Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[Bussani]

Well, you do need to talk about the individual abilities of a character to take the whole into account, right? But I think dario03 is saying that even when he enhances himself with ki, Goku's strength, speed, and durability don't seem to be as high as Superman's. Goku's real power lies in his special attacks, I think.

Not when a particular ability can't be faithfully distinguished from the use of another. Goku wouldn't just use his physical power and not his Ki power along with it, so its pointless to argue about purely physical power.

His overall strength, speed, and durability is what matters.

Maybe we're talking about different things, then, because I was talking about his overall strength, speed, and durability. I don't think anyone who talks about Goku's "physical strength" is trying to ignore the strength that comes from ki. They just mean physical, as in, lifting and hitting things as opposed to shooting energy waves. But if anyone is talking about Goku's raw, non-ki-aided attributes, they can go ahead and correct me.

As for Goku's strength, speed, and durability being inferior to Superman's... Well, I honestly don't know. The various versions of Superman and feats even within the same version seem too inconsistent to me. If, for example, you asked me if Superman Prime would be superior to Goku, I would say "yes", and if you asked if Goku would lose agaisnt the same Superman that was killed by Doomsday I would say "no way". Finding a level of power for Superman that is somehow adequate given his feats and versions is a pretty difficult task to me.

Whether we took the highest feats of averaged both characters' feats out, I think Superman would come out superior in those categories. I think that's all I can say on the subject.

If Goku destroyed the Sun, he would have a chance to win against Superman right?

Superman stores energy from the Sun like a battery, and it can last quite a long time. I think Goku would die without the Sun before Supes did.

[TonyTheTiger]

Considering they said "In cannon with the Japanese manga" that means some movies are out of the continuity.

They said they would only ignore details that conflict with the manga. While that does exclude a lot of plot points from the movies I think most of the demonstrations of power are fine since, despite possibly being in a story that conflicts, the power itself does not. So something like the weird Super Saiyan form from Lord Slug contradicts the manga but the Dragon Fist doesn't.

Whether we took the highest feats of averaged both characters' feats out, I think Superman would come out superior in those categories. I think that's all I can say on the subject.

I dunno. If they go with Goku being nearly 50 times the speed of light that may outclass Superman by a wide margin. I'm not sure the Flash has been shown to go that fast, at least not before getting sucked into the Speed Force.

Now, I happen to think that number is complete bullshit, mind you. No way Goku is anything close to that fast. But the lack of measurable speed feats later in the series makes it hard to argue with their math. Superman's speed feats are usually given hard numbers or frames of reference so there's no way they'll clock Superman as faster than 50 times the speed of light. Where Goku gets royally stomped is in strength. In an earlier post I crunched the numbers and it seems like Goku maxes out at the weight of a very large building. Honestly, that one single scene of Goku struggling with 40 tons does ruthless damage to his strength stats. Without it we might have seen the same kind of crazy math with some number from very early in the series being multiplied by a billion.

Want to hear something interesting, though? Even using a very early speed feat, the numbers come out pretty much the same way after figuring out the scaling. It's eerie how on the money it is, actually. As a kid, Goku ran 100 meters in 8.5 seconds, right? That's 11.8 m/s. The Daizenshuu has his power level at this point marked at 10. So then if we compare Goku's speed at 8000, the 9,921 m/s on Snake Way, that means when Goku is 800 times stronger he is able to move 840.8 times faster. When Goku is on Namek, at base he is at 3,000,000 which makes him 375 times stronger than he is on Snake Way. Assuming the same growth rate, that means that he should be 394.125 times faster than he was at 8,000. So just before transforming into a Super Saiyan, Goku's max speed would be 3,910,114.125 m/s. At Super Saiyan 4, his base power multiplies by 4,000. Assuming negligible growth at base from that point forward and a speed increase up the Super Saiyan ladder as a factor of 4,204, it puts him at a max of 16,438,119,781.5 m/s (36,771,026,712.37473 mi/h) or 54.8 times the speed of light.

This makes it very hard for me to deny the top speed even if it feels way off. But no matter how you crunch the numbers, he's really fucking fast.

[dario03]

Considering they said "In cannon with the Japanese manga" that means some movies are out of the continuity.

They said they would only ignore details that conflict with the manga. While that does exclude a lot of plot points from the movies I think most of the demonstrations of power are fine since, despite possibly being in a story that conflicts, the power itself does not. So something like the weird Super Saiyan form from Lord Slug contradicts the manga but the Dragon Fist doesn't.

Whether we took the highest feats of averaged both characters' feats out, I think Superman would come out superior in those categories. I think that's all I can say on the subject.

I dunno. If they go with Goku being nearly 50 times the speed of light that may outclass Superman by a wide margin. I'm not sure the Flash has been shown to go that fast, at least not before getting sucked into the Speed Force.

.

Nah, theres plenty of times Superman has gone faster than that. I don't know if its just inconsistencies or if the speed of light in DC is just absurdly faster than the real world (even though they've probably stated the speed in the comics) but they've shown him going faster than 50c. Pre-Crisis Superman would travel through whole universes under his own power(and DC universe size is usually depicted the same as real world theoritical universe size). And even post crisis has some really fast feats, some where in the deathbattle comments theres a scan of some people teleporting from a ship by pluto to Earth, Superman who was near the ship then finds them and travels to them in the amount of time that it takes them to have a short conversation.
And for the Flash theres that scan of him evacuating a korean city while a nuclear bomb goes off (I'm pretty sure that was from a fairly recent comic). The comic says he was moving at a hair's breath short of the speed of light but that would be to slow for him to do what it said he did. It said he moved 532,000 people to a hill 35 miles away in .00001 microseconds by carrying them 1 sometimes 2 at a time. But even if you assume he actually carried them 2 at a time and wasted no time in looking for the people then he would still have to move at over 8,000,000,000,000 times the speed of light (going by real world ~186,000 miles per second).

[Bussani]

I dunno. If they go with Goku being nearly 50 times the speed of light that may outclass Superman by a wide margin. I'm not sure the Flash has been shown to go that fast, at least not before getting sucked into the Speed Force.

Ah, well, I should admit that I was only thinking about feats we actually see, rather than these calculations, but I'm sure from the rest of your post that you already got that.

Want to hear something interesting, though? Even using a very early speed feat, the numbers come out pretty much the same way after figuring out the scaling. It's eerie how on the money it is, actually. As a kid, Goku ran 100 meters in 8.5 seconds, right? That's 11.8 m/s. The Daizenshuu has his power level at this point marked at 10. So then if we compare Goku's speed at 8000, the 9,921 m/s on Snake Way, that means when Goku is 800 times stronger he is able to move 840.8 times faster.

I remember working this out once, too, and I seem to remember having at least one other speed feat for Goku somewhere in the middle. I think it might have been the time it took Goku to reach Kaio's initially, which made him a lot slower than a linear progression in speed would suggest. His speed seemed to take a serious jump after Kaio's training, which, if we wanted to come up with an in universe answer, could be do to his bukujutsu switching from kinda-sorta floaty-flying into actual speedy flight around that point.

[rereboy]

What if Goku used kaioken and the red aura acted like a red sun?

[Mewzard]

I have my doubts on the matter of Goku's speed. In fights, they rarely change location vastly during a few moments of combat, and usually travel quite slowly to said places. Also, looking at Gotenks in the Buu Saga, he flew around the Earth a few times, took a nap, and talked to Piccolo in the span of 29 minutes. And that was in SSJ, if I'm not mistaken. Even assuming a generous 28 minute nap or so and a quick conversation, and assuming he circled the Earth a thousand times in one minute, that still leaves us with 16.67 (rounded due to size of numbers) trips around the Earth per second. While faster than the speed of light, it's not that much faster. Light traveling around the Earth at around 7 and a half times per second, that would me, under our generous assumptions (and rounded numbers for the exact time of light traveling around the Earth), that SSJ Gotenks would be around 2.22 times faster than the speed of light.

Also, their choice of specific multipliers seems odd. Goku's only 50 times stronger in SSJ going by the Power Levels the Daizenshuu give, but is it stated that it's a flat multiplier, or applies to every SSJ? My memory's blanking in that regard.

[dario03]

What if Goku used kaioken and the red aura acted like a red sun?

DC comic fans would riot

But that reminds me. I wonder if they are going to combine stuff or movie/filler/GT stuff to be more specific. They said they are using GT and other things as long as it doesn't go against the Manga. In the other world tournament filler Goku uses super kaio ken and in some promotional stuff for the Lord Slug movie they say he has kaio ken x100. So are we going to see SS4KK100? or at least SS4KK or SS4KK20?

[dbzfan7]

They have revealed a preview for Superman. They are using All Star after all. Though he merges with the sun at the end so how can you use more feats after that.

[TonyTheTiger]

They used All-Star just to confirm his "ordinary" strength levels. So while they're taking everything from 1986 onward as some evidence, they're actual only using the Superman that counts as "present day" Superman. In other words, possible futures like All-Star and Superman Prime don't look like they'll factor in.

http://www.screwattack.com/shows/origin ... w-superman

Still, assuming my numbers match theirs and Goku's max strength is 160,000 tons, that means Superman is at minimum...oh...416,250,000,000,000 times stronger.

Yeah...

[dbzfan7]

They used All-Star just to confirm his "ordinary" strength levels. So while they're taking everything from 1986 onward as some evidence, they're actual only using the Superman that counts as "present day" Superman. In other words, possible futures like All-Star and Superman Prime don't look like they'll factor in.

http://www.screwattack.com/shows/origin ... w-superman

They hint at Supes sun dipping in the comments and reaching all star level.

[SaiyanZ]

the fight escalates so much that Superman and Konvikt are throwing and tanking PLANET-BUSTING punches. This feat alone, as so many others, should put them above virtually any feat shown in the Buu saga.

Um, a Kame Hame Ha by Muten-Rōshi blew up the moon early on. It's flat out stated that Vegeta's Gyallic-Hō can blow up the Earth if it's not blocked. Pretty sure that ‘planet-busting’ isn't out of DBZ characters' leagues at all.

That's not what I meant. Of course, DBZ characters are casual multi-planet busters (Kid Buu being the obvious one), but when you can PUNCH a planet out of existence.....yeah. You have to also understand that Supes's speed when punching with that much force would most likely be too much for a Z character to handle. Its not so much the Planet-busting punch itself, its the amount of times Supes was dishing and receiving. That is what I meant when I said > Buu saga, but even then I'm probably wrong, since the best "feat" canonically is Buu and Gotenks ripping dimensional holes.

[SaiyanZ]

How strong was that Giant Monster in the first place? I guess the monster was just as powerful as Superman himself (I'm just guessing since I haven't been update to date with Superman). Only one more week to go until the video is uploaded. I still bet that the battle will end up being a tie. Even if Goku or Superman wins, we will still have people debating on who would win.

Shadow Thief creates the equivalent of our Moon. Superman flies into this Moon, destroying it, and gets KNOCKED OUT. Do you see the problem here?

From what I can remember that Moon was created from Magic which is something that Superman is weak against?

Not magic, it was amped by Starbreaker (that humanoid Sun-Eater version).

[dario03]

They used All-Star just to confirm his "ordinary" strength levels. So while they're taking everything from 1986 onward as some evidence, they're actual only using the Superman that counts as "present day" Superman. In other words, possible futures like All-Star and Superman Prime don't look like they'll factor in.

http://www.screwattack.com/shows/origin ... w-superman

Still, assuming my numbers match theirs and Goku's max strength is 160,000 tons, that means Superman is at minimum...oh...416,250,000,000,000 times stronger.

Yeah...

Looks like no new 52 feats either which isn't to surprising since thats another reboot. Though which is stronger new 52 or All star? I know new 52 benched the equilvent weight of the Earth for 5 days and All Star only did the 200 quintillion (one armed but still a lot less) but didn't All Star keep getting stronger? And what about the other feats? Not just for my question of who is stronger new 52 or All Star but for the death battle. They didn't talk about Supes speed and only showed the planet collision for his durability, and they didn't say much about heat vision or super breath or regen. I guess they could cover all that in the actual battle but I was expecting a little more quick facts in this preview.

[SaiyanZ]

They used All-Star just to confirm his "ordinary" strength levels. So while they're taking everything from 1986 onward as some evidence, they're actual only using the Superman that counts as "present day" Superman. In other words, possible futures like All-Star and Superman Prime don't look like they'll factor in.

http://www.screwattack.com/shows/origin ... w-superman

Still, assuming my numbers match theirs and Goku's max strength is 160,000 tons, that means Superman is at minimum...oh...416,250,000,000,000 times stronger.

Yeah...

Looks like no new 52 feats either which isn't to surprising since thats another reboot. Though which is stronger new 52 or All star? I know new 52 benched the equilvent weight of the Earth for 5 days and All Star only did the 200 quintillion (one armed but still a lot less) but didn't All Star keep getting stronger? And what about the other feats? Not just for my question of who is stronger new 52 or All Star but for the death battle. They didn't talk about Supes speed and only showed the planet collision for his durability, and they didn't say much about heat vision or super breath or regen. I guess they could cover all that in the actual battle but I was expecting a little more quick facts in this preview.

Chances are, if its All-Star Superman, All-Star wins lol.

[batistabus]

Yes Superman can move a planet, but isn't that more related to flight power than to physical strength? I guess it doesn't really matter though since he can stand the force of that weight machine anyway, even if that is after he's absorbed sunlight.

[TonyTheTiger]

There's a lot of chatter about "lifting strength" vs. "punching strength" and variations that all boil down to the difference between pushing/pulling something and fighting. And while there is some truth to this, there are obvious limits. At some point it stops mattering and strength just plain wins regardless of any other variable. It's why there are weight classes in boxing. Even if Superman's punching strength is just 1% of his lifting strength he's still hitting with a force of 666,000,000,000,000,000 tons.

I really don't see how Goku survives this.

[VegettoEX]

Earlier today, ScrewAttack put up a special behind-the-scenes interview for their "Advantage" (paid) members. It's about half an hour talking about the history of "DEATH BATTLE!", some of their favorite aspects of the series, and the amount of work that went into this one in particular. Kanzenshuu gets a nice shout-out early on.

It also ends with what they say is about "half" of the final, actual "DEATH BATTLE!" video for Goku vs. Superman. It's... pretty cool. Very excited for Friday, when the full video is released to everybody.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'm thinking Superman is gonna win this one to be honest.

[Hellspawn28]

Only two more days until it's up. I think paid members can view it early soon though?

[VegettoEX]

The impression I got was that they literally need until the last day to get the video done, which is why they did this behind-the-scenes interview and preview video for their paid members. Only two days off at this point .