Daizenshuu validity

[Enbi]

Not entirely sure if this is the right section for this topic; anyways, on this other forum I go to, there are these people who take the Daiz as the second most 'canon' thing after the manga, and then there are those who disregard it, those in-between, etc. Someone over there came up with this explanation as to why some of the Daizenshuus seem to contain contradictions to the manga, whereas others seem perfectly fine. He wanted to know what some others thought of it, so I figured I'd post it here.

First Off, Toriyama is the credited as Author Of all Daizenshuu's, with Collaborations from TOEI when the book has TOEI material in it.

Example: Daiz 3, 5, 6, 7.

Secondly, I think I also proved that Daizenshuu only have flaws and contradictions when people like TOEI get involved.

Daizenshuu 2 Organization ; Battle Volume: Caramel Mama (the company who worked on Dragon Ball Kai, and Chrono Trigger.)

Daizenshuu 7 Organization ; Character Encyclopedia: Caramel Mama, and this organization called "Kisousha" which I can find nothing about, however, it's one entity, and I smell Toei's name all over it.

IN FACT: Collaborative Parties from Daizenshuu 7 include: Toei Animation, and Fuji TV.

Daizenshuu 6 Organization ; Movie Guide: Solely the "Kisousha" organization. Caramel is not included.

Daizenshuu 4 Organization ; World Guide: Solely Caramel.

Daizenshuu 1 Organization ; Complete Illustrations: Solely Caramel.

The f*** ups only come when more people are involved, or different organizers are in place.

And in case you want to know who "Caramel Mama" is, here's their website.

Caramel Mama Website

So, you see?

F*** ups only come when TOEI is involved.

Finally.

You might be asking.

If Daiz is just collected information from the manga, why are there things in there that aren't supported by the manga?

Simple.

The Daiz Organizers interviewed Toriyama and then got the information they needed, and it's all off record.

Evidenced By:

Daizenshuu 3 Interview ; Conducted at : Toriyama's house.

Daizenshuu 6 Interview ; Conducted at: Shueisha Offices.
[hr]

So I ask again.

Do you see?

Toriyama is the only credited author in the Daizenshuu.

They expressly went to his home and he went to their offices for interviews that would be in the Daizenshuu's.

Is that enough?

^ So, thoughts on that? Something you already knew? Is his explanation good/valid?

[VegettoEX]

See, here's the thing: there's no defined "canon" for Dragon Ball.

Up until just last month with the Battle of Gods press release (and maaaaaaaybe Toriyama's "side-story" note for GT in his Dragon Box introduction), no-one in any official capacity has ever bothered to even off-hand make any sort of mention about what they consider to be any kind of - singular or otherwise - "truth" in terms of the series. They just didn't. Ever. At all.

That means it's completely up to you to define what your own "canon" is. Do you want to include GT? Go for it! Want to stick exclusively to the manga? Sure! Want to stick exclusively to the manga but overwrite Toriyama's "TRUNKS THE STORY" with the TV Special adaptation instead? Join the club! Want to include supplementary guide book information? Awesome!

I've written about this. A lot. My ultimate point is that it's up to you to decide, and there are tons of schools of thought to abide by (or ignore, or pick and choose between, etc.). Do you think that only information explicitly stated in the original manga is what you will ever accept as a golden truth? Again, sure, that's great. What if Toriyama says so? Does it matter if he said it twenty years ago or said it today? What about the other rights-holders in Japan? Where do you hold them in your own personal canonicity hierarchy?

And so that extends to not just the daizenshuu, but all the other guide books, too.

Believe whatever you want. Accept whatever you want. Ignore whatever you want. It's fine. It's absolutely freakin' fine. As long as everyone understands that some people want to include things while others might want to NOT include those same things, we're all one giant happy DBZ-loving family.

[Nex Carnifex]

See, here's the thing: there's no defined "canon" for Dragon Ball.

Up until just last month with the Battle of Gods press release (and maaaaaaaybe Toriyama's "side-story" note for GT in his Dragon Box introduction), no-one in any official capacity has ever bothered to even off-hand make any sort of mention about what they consider to be any kind of - singular or otherwise - "truth" in terms of the series. They just didn't. Ever. At all.

That means it's completely up to you to define what your own "canon" is. Do you want to include GT? Go for it! Want to stick exclusively to the manga? Sure! Want to stick exclusively to the manga but overwrite Toriyama's "TRUNKS THE STORY" with the TV Special adaptation instead? Join the club! Want to include supplementary guide book information? Awesome!

I've written about this. A lot. My ultimate point is that it's up to you to decide, and there are tons of schools of thought to abide by (or ignore, or pick and choose between, etc.). Do you think that only information explicitly stated in the original manga is what you will ever accept as a golden truth? Again, sure, that's great. What if Toriyama says so? Does it matter if he said it twenty years ago or said it today? What about the other rights-holders in Japan? Where do you hold them in your own personal canonicity hierarchy?

And so that extends to not just the daizenshuu, but all the other guide books, too.

Believe whatever you want. Accept whatever you want. Ignore whatever you want. It's fine. It's absolutely freakin' fine. As long as everyone understands that some people want to include things while others might want to NOT include those same things, we're all one giant happy DBZ-loving family.

I think GT is a continuation of the anime and not the manga because it contains anime exclusive elements and is just more consistent with the anime version of the story. I think the manga story had yet to be continued and that's the purpose of the new movie.

[Enbi]

I'm not really asking whether it oughta be considered canon or not, I'm mostly asking what you think of the info I presented, and whether it makes sense or not to you.

[Nazi Cola]

Is the info accurate aside from canonicity, basically is what you're asking.

I think it's a good find, and should be correct.

[VegettoEX]

I'm not really asking whether it oughta be considered canon or not, I'm mostly asking what you think of the info I presented, and whether it makes sense or not to you.

There's really no other way to answer it. It ultimately doesn't even matter who "wrote" them. What I mean by that is...

Are those people responsible for putting the books together? Yeah. That's not really "research" that anyone's done to "investigate" the "validity", though. They're listed right up front in the books. Right there. That's not helping to "prove" any "validity" one way or the other.

Something to keep in mind is that Akira Toriyama gets the "Original Author" credit for absolutely anything relating to the series, whether he worked on that particular product or not. It's one of those standard things that gets included. It's not that Toriyama sat there and wrote the words for Pan's bio in daizenshuu #7, and it's not like he wrote the potential back history for the Tsufuru in the DBGT Perfect Files... but he's certainly listed as the "Original Author" for both.

It comes down to: what do you want a guide book to be? Do you want it to regurgitate - perfectly verbatim - lines of dialog you already read in the series? Or do you want it to expand upon information, toss in additional tidbits, clarify some things, etc.? Dragon Ball guide books (including but expanding far beyond just the daizenshuu) do both things. That's their point.

And that's why, in the end, it serves no purpose to debate back and forth whether or not you want to accept what they have to say. Some fans want to consider their own personal canon only what Toriyama wrote between 1984 and 1995 in the pages of Weekly Shonen Jump. Some will expand that to other things he says in interviews. Some will take GT into consideration. Some want to go with DB Online these days. Some want to take what guide books say to expand the world. Some want to do pieces of all of those things but ignore other things.

Make your own world!

UPDATE: Just happened across the thread where this is all coming from via search alerts and referrals. No need to hide, folks . Got questions? Ask away!

Again, yes, those are the people that worked on the books. Like I keep saying, though... does it even matter who wrote them? Here's a fun exercise:

Toriyama, all by himself, with absolutely no outside influence, decides to sit down in 2012 and write a new background history for Dr. Gero. In it, he states that him and Dr. Uiro went to mad scientist school together. He tweets it out on a new official account. All him. Alone.

So, the question becomes: do you accept this as "fact"...? Toriyama wrote it. He's the author. Him and only him came up with it. But... he wrote it literally decades after he finished the series. Do you "count" this as "fact"...?

What if Ooishi wrote it? What if Toyble wrote it? What if I wrote it? Where do you draw the line on considering the information "absolute" and "truth"? Did if have to be written by the author, and did it have to be written by the author back when he was originally writing it? Or can it be someone else?

I know I'm just answering questions with more questions. I wish there was a real answer for you, but there just isn't. Toriyama, at the time of writing the series, never came out and said, "I will never consider anything written by anyone else to ever be a part of my story." Therefore, we're all stuck with each other!

(Also, Kanzenshuu isn't "completely dedicated to the Daiz". Dunno where that idea comes from. I guess maybe because Daizenshuu EX took its name from that word? We cover everything about the series, guide book or not. Maybe it's just that because we actually own all the guide books and can therefore talk about them that we get pinned that way...? Personally, I'd rather talk about the music in the series than what so-and-so wrote on page so-and-so about such-and-such a character in such-and-such guide book )

[Mjb1985]

Good stuff Vegetto, I've heard you speak about this issue of " canon " before, I really like how you put it. You and Kaboom have a very similar style. You sure Kaboom isn't just your power debate hungry dupe? Lulz.

[hleV]

If Dr. Gero & Dr. Uiro were stated by Toriyama to have gone to a "mad scientist school", that would be... funny. But good enough to be true to the original work. It would add the existence of this "mad scientist school" and Dr. Uiro (who's a movie character, but his robot form designed by Toriyama) to the Dragon World, but not necessarily accept the events of the 2nd DBZ movie in which Dr. Uiro appeared.