Cell a Solar System Buster ?

[Bussani]

You can't work out how much energy is needed to destroy a moon or planet or star using its mass alone. If you do the proper math, the Earth is around 1800 times harder to destroy than the Moon, so the battle power required to destroy it in the way Roshi did would be quite a bit higher than Vegeta was capable of at the time. Of course, applying math to Dragon Ball seriously would never work.

The solar system is a sphere roughly eleven trillion miles (~18 trillion km, or about 2 lightyears) across.

I guess it depends on where you want to draw the line. Pluto is, what, 6-7 billion kilometers from the Sun or so? You'd think destroying at least that much would be enough.

[smiley]

It's perhaps worth noting that an anime guidebook (Daizenshuu; I don't remember which one) says that he can destroy the solar system. Although in the anime, we actually see multiple characters destroy stars.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's perhaps worth noting that an anime guidebook (Daizenshuu; I don't remember which one) says that he can destroy the solar system. Although in the anime, we actually see multiple characters destroy stars.

I'm not seeing it. I looked into a good deal of the guides and I'm not seeing any mention of that.

[smiley]

It's in the episode summary of the episode wherein which Cell makes his claim.

Herms provided this a long time ago.

Daizenshuu 2 or 4 also confirms Saiyan saga Vegeta was not bluffing about his ability to destroy the Earth. Which just confirms something that should have been obvious without ridiculous over-analysis, anyway. The most obvious and straightforward way of reading things is usually the correct one. Because of this, I also think manga Cell can destroy the solar system. But I acknowledge there's no way to objectively prove this.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I certainly believe Cell can destroy the Solar System as well. Seeing as how Toriyama stated that Battle Powers became immeasurable past the Frieza arc there really is no way to determine whether he is or isnt. For all we know Cell could have a power level over 54 Nonillion.

[Bussani]

Of course, there are different levels of destroying something. Does it count as destroyed if Vegeta shatters the Earth, but the pieces fall back together afterwards under their own gravity? Does the debris have to fly apart, never to return to a single clump? If so, how fast do the pieces have to be going? Does it have to be a giant KAPOW! and the planet's gone in mere seconds, or could it take minutes, or hours? The amount of energy required varies greatly depending on things like this.

Personally, I'd consider the Earth destroyed if Vegeta's attack punched a hole through the crust and melted the whole planet. That wouldn't require nearly as much energy as shattering it at a decent percentage of the speed of light. But I do realize this is over-thinking things.

[TheMightyOzaru]

There is a good deal of evidence that Ki and DBZ characters are FTL.

[Bando]

Only problem is, Vegeta's claim was vague. Does he mean that he's going to blow the planet to smithereens? Is he just going to create a blast so devastating that it will scorch the planet's surface? It's uncertain.

Well he said he'd turn the planet into space dust. Seems pretty clear to me.

And even if we were to accurately decipher exactly what his claim was supposed to entail, there's no evidence one way or the other if he was simply boasting, making overzealous claims in a rage-filled flurry, or just actually accurately telling the truth (and given Veget'a track record, he tends to do nothing but make claims that he fails to actually live up to. That's almost his defining characteristic).

Vegeta is arrogant but that doesn't make him a liar. Every time he is surpassed he grudgingly admits it.

So considering Saiyan arc Vegeta to be a "planet buster" requires a lot of arbitrary assumptions. That makes it fairly weak evidence in regards to anything. Especially in regards to Cell's supposed status as a "solar system buster", which hinges on a statement that is just as vague as the statement that supposedly cements Saiyan arc Vegeta as a "planet buster".

Nobody's relying on this statement. First form Freeza destroyed a ten times gravity planet with his index finger. (This also makes Vegeta's claim easier to accept.)

There is a good deal of evidence that Ki and DBZ characters are FTL.

In one series someone can be a billion times more powerful yet only be Mach 50, and in another someone gets a hundred times stronger and become massively faster than light. There's gotta be a statement or showing to back up the powerscaling. Otherwise it's random guessing. That said I think they range from massively hypersonic-relativistic. Maybe Battle of Gods might change that.

On-topic I believe Cell can destroy small-medium stars. Maybe he can destroy the entire solar system but I tend to shy away from that (unless it really was mentioned in a guidebook).

[TheMightyOzaru]

There is a good deal of evidence that Ki and DBZ characters are FTL.

In one series someone can be a billion times more powerful yet only be Mach 50, and in another someone gets a hundred times stronger and become massively faster than light. There's gotta be a statement or showing to back up the powerscaling. Otherwise it's random guessing. That said I think they range from massively hypersonic-relativistic. Maybe Battle of Gods might change that.

On-topic I believe Cell can destroy small-medium stars. Maybe he can destroy the entire solar system but I tend to shy away from that (unless it really was mentioned in a guidebook).

Combat is FTL not travel speed.

[Rocketman]

Impossible. It takes infinite energy to move at lightspeed.

[Hitiro]

Impossible. It takes infinite energy to move at lightspeed.

Ki-based movement ≠ Scientific equations we know.

The Flash is a prime example of a character that ignores scientific laws, the speed force allows him to go even faster than the speed of light and he can do it instantaneously without any harm to his body due to the speed force. But I don't believe any of the Z fighters are anywhere near moving lightspeed either.

It should be impossible for a man to fly, yet they do in Dragonball.

It should be impossible for a man to jump a 100 metres into the air, yet they do in Dragonball.

It should be impossible for a man to destroy the moon using only energy from his body, yet they do in Dragonball.

There are no scientific laws or equations to explain how ki relates to anything in this universe or even in ours. So you can't start saying "it takes infinite energy to move at the speed of light" when we are talking in regard to something nobody knows nothing about. Ki could very well be an energy source that doesn't fit into the formula which has been dictated to us. We don't even know if its an actual energy in our universe it most probably is hocum made up my martial artists to express great strength in an individual.

[Bussani]

In the end, it's silly to try to prove that Cell could destroy a solar system or Vegeta could destroy a planet using math. For your logic to be irrefutable, you'd have to use the proper math. If you used incorrect or made up math, anyone could easily disagree with you, making it no different from just having the opinion that Cell could destroy a [insert big thing here]. The proper math, of course, will tell you that Vegeta isn't enough times more powerful than Roshi to destroy the Earth, and that Cell would have to be a truly absurd amount stronger than that to even have a shot at destroying a solar system. Which is in no way unexpected, because who would really expect Toriyama's story to match real world math?

[smiley]

Impossible. It takes infinite energy to move at lightspeed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiction

[Hellspawn28]

Only problem is, Vegeta's claim was vague. Does he mean that he's going to blow the planet to smithereens? Is he just going to create a blast so devastating that it will scorch the planet's surface? It's uncertain.

Well he said he'd turn the planet into space dust. Seems pretty clear to me.

I don't think he was going to destroy it completely. He would not be that stupid to kill himself along with the Planet.

[Hitiro]

In the end, it's silly to try to prove that Cell could destroy a solar system or Vegeta could destroy a planet using math. For your logic to be irrefutable, you'd have to use the proper math. If you used incorrect or made up math, anyone could easily disagree with you, making it no different from just having the opinion that Cell could destroy a [insert big thing here]. The proper math, of course, will tell you that Vegeta isn't enough times more powerful than Roshi to destroy the Earth, and that Cell would have to be a truly absurd amount stronger than that to even have a shot at destroying a solar system. Which is in no way unexpected, because who would really expect Toriyama's story to match real world math?

As I've said "real" math may not apply to ki, we don't know the effects of ki in the universe. For all we know the destructive force behind a ki blast may be exponential in how much ki is put into it. Or, ki in general may have the unique quality that forces the existing Ki in the Universe to react to it and that's where it gets its destructive force from. So for Cell to destroy the solar system he would only have to force his Kamehameha against every object in the solar system to force their ki to react and move away from the intruding force presented to them by the ki from the Kamehameha. Effectively working like some sort of opposing magnetic force which, as it pushes the ki of the object away, pushes the particles that make up that object away with each piece of ki they are attached to. Ki could be the driving force behind how everything is bound together. These are just assumptions but what I'm trying to say is the maths we know is probably not applicable because we don't know if ki falls into those laws that we have defined for ourselves. To say that Vegeta isn't enough times more powerful than Roshi to destroy Earth is only going by maths that we perceive to be correct because we are assuming ki follows the same rules and mathematical equations we have developed. Of course there exist things in the Universe which we don't understand at all and don't fit into the explanation of our maths. This is why Scientists are researching every day to find better approaches to how we can include such mysteries into our maths without breaking everything else we know.

[Fox666]

Impossible. It takes infinite energy to move at lightspeed.

Remember this Simpsons episode?

Only problem is, Vegeta's claim was vague. Does he mean that he's going to blow the planet to smithereens? Is he just going to create a blast so devastating that it will scorch the planet's surface? It's uncertain.

Well he said he'd turn the planet into space dust. Seems pretty clear to me.

I don't think he was going to destroy it completely. He would not be that stupid to kill himself along with the Planet.

He actually tried to kill himself against Freeza. But I don't think it's the case here, he knew Goku was going to try and stop the beam, that was his plan all along.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Impossible. It takes infinite energy to move at lightspeed.

Did you seriously just pull that card? This is fiction, the theory of relativity has no relevance here. Goku has preformed several obviously FTL feats, that don't include IT. I will show them if you like.

[Bando]

Combat is FTL not travel speed.

No proof in the form of statements though. Speed can only be proven if they state it or give us something to base it on. All we have for DBZ is "they fight faster than the last time they fought".

If you think you have showings you can post them.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Combat is FTL not travel speed.

No proof in the form of statements though. Speed can only be proven if they state it or give us something to base it on. All we have for DBZ is "they fight faster than the last time they fought".

If you think you have showings you can post them.

Very well:
http://www.animevice.com/dragon-ball/10 ... 97-314493/
This has a lot of examples from the manga. Oh and statements prove a point? Umm no. Evidence and feats prove points.

[Rocketman]

Impossible. It takes infinite energy to move at lightspeed.

Did you seriously just pull that card? This is fiction, the theory of relativity has no relevance here. Goku has preformed several obviously FTL feats, that don't include IT. I will show them if you like.

I did, and I'll pull another one. They can't sense something coming if it's moving faster than light, because it's outrunning its reflected/emitted light.


Also your shitty link is half unfounded crap, like claiming that Raditz is faster than light because he dodged the "LIGHT of Death" and most of Goku vs Vegeta taking place in a single heartbeat despite the fact that Goku's muscles and brain would fail for lack of oxygen if he expended that much energy in such a short amount of time.

Quit trying to claim pseudo-scientific backing. Either hide behind "it's a goofy manga that has no explanation!" or deal with the implications of reality. You don't get it both ways.