he was tired, so maybe that's not entirely fair...

The bomb wasn't equal with Cell, obviously.

Also, I doubt they are going to use Pre-Crisis Superman. I would say that the Modern Era version is the most likely.

[Bussani]

The bomb wasn't equal with Cell, obviously.

What do you mean? Did Cell use a bomb? Or do you just mean that Cell's self-destruct technique was more powerful than he was?

I mean, I do imagine self-destructing all of your energy at once is the biggest attack you can possibly do, but I still thought it was worth mentioning.

[dario03]

The bomb wasn't equal with Cell, obviously.

What do you mean? Did Cell use a bomb? Or do you just mean that Cell's self-destruct technique was more powerful than he was?

I mean, I do imagine self-destructing all of your energy at once is the biggest attack you can possibly do, but I still thought it was worth mentioning.

Well Cell would of had the bomb from 17 right? I would guess he was capable of using it, though I don't recall him actually saying that he could or was using it.

[rereboy]

The distiction is not irrelevent. To use the RPG example again you could have 2 attacks that both do 1000 base damage one thats physical and one thats magical but depending on what you use it against it might end up doing 100 damage or it might do 2000 it just depends on if the target is strong or weak against something. So if this was a RPG I would have Goku as a mage with great energy attack and defense and superman would be a warrior/tank with a magic protection ring or some random thing like that.

Irrelevant because Goku wouldn't fight Superman without fully using his Ki which complements his physical abilities. Therefore, its pointless to argue his physical ability alone.

Without using power scaling what problem is there with Goku having a hard time lifting that building?

A logical one. Its impossible for Goku to be able to lift that Giant Piccolo or be much stronger than Tao Pai Pai and have a hard time lifting a building when he is literally millions or even billions of times stronger than he was by then.

Not to mention that we also saw Piccolo lifting huge pyramids by just concentrating his power in the saiyan saga (even though that was filler), and Freeza and Cell lifting huge pieces of rock effortlessly just by concentrating their Ki on lifting them. There's no reason for Goku to not be able to do the same if he wants to.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The bomb wasn't equal with Cell, obviously.

What do you mean? Did Cell use a bomb? Or do you just mean that Cell's self-destruct technique was more powerful than he was?

I mean, I do imagine self-destructing all of your energy at once is the biggest attack you can possibly do, but I still thought it was worth mentioning.

He did had #17 in him, so his self-destruction should be combined with that bomb, and the bombs that Dr. Gero created were stated to be extremely powerful.

[dario03]

The distiction is not irrelevent. To use the RPG example again you could have 2 attacks that both do 1000 base damage one thats physical and one thats magical but depending on what you use it against it might end up doing 100 damage or it might do 2000 it just depends on if the target is strong or weak against something. So if this was a RPG I would have Goku as a mage with great energy attack and defense and superman would be a warrior/tank with a magic protection ring or some random thing like that.

Irrelevant because Goku wouldn't fight Superman without fully using his Ki which complements his physical abilities. Therefore, its pointless to argue his physical ability alone.

Its perfectly possible to argue his physical ability. Using his Ki to compliment his physical ability is what we're assuming he does in his fights but yet he has never shown physical strength at Superman's level. In no way what so ever am I saying that Goku can only use non-ki enhanced strength, I'm saying his ki enhanced strength doesn't compare to Superman.

Without using power scaling what problem is there with Goku having a hard time lifting that building?

A logical one. Its impossible for Goku to be able to lift that Giant Piccolo or be much stronger than Tao Pai Pai and have a hard time lifting a building when he is literally millions or even billions of times stronger than he was by then.

Not to mention that we also saw Piccolo lifting huge pyramids by just concentrating his power in the saiyan saga (even though that was filler), and Freeza and Cell lifting huge pieces of rock effortlessly just by concentrating their Ki on lifting them. There's no reason for Goku to not be able to do the same if he wants to.

Thats power scaling. You can try and figure out what they can and can't do with it if you want but theres way to many unknowns to really do it. For instance we don't know how much a power level affects lifting ability. If you double your power level can you lift 2x as much or is it only 1.1x as much because you also became faster and tougher and stronger ki attacks. Thats why I just picked the best show of strength that I know of and used that as the comparison (though apparently pyramids are a lot heavier than i thought).

But if you want to use power scaling then heres a example if we assume that 2x power level is 2x strength. And we assume that Superman moves the Earth as easy as Piccolo moved those pyramids (even though Superman benched it for days we'll just say as easy). And we assume Goku can apply his ki like Piccolo did in that scene then for Goku to move the Earth like Superman we could say something like
Earth ~6,600,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons
Great Pyramid (generous comparison) ~6,000,000 tons x 3
Piccolo power level during filler scene ~500
So the Earth is ~366,666,666,666,666 x the weight of 3 huge pyramids.
~500 x ~366,666,666,666,666 is ~183,333,333,333,333,333
So even in a almost best case scenario Goku would need a power level of over 180,000,000,000,000,000 to move the Earth like Superman. So being millions or even billions times stronger than he was against Piccolo still isn't even close to Superman. He actually needs to be closer to millions AND billions time stronger. Of course we don't know what his power level becomes but being over a billion times as strong as when he first became a Super Saiyan is a really big guesstimate.