Gohan didn't go SSJ2 when attacking Boo's ball?

[Gozar]

Looking at Herms' translation, you could even say that he wanted to be like he was back then:

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

Interesting. This puts a huge wrench in what I said. The Viz Translation is a bit different and led me to say what I said.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I don't understand why everyone seems to have so much trouble understanding why Gohan didn't use SSJ2 against Dabura or to attack Buu's egg.

Before Gohan transforms, he has an inner thought remembering Goku telling him to fight like he was against Cell. Gohan then states that he "can't be like he was back then" and proceeds to tranform into an SSJ1.

It's pretty clear to me that Gohan is afraid of losing himself and becoming arrogant again if he uses SSJ2. Like the flood of power will make him overconfident in a real fight and he won't be able to make the right decisions for the greater good of the world.

This is probably one of Toriyama's biggest examples of real character depth and it constantly goes unnoticed.

That's...an interesting interpretation of that line that I never actually thought of, but I always believed that Gohan was just referring to how, due to his lack of training, he couldn't gain power from rage like back when he was a child at the Cell Games. But even if I were to take your hypothesis as fact...how come neither Gokuu nor Vegeta said anything about the fact that Gohan was fighting Dabra at SS1, rather than SS2? The only thing they commented on was that he was weaker than before, not that he was holding off on using a higher form that could've easily obliterated Dabra.

And, despite Kaioushin perhaps not being the best judge of strengths, his line to Kibito about him having not seen the extent of Gohan’s full power (despite Kibito having seen Gohan at SS2, which should be stronger than SS1, back at the tournament) is inconsistent. And if we can discard that statement based on Kaioushin’s unreliability (which is subjective in and of itself anyway)…why would Toriyama have put that statement there in the first place? He wasn’t trying to tell us that Kaioushin was a dope in that fairly minor scene, and it’s followed straight up by Kaioushin taking Gohan to the Kaioushin Realm and Gohan pulling out the Z-Sword (as a SS1), proving Kibito wrong about his doubts.

Oh, not to mention that he whipped it out with no problems, when Kibito didn’t even ask him to, at the tournament, presumably just to show off.

So, yeah…there’s still no clear answer about this ambiguous clusterfuck of a Boo arc issue. But I see your recent post in light of Herms's more accurate translation, so that's all I have to say on the matter for now.

[mistershin]

Gohan clearly wasnt SSJ2:
No SSJ2 Aura Shape
No SSJ2 Aura Spark

It could possibly be because Kibito was not able to replenish all of Gohan's Ki reserves. (He makes a remark about this)

Toriyama uses Aura Shape and Aura Sparks, just fine for Vegeta.
Toriyama clearly did not want to represent Gohan as a SSJ2 in those panels.

Also for Dabura battle, Gohan definitely wasnt SSJ2.
SSJ2 Gohan would have dominated that match. But Gohan was losing because he was in SSJ form.

[Bussani]

Gohan clearly wasnt SSJ2:
No SSJ2 Aura Shape
No SSJ2 Aura Spark

To be fair, Super Saiyan 2 Gohan didn't have either of those things during the final Kamehameha against Cell, either. If we go by the art it certainly doesn't look like he was Super Saiyan 2 at any other point, but perhaps he could have been, just for the moment he attacked Buu's ball?

I'm not saying I believe that, but it's a possibility.

It could possibly be because Kibito was not able to replenish all of Gohan's Ki reserves. (He makes a remark about this)

Well, he said Gohan still wasn't full, but he still continued to replenish him until he was done. I suppose that part is a bit open to interpretation, but Gohan also ate a senzu bean right after Vegeta went all evil "M" on everyone.

[smiley]

It's explained in the manga.

http://i40.tinypic.com/1zgjyd.png

[DBZGTKOSDH]

^That's not a real translation, it's a joke. But it does explain very well why the whole situation doesn't make any sense. Gohan has Super Saiyan aura and hair, but can hold his own without getting any injury by a guy who is at Cell's level? Same against Boo's ball, and Boo. He looks like a Super Saiyan again, and the whole universe is in danger, and he doesn't go Super Saiyan 2? There two are the most retarded points of in the whole franchise, seriously.

[smiley]

^That's not a real translation, it's a joke.

Of course. I was aware of that.

[Zephyr]

^That's not a real translation, it's a joke. But it does explain very well why the whole situation doesn't make any sense. Gohan has Super Saiyan aura and hair, but can hold his own without getting any injury by a guy who is at Cell's level? Same against Boo's ball, and Boo. He looks like a Super Saiyan again, and the whole universe is in danger, and he doesn't go Super Saiyan 2? There two are the most retarded points of in the whole franchise, seriously.

Two things though:

1. The line comparing Dabura to Cell is vague as to if it's actually talking strictly about strength, if I remember correctly.

2. Gohan's SSj2 transformation at this point in the story was shown to not be an instantaneous one. If the whole universe is in danger, it could also be argued that it would be unwise to make yourself vulnerable by taking the time to transform, when you very well may be able to handle the threat in the best form you have instant access to.

But regardless of how these two points are rationalized, the Buu arc does indeed contain what seems to be the largest concentration of brainfarts on the parts of the characters.

[Saiga]

The line comparing Dabura to Cell is vague as to if it's actually talking strictly about strength, if I remember correctly.

I'm not sure what else it could be referring to.

[Zephyr]

I recall people interpreting it as Goku meaning that Dabura was "just as much as a threat as Cell was", as opposed to being just as strong.

[Kaboom]

"About as strong as Cell" is a VERY wide and vague range to place someone in. Even just limited to Cell in his perfect form, consider how big a power difference there'd be between what Cell used against Vegeta and Trunks when he first attained it and what he capped out at when he became "Super Perfect" against Gohan. Dabra could fall anywhere in or around that huge range of power and be considered "about as strong as Cell."

[Saiga]

I recall people interpreting it as Goku meaning that Dabura was "just as much as a threat as Cell was", as opposed to being just as strong.

How could Goku judge that without it being based on strength? He doesn't know anything else about Dabra. That just seems like a stretch to me.

@Kaboom But he's just as strong as Cell and even stronger than that.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I always assumed Goku would compare Dabra to Cell at full-power or somewhere close to that, only to be better than that later, but yeah, the line leaves the comparison window wide open. From a story perspective, I'd like to think he'd compare Dabra to Cell at his best rather than a level where he's holding-back.

[Zephyr]

I recall people interpreting it as Goku meaning that Dabura was "just as much as a threat as Cell was", as opposed to being just as strong.

How could Goku judge that without it being based on strength? He doesn't know anything else about Dabra. That just seems like a stretch to me.

Dabura's ability to turn people into stone with his spit.

[Saiga]

I recall people interpreting it as Goku meaning that Dabura was "just as much as a threat as Cell was", as opposed to being just as strong.

How could Goku judge that without it being based on strength? He doesn't know anything else about Dabra. That just seems like a stretch to me.

Dabura's ability to turn people into stone with his spit.

That's a fair point. But that still doesn't make sense to compare him to Cell. And going off Herms' translations, it's definitely about strength.

[Zephyr]

That's a fair point. But that still doesn't make sense to compare him to Cell. And going off Herms' translations, it's definitely about strength.

Fair enough. For some reason I remember there being some legitimate discrepancy with the translation, or something to that effect. Can't quite remember where exactly I got that idea though. Might be the dub, Viz, or the anime subs. Who knows.

[Saiga]

I'd just like to add, that even if we ignore all other sources but the manga that there's one thing that I can't reconcile with Gohan being SS1 against Dabra: Kaioshin's quote about Gohan's strength:

Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

So the SS2 Gohan Kibito saw doesn't measure up to what Gohan showed later. How could this be possible if he was only a SS1?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Assuming that Gohan was a Super Saiyan against Boo's ball, his fully powered Kamehameha should be stronger than standing Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, since SS2 is SS x2, and Kamehameha's power is more than two times stronger than the user, proved by Goku against Raditz.

[Saiga]

Assuming that Gohan was a Super Saiyan against Boo's ball, his fully powered Kamehameha should be stronger than standing Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, since SS2 is SS x2, and Kamehameha's power is more than two times stronger than the user, proved by Goku against Raditz.

The difference would be mostly negligible, then, which wouldn't really explain Kaioshin's quote to Kibito.

I'm not really sure if a 2x multiplier can work for KHH in the later parts of the story, since it doesn't seem to apply to Goku's KK20 Kamehameha against Freeza.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Assuming that Gohan was a Super Saiyan against Boo's ball, his fully powered Kamehameha should be stronger than standing Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, since SS2 is SS x2, and Kamehameha's power is more than two times stronger than the user, proved by Goku against Raditz.

The difference would be mostly negligible, then, which wouldn't really explain Kaioshin's quote to Kibito.

I'm not really sure if a 2x multiplier can work for KHH in the later parts of the story, since it doesn't seem to apply to Goku's KK20 Kamehameha against Freeza.

Good point. It doesn't make sense for the technique to get weaker after the user has gotten stronger, though. Maybe the Kamehameha concentrates more than 2 times the user's ki, but when it gets unleashed, it unleashes less power but continuously, because it's a continuous beam, and not a technique that throws all that ki in the form of an ki sphere, like the Bing Bang Attack.