Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[rereboy]

In no way what so ever am I saying that Goku can only use non-ki enhanced strength, I'm saying his ki enhanced strength doesn't compare to Superman.

Then just say so instead of dwelling in a mere aspect of Goku's power which we have no way to exactly quantify, because all that matters in the fight is how well can Goku tank Superman's attacks and how much he can hurt Superman. And to that, only his total power and defense is relevant.

[rereboy]

Thats power scaling. You can try and figure out what they can and can't do with it if you want but theres way to many unknowns to really do it. For instance we don't know how much a power level affects lifting ability. If you double your power level can you lift 2x as much or is it only 1.1x as much because you also became faster and tougher and stronger ki attacks. Thats why I just picked the best show of strength that I know of and used that as the comparison (though apparently pyramids are a lot heavier than i thought).

But if you want to use power scaling then heres a example if we assume that 2x power level is 2x strength. And we assume that Superman moves the Earth as easy as Piccolo moved those pyramids (even though Superman benched it for days we'll just say as easy). And we assume Goku can apply his ki like Piccolo did in that scene then for Goku to move the Earth like Superman we could say something like
Earth ~6,600,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons
Great Pyramid (generous comparison) ~6,000,000 tons x 3
Piccolo power level during filler scene ~500
So the Earth is ~366,666,666,666,666 x the weight of 3 huge pyramids.
~500 x ~366,666,666,666,666 is ~183,333,333,333,333,333
So even in a almost best case scenario Goku would need a power level of over 180,000,000,000,000,000 to move the Earth like Superman. So being millions or even billions times stronger than he was against Piccolo still isn't even close to Superman. He actually needs to be closer to millions AND billions time stronger. Of course we don't know what his power level becomes but being over a billion times as strong as when he first became a Super Saiyan is a really big guesstimate.

Dragon Ball is based in power scaling and surpassing the previous maximum power. We can't just ignore that factor. So there's no way for the entire franchise to be logical if Goku at the end of the series can't do something a lot better than he did when he was young. That's just how the series works. Any inconsistency that puts that in question is just that, an inconsistency and should be treated as such and/or as a inability of the author in properly conveying the power scaling in that moment.

I won't discuss math with you because I just find that kind of ridiculous, overrun with assumptions and because I'm fairly sure that the authors in both Dragon Ball and the different Superman series never actually calculated mathematically these feats or cared about that kind of numbers, but also because I don't think they will consider a Superman capable of that feat (and others like destroying a solar system by sneezing) but a more modern version of him in this fight. There's no doubt that there are various versions of Superman much stronger than Goku, but they don't just use the strongest version of the character that ever appeared in these fights. They try to reach a consensus between the various versions and/or just ignore some versions that should be ignored.

[Puto]

And that was from an attack by a Cell who should have been much, much weaker than him. Although I guess he was tired, so maybe that's not entirely fair...

He ate a Senzu after Gohan went SS2.

[dario03]

The Superman that benched the equilevent weight of the earth for 5 days is a more modern version of Superman. Actually the comic for that scan is probably from this year or late last year at most. And yeah I don't like using power scaling because of the math and assumptions either but thats why I tried just picking the best feats. We can't just assume that Goku could match Superman because he gets stronger especially since the feats are so far apart its insane. And sure they could ignore that Superman (and probably will ignore solar system sneeze superman) but that just depends on how much they want to pick and choose and I think ignoring that version is being very picky since its modern.

In no way what so ever am I saying that Goku can only use non-ki enhanced strength, I'm saying his ki enhanced strength doesn't compare to Superman.

Then just say so instead of dwelling in a mere aspect of Goku's power which we have no way to exactly quantify, because all that matters in the fight is how well can Goku tank Superman's attacks and how much he can hurt Superman. And to that, only his total power and defense is relevant.

I did say that, actually thats what I've been saying since the very beginning and I even quoted myself once before.

I would assume that folks are referring to physical attacks being these "busting" (ugh, that phrase is driving me nuts...!) attacks, rather than ki-based attacks, and specifically projectiles.

That being said, we've seen Goku infuse his finger with ki when he was blocking Trunks' sword swings right after their mutual arrivals, so there's absolutely nothing out of the question in terms of Goku infusing his fist with some amount of ki to enhance that type of attack.

I think a lot of it comes down to durability. How well could Goku handle a physical hit from a guy like Superman especially the stronger versions? Perhaps Goku does enhance his physical attacks with ki and maybe even his defense with ki and so do his opponents. But Goku is hurt by those attacks and those physical attacks aren't usually breaking up planets (I recall the kai planet getting wrecked but wasn't that more from the ki and only shown as local damage?) and no one in Dragonball has ever shown physical strength thats even close to some of the stuff Superman has done. Best show of physical strength I can remember from DB was Goku and Vegeta holding up a skyscraper but that was end of GT with them being SS4 and they struggled to do it. And I would imagine a guy that can travel so fast that he flys through whole universes and has to be told to stop by God (basically) and can move multiple planets across the universe is probably capable of hitting pretty hard. I don't know how big those mulitple planets were or how big that building was but the Earth is something like 20,000,000,000,000,000x the weight of a large skyscraper like the empire state building so unless there is a better show of physical strength Goku is way out classed there.

Superman has been shown to live through huge explosions and powerful energy attacks and stuff that could compare to the ki attacks of DB(Z/GT) but has Goku shown he can handle the physical power of Superman? Even if Superman for some reason can't hit as powerful as he can lift theres still the option of crushing or ripping Goku apart if he gets a hold of him (which I think he could).

You figuring that I was only talking about Goku using non-ki enhanced physical ability is on you.

[dbzfan7]

Game rules and continuity are 2 separate things dude =/. I suggest you learn a thing or 2 about game continuity.

I suggest you learn what a game establishes, is what happens. Game rules write continuity. Not what you want it to be. I see you won't listen so I'm done.

Oh so level design in Sonic is canon? Yeah because that makes sense. The structure makes it impossible for the humans to get around. What happens in game doesnt decide the canon especially since the player more or less decides what happens. Ocarina of Time the game and manga come to mind for my example. the Manga decides what really happened in the game. In fact I have a perfect example of how the game rules and game continuity are 2 different things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze_uxxFJTvE
According to this Sonic is slower than sound based on in game events. Well official statements and canon state otherwise so 2 different things.

Still have no idea how you go against game logic and official statements said right infront of you so you can high ball characters, but VegettoEX gave the warning so i'm not escalating this any further and say I don't agree. The video didn't consider the difference in Classic and modern sonic size and i did say i accept official statements or guidebooks to overwrite other rules. But seriously i'm dropping the argument before I get suspended.

Anyways back to the actual topic. We will probably know on friday how Supes will be portrayed. I would think All star is out of the picture since he doesn't intertwine with the rest of Post Crisis, If he does, by the time he dies at the end, their can be no info past that and they would have to ignore the rest. I consider all star Supes different then Post Crisis due to the strength difference between them.

[rereboy]

...

And like I said, its illogical to be talking just about his physical ability when he uses it combined with his ki to fight, and its even more illogical to be discussing his physical ability when we actually want to talk about his overall power.

It doesn't matter if Superman is physically stronger than Goku if Goku manages to hurt him and defeat him with his overall power and it doesn't matter if Goku is physically weaker than Superman if his overall defense can tank his hits.

The use of Ki in defense will defend against Ki attacks and physical attacks, so your reasoning in distinguishing between physical ability and otherwise for the purpose of this fight doesn't make sense to me. At all. And I don't see the point in you mentioning it. Especially if you actually understand that his overall power is all that matters.

And it was you who made that distinction and started talking about physical power instead of overall power, like we see in your quote that you posted just now so... "On me". Right.

[batistabus]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!
http://www.screwattack.com/video/DEATH- ... ku-5292631

They're using the Dragon Ball Wikia. Mike...stop them

[dbzfan7]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!
http://www.screwattack.com/video/DEATH- ... ku-5292631

They're using the Dragon Ball Wikia. Mike...stop them

Damn you just gave me an image of Super Mike

"Will Super Mike the Super Dragon Ball fan stop the Death Battle crew from using Dragon ball Wikia. Will Super Mike be unable change the possible insertion of the misguided information. Find out next time on DRAGON BALL Z."

[TonyTheTiger]

After doing the calculations they were talking about, they're going to come up with an ungodly high number.

Ignoring the whole straight line vs. curvy path for the sake of simplicity, 1,000,000 km in 28 hours is about 9,921 m/s. Goku was at about 8,000 at this time. Fast forward a bit and he is 3,000,000 at base against Freeza which makes him 375 times more powerful than he was on Snake Way.

Assuming direct scaling, that means Goku had a max speed of 3,720,375 m/s at base vs. Freeza which converts to 8,322,241.858 mi/h. After multiplying that by 4000 (the Super Saiyan 4 multiplier from base) we get a grand total of about 33,288,967,430 mi/h as his Super Saiyan 4 speed. That's over 49 times the speed of light. To put that into perspective, as far as the DC Universe in concerned, this should allow Goku to time travel.

[dario03]

DC is kind of weird with their faster than light = time travel. Sometimes it does and some times it doesn't though I think they are more consistent now compared to pre crisis.

Sounds like they might be pretty generous with Goku. But where are they getting 400x gravity? I thought Goku only went up to 100x or are they just comparing him with Vegeta (who I think in the anime did 400)?

...

And like I said, its illogical to be talking just about his physical ability when he uses it combined with his ki to fight, and its even more illogical to be discussing his physical ability when we actually want to talk about his overall power.

It doesn't matter if Superman is physically stronger than Goku if Goku manages to hurt him and defeat him with his overall power and it doesn't matter if Goku is physically weaker than Superman if his overall defense can tank his hits.

The use of Ki in defense will defend against Ki attacks and physical attacks, so your reasoning in distinguishing between physical ability and otherwise for the purpose of this fight doesn't make sense to me. At all. And I don't see the point in you mentioning it. Especially if you actually understand that his overall power is all that matters.

And it was you who made that distinction and started talking about physical power instead of overall power, like we see in your quote that you posted just now so... "On me". Right.

*facepalm* just forget it. I've already explained myself multiple times, I'm not going to any more.

[Bussani]

And that was from an attack by a Cell who should have been much, much weaker than him. Although I guess he was tired, so maybe that's not entirely fair...

He ate a Senzu after Gohan went SS2.

Oh, forgot about that. Thanks. I don't actually see a panel where Goku eats one, but Trunks was supposed to give them to everyone, so yeah.

And okay, maybe the #17 bomb inside him was part of the explosion and was super duper powerful. Sooo...any other times Goku takes a planet destroying attack head on? I'm drawing a blank.

And like I said, its illogical to be talking just about his physical ability when he uses it combined with his ki to fight, and its even more illogical to be discussing his physical ability when we actually want to talk about his overall power.

It doesn't matter if Superman is physically stronger than Goku if Goku manages to hurt him and defeat him with his overall power and it doesn't matter if Goku is physically weaker than Superman if his overall defense can tank his hits.

The use of Ki in defense will defend against Ki attacks and physical attacks, so your reasoning in distinguishing between physical ability and otherwise for the purpose of this fight doesn't make sense to me. At all. And I don't see the point in you mentioning it. Especially if you actually understand that his overall power is all that matters.

Well, you do need to talk about the individual abilities of a character to take the whole into account, right? But I think dario03 is saying that even when he enhances himself with ki, Goku's strength, speed, and durability don't seem to be as high as Superman's. Goku's real power lies in his special attacks, I think.

[TonyTheTiger]

Is there any other point in the story during which Goku is shown to be moving at a certain speed at a time he should, in theory, be going as fast as he can? I can't think of one and it would be nice to have something later in the story so we can get a more accurate estimate than taking his Snake Way run and multiplying it by a bazillion. If he were really able to move 8,000,000 mi/h in his fight with Freeza he would have been able to pull off the stunt with Roshi's glasses even without Instant Transmission.

[Bussani]

Well, we at least know that Goku travelling to Kame House--which was 10,000 kilometers away--would have been impossible for post-Namek Goku to do in a second or two without teleportation. That would make him slower than 5,000,000 meters per second.

...Okay, so that's not really much to go on...

[rereboy]

Well, you do need to talk about the individual abilities of a character to take the whole into account, right? But I think dario03 is saying that even when he enhances himself with ki, Goku's strength, speed, and durability don't seem to be as high as Superman's. Goku's real power lies in his special attacks, I think.

Not when a particular ability can't be faithfully distinguished from the use of another. Goku wouldn't just use his physical power and not his Ki power along with it, so its pointless to argue about purely physical power.

His overall strength, speed, and durability is what matters.

As for Goku's strength, speed, and durability being inferior to Superman's... Well, I honestly don't know. The various versions of Superman and feats even within the same version seem too inconsistent to me. If, for example, you asked me if Superman Prime would be superior to Goku, I would say "yes", and if you asked if Goku would lose agaisnt the same Superman that was killed by Doomsday I would say "no way". Finding a level of power for Superman that is somehow adequate given his feats and versions is a pretty difficult task to me.

[TonyTheTiger]

If, for example, you asked me if Superman Prime would be superior to Goku, I would say "yes", and if you asked if Goku would lose agaisnt the same Superman that was killed by Doomsday I would say "no way".

I don't get why there's so much dissonance over this when the two characters have similar growth patterns, starting out comparatively weak to their subsequent godlike selves. Those are two completely different points in Superman's life. His fight against Doomsday happened relatively early in the Post-Crisis reboot* with Superman Prime being from thousands of years in the future. We could easily flip it around and say something like "Well, we don't know which Goku because Superman would trounce Saiyan saga Goku but might lose to Buu saga Goku." The Superman killed by Doomsday is like the Goku killed by Piccolo.

*Just to clarify, here's the lowdown. "Crisis on Infinite Earths" resulted in major changes to the DC Universe. In the case of Superman, the stories we now refer to as "Pre-Crisis" didn't just stop cold. They were actually drawn to a narrative close with "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" by Alan Moore and Curt Swan in 1986, essentially concluding the Superman story with a "happily ever after" style ending. That same year, "Man of Steel" by John Byrne started the story from scratch, retelling Superman's origin. Subsequent retellings have supplanted it but for our purposes it works to consider it the "beginning."

These "early" Superman stories had reduced his power substantially from Pre-Crisis. "The Death of Superman" is from 1992, arguably the "end" of the comparative weakness he was demonstrating. Once Superman returned, his powers gradually grew over the years as he performed greater and greater feats. "DC One Million" is where Superman Prime comes from. In the 853rd century (the point in time where DC would release it's 1,000,000th issue or something), there's an entirely new set of superheroes with a new Superman who isn't Clark Kent. Turns out, however, that the original Superman still exists as basically a golden sun God of awesome.

The idea that Superman's power wobbles up and down is a misconception. Whenever he is depowered or shown to be weaker than usual there's usually a plot point about it. I think the reason there's so much confusion on this issue is because the animated series took the John Byrne depower from the late 80s and scaled him back even more, despite the fact that it was airing at a time that the Superman from the comics had blown past his earlier limits.

[Hellspawn28]

It seem like on the Death Battle page that the fight might be taking place in a 3D arena.

[Jackal puFF]

If Goku destroyed the Sun, he would have a chance to win against Superman right? He'd probably kill Superman if he did that. Or you know grab some of that kyptonite..

[dario03]

If Goku destroyed the Sun, he would have a chance to win against Superman right? He'd probably kill Superman if he did that. Or you know grab some of that kyptonite..

Goku would have to know about the kryptonite weakness, and how the sun is the source of Superman's powers, and I think I remember someone showing that the rules say that opponents don't have info on each other unless they're from the same fiction and theres a reason that they would know it.

Besides even if Goku did destroy the Sun it wouldn't make Superman lose his powers right away. And if its the stronger versions of Superman the explosion wouldn't kill him and he could just fly off to another yellow or blue or other non-red star. And kryptonite varies in how much affect it has on Superman and they would have to be fighting in that Superman's DC universe since for some reason kryptonite only affects Superman if its from the same universe.

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

The massive blocks of text, the numbers, the equations, the memories...

This thread is like the old My Favorite Games forum.

[NintendoBlaze53]

Considering they said "In cannon with the Japanese manga" that means some movies are out of the continuity.