Kikoho

[Duo]

Common opinion, as far as I know, is that the "Kikoho" taps into the users life force to execute, hence the incredible power.

However, after glacning through tankobon #12, I came to realize it didn't say anything along those lines.

"The Kikoho...a move of enormous destructive force, many times more powerful than even the Kamehameha. It's power is so colossal, in fact, that the drain on one's own energy is devastating...warriors have been known to die by using it, and even if one surives, one's live is shortened. That evil Tsuru-Sen'nin...teaching him a move that should never be taught..!"

So, uh, where does this "Life force" idea come from and is it Legit?

[Jerseymilk]

Well I think that's it's been interpreted as "one's own energy" equals "life-force". That's how I read it anyway. And well, if it drains all of your energy than you die, hence it effects a person's life force in that sense.

[B-kun]

Yeah. And don't forget how exactly Tenshinhan died in the Saiyan arc - overusing his ki, including a couple of Kikoho here and there.

Even by the Cell arc, he collapsed after firing a few in rapid succession.

[Dayspring]

Common opinion, as far as I know, is that the "Kikoho" taps into the users life force to execute, hence the incredible power.

However, after glacning through tankobon #12, I came to realize it didn't say anything along those lines.

"The Kikoho...a move of enormous destructive force, many times more powerful than even the Kamehameha. It's power is so colossal, in fact, that the drain on one's own energy is devastating...warriors have been known to die by using it, and even if one surives, one's live is shortened. That evil Tsuru-Sen'nin...teaching him a move that should never be taught..!"

So, uh, where does this "Life force" idea come from and is it Legit?

People seeing+reading Tenshinhan die in the Saiyan saga well before learning what the Kikoho does? I dunno, neither my friends nor I ever had that problem, and I wasn't aware it was the common opinion until now.

It's not about two different energies -ki and lifeforce- it's always been about ki. Whenever a person is dead, nobody can sense their ki. Lifeforce is never brought up. So I'm guessing when you use up all your ki, you die, which is exactly what makes the Kikoho so dangerous to the user.

[Duo]

Yea, I think it's pretty much what you said, Dayspring. It uses up so much of the users Ki that the amount necessary for the body to basically function is even used.

Like Gohan said in tankobon 36 "Everyone has Ki! It's just hard to control."

Also, there was the risk of people dying if they gave too much Ki for the Genki-Dama in tankobon 42.

So, the Kikoho taps too far into the pool of ones Ki, to the point where the basic Ki required to sustain your life can be used up.

I guess my question is answered.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I think the scanslations said "lifeforce," but that was probably a mistranslation. It probably just said ki, which is basically lifeforce anyway (it actually means spirit).

[Bejiita]

I think 'life force' is a dub term used instead of 'ki'.

I always thought all moves like Kamehameha or other ki attacks drain your energy anyway, the only difference is that the other moves cannot be done if your energy is low enough, they just won't be able to produce the energy, whereas you can use the Kikoho until you're totally drained of your ki, resulting in death.

Here's a question that just came to me though.

It is said in the Namek episodes in relation to the Saichoro's death terms, it was if people can be brought back from the dead if the death wasn't a natural cause, but if the death was from natural cause the person cannot be revived, right?

So, if the Kikoho drains all of a persons living ki, how come Tenshinhan could be restored to life after dying against Nappa?

I suppose it wasn't a natural death, but if all the ki was used up then wouldn't he be lifeless if restored?

This may be a stupid question, but I wasn't too sure on what was meant by 'natural cause', I know it's dying of old age but if it also meant when all of your ki was used up, but also because it mentions how Kikoho shortens your life, so I thought if you've used the technique until you are dead then it would have naturally ended his complete life.

[Pedro The Hutt]

Because the dragonballs are just that awesome. ;D And well, you could argue that the Dragonballs restore ki as well. Or just write it down as another hole.

As to the Kikoho. It seems to be a pretty popular theme in shows with ki that if you use all of it that you die. For example in Naruto it's mentioned several times that if you use up all your ki(or chakra as it's called there) that you'll just kick the bucket.

Which of makes things interesting for incredibly powerful techniques, they have amazing results but they also bring great risk with them. =D So you might say it's all in the interest of exciting story telling. And a means of making sure that the character can't "spam" his or her amazing technique of doom.

[Bejiita]

Because the dragonballs are just that awesome. ;D And well, you could argue that the Dragonballs restore ki as well. Or just write it down as another hole.

As to the Kikoho. It seems to be a pretty popular theme in shows with ki that if you use all of it that you die. For example in Naruto it's mentioned several times that if you use up all your ki(or chakra as it's called there) that you'll just kick the bucket.

Which of makes things interesting for incredibly powerful techniques, they have amazing results but they also bring great risk with them. =D So you might say it's all in the interest of exciting story telling. And a means of making sure that the character can't "spam" his or her amazing technique of doom.

I actually think the Dragonball's fully restore your ki anyway, but it's not that I'm questioning, it is quite a complicated thing in a way.

It's the 'Kikoho shortening your life' business I'm confused about, when it says that it shortens your life, meaning not to use it excessively, when Tenshinhan is at the brink of death, let's just say he didn't use that Kikoho and lived, would a Senzu simply restore his Ki but still leave him with only a short amount of his life left to live? Or would it not do that and he'd die shortly anyway?

Surely if it shortens your life, when Tenshinhan was down to his last one before dying, it would mean that he used up of his 'ki'...or, 'life', and life taking process would mean that bring him back from the dead shouldn't work, because he is naturally using all of his life's force, which is what is being shortened by using the Kikoho. And you can't be returned form the dead if your death was by natural cause, which would be dying of old age, or using all your living energy completely.

Also, when Old Kai says that being SSJ before fusing would mean they cannot return to base form, and this would also shorten their lives, so this must mean becoming SSJ in the first place must ever so slightly shorten your life...which starts another question (lol) about how long Saiya-jin actually live, Vegeta says to Bulma that the Saiya-Jin retain their youth for battle. So they live longer than humans anyway...unless Vegeta meant that their life isn't actually extended, but they just look younger.

[Xyex]

The shortening of the life has always come across to me not as a decrease in life force (which is where I think the idea that it taps into your life force comes from, your using part and that's why it shrinks) but a weakening of your body from the strain of using it. If you over exert yourself it injures you. The Kikho is a massive over exertion that can actually damage your body.

[Casual Matt]

Whenever a person is dead, nobody can sense their ki.

What about when Goku first transformed into a SSj3?

Or when a dead Vegeta showed up on Earth to help fight Buu? Goku sensed his ki then.

[Duo]

Whenever a person is dead, nobody can sense their ki.

What about when Goku first transformed into a SSj3?

Or when a dead Vegeta showed up on Earth to help fight Buu? Goku sensed his ki then.

I believe he was talking about dead bodies and not restored bodies for the afterlife.

[Dayspring]

Whenever a person is dead, nobody can sense their ki.

What about when Goku first transformed into a SSj3?

Or when a dead Vegeta showed up on Earth to help fight Buu? Goku sensed his ki then.

I believe he was talking about dead bodies and not restored bodies for the afterlife.

Exactly. They couldn't sense their ki all the time because spirits go to the afterlife, a distance waaaaayy too far to detect unless you have an insanely large ki.

As for Kikoho and natural deaths, I say no since the kikoho's cause of death is induced stress (more or less), which means it's not natural (like Saichoru coming back for all of 6 minutes).

[Bejiita]

Oh, I didn't stop to realise it was the strain of the body that causes him to die.

Cheers for clearing that up.