Goku and friends in space?

[Master Turbo]

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Before I get started I just want to introduce myself to this entire forum. I'm new and this is my very first topic and I would like to start it off with something that has always interested me, but I never fully thought about in depth up until now after seeing the trailer for the new and upcoming Battle of Gods movie. I noticed after reading pasts topics that no one is really sure if characters like Goku and friends can survive in space or not, but the new movie has certain scenes that raises this question once more due to the fact of there being pictures of Goku confronting the new antagonist Birusu supposedly in outer space.

Its an interesting thing to wonder, yet I never see it fully explored outside a few small sentences of opinions here and there before it eventually drifts away from the subject into obscurity. I have decided to give my two cents on the matter and create a topic specifically designed for discussing that very subject matter and what other better place to discuss it than here on this very site with helpful fellow fans of the Dragon Ball series.

So...for this discussion I will be examining all possible evidence to hopefully reach a plausible and reasonable conclusion as best as I (or we) can. If I missed anything that you may feel is important or that I may have neglected to mention then please feel free to bring it to my attention and further add it to the discussion, thank you. First of all, I will only be using the manga, DBZ movie 2 (Non-canonical I know, but it actually has significance for one of my points) and official supplement material to prove this. Anime filler and other DBZ movies will be excluded as they tend to further muddle and contradict things from Toriyama’s original assertion if you ask me.

I think a good way to start things off would be getting everyone to understand that all planets with an atmosphere have layers to it. The nearest layer to the surface is called the troposphere and the layer extending farthest in outer space is the exosphere. Also, there is a Karman Line which wikipedia gives us the definition of an area that lies at an altitude of 100 kilometres (62 mi) above the Earth's sea level, and is commonly used to define the boundary between the Earth's atmosphere and outer space. However, An atmosphere does not abruptly end at any given height, but becomes progressively thinner with altitude.

Also, depending on how the various layers that make up the space around the Earth are defined (and depending on whether these layers are considered to be part of the actual atmosphere), the definition of the edge of space could vary considerably: If one were to consider the thermosphere and exosphere part of the atmosphere and not of space, one might have to extend the boundary to space to at least 10,000 km (6,200 mi) above sea level. The Kármán line thus is an arbitrary definition based on certain considerations.

First things first, let me list some links down below to give you guys and idea of Earth’s atmosphere.

The first link is some illustrations to give you a rough idea of our own planet’s entire atmosphere which is separated into layers. The second link are pictures of the stratosphere from the New Zealand brothers, Zac and Josh Lyon, who launched a balloon with two cameras way up there close to about 20 miles above the Earth’s surface to capture those wonderful visuals. The third and final link provides Felix Baumgartner jumping from 24 miles (just 6 or so miles below the very top of Earth’s stratosphere) above the Earth’s surface.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2767/structurej.jpg
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8277/6818275.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img837/976/ftsx.png

In chapter 17 we are given this scene…
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6019/nimg015.jpg

Now technically this scene did in fact occur in the manga, but this was during the early portions of DB when it had a lot of silly gag style humor not to be taken serious, this definitely seems like one of them. Now you are probably asking why can’t we use this as evidence since Toriyama did reference Boss Rabbit and gang drifting through space in one of his interviews. Okay, this is true, but this appears to be Toriyama recalling it happening under different circumstances or retcon since there are later scenes (during the Red Ribbon arc) that directly contradict that scene with Boss Rabbit.

We have this scene during chapter 56-57.
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/4192/29072032.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8562/25078183.jpg

Unless I'm mistaken outer space is colder than Jingle Village (Which seems modeled after Russian type areas like Siberia and what not where the the low can be -60 to -70 degrees Celsius cold) so Goku wouldn't be able to take Boss Rabbit to the moon without freezing to death first.

We have this scene in chapter 70
http://imageshack.us/a/img823/8359/99776676.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img443/4554/uw2y.jpg

Goku in the next scene after this mentions the ocean is too deep and he can't hold his breath long enough to Bulma who's not there. This scene shows Goku does need oxygen and can't survive extreme coldness, but I think we have to ask ourselves more importantly to what extent can Goku and friends survive high up in different layers of the Earth's atmosphere without severely affecting them negatively.

The scans below involve Karin Tower during Chapter 87 which is way way up there in the sky where the air is much thinner than on the surface. First we need to examine Karin Tower to figure out just how high it possibly is.
http://imageshack.us/a/img51/7757/katoh.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img404/4203/kato3.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img10/2294/kato4.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img835/7030/dragonballonline.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img10/2397/dbwm.jpg

Karin Tower seems to be at the top of the clouds judging from the DBO picture, the manga scans have it appearing similarly high as well, and judging by the DB world map that area seems located near the equator or tropics. That would put those in the tropopause during that time of the year anywhere from 15-20 km. Though I doubt Toriyama any of that into account since if the place is that high Goku should be freezing his butt off like he did during his stay in Jingle Village without proper clothing so Karin Tower may be a lot lower than we think based off of that since Toriyama made no mention of freezing weather, just thinner air, but then again its easy to slip up on such details... Anyway, back on topic.

Goku reaches the top of Karin Tower which is probably between then 15-20 km altitude range, now, lets compare Goku's toughness to normal humans in regards to thinner air.
http://www.c-f-c.com/supportdocs/abo2.htm
http://mfwright.com/everest.html
http://www.summitpost.org/high-altitude ... one/371306

Humans are pretty tough, but we have out limits, around the death zone mark we simply can't compete, but a superhuman like Goku functions normally without any problems associated with the death zone. Kuririn, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu have also did the same did as Goku meaning these guys can survive just fine on drastically reduced air unlike normal humans that need way more to live. Though I will say Goku is shown panting, out of breath, and at times when chasing after Karin. In chapter 89 its noted why he's having a hard time breathing.
http://imageshack.us/a/img37/6563/chami.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img195/7224/cha2s.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img855/790/cha3t.jpg

Next is Goku on Kami’s sanctuary during chapter 164. Please excuse the low quality scans, I don’t have a scanner, nor could I find higher quality scans but if someone would be kind enough to give me better quality scans to replace them that would be most appreciative, thank you. Like before on Karin Tower, Goku appears to function just fine on Kami's sanctuary which is way higher than Karin Tower and has significantly thinner air, yet once he gets going when he starts exrting himself after a period of time he starts panting out of breath and gets tired.
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/6439/3jpg.gif
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/3333/4jpg.gif

There us a small scene during chapter 177 when Goku asks Tenshinhan if he can take off his weighted clothing to which he responds of course, it is pretty hot out here ain't it. Nothing too much, just Tenshinhan notably feeling the hot weather.

Next we have these scans from chapter 266
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6168/10jpg.gif

Vegeta after a period of time swimming underwater immediately gasps and pants heavily for air as if on his last breath after emerging from underwater. This scene implies Vegeta could drown if he doesn’t come up for air.

Next are manga scans of Bardock from chapter 307 and Episode of Bardock from Naho Oishi
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8184/bseob.jpg

Using the real life examples from earlier Bardock’s position in the atmosphere in both depictions appears to be around where Felix Baumgartner was in our stratosphere or possibly higher in the stratosphere and not actually in outer space.

Here are multiple shots of Bardock from the TV Special.
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/1509 ... vegeta.png

these are Bardock at the top of the stratosphere with Freeza seemingly in the stratopause.

In the animated Episode of Bardock feature everything is nearly the same with Bardock here seeming to be depicted anywhere from the stratosphere to the stratopause.
http://imageshack.us/a/img268/343/eob.png

Next is North Kaio in chapter 320 stating no one can survive in the depths of outer space except for Freeza.
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8539/5jpg.gif

In chapter 349 Kuririn and Tenshinhan are bothered by the cold weather while Piccolo suggest he isn’t like them though to be fair they do appear high above the mountains and most mountains have temperatures around -40 degrees or much lower which is inconsistent since Kuririn and Tenshinhan shouldn't be affected by that level of coldness.
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6803/29713079.gif

Next is Gotenks from chapter 482.
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2992/582y.png

To be honest this seem doesn’t look to scale and always seemed like artistic license in the vein of showing that Gotenks did in fact circled the Earth several times like he said, not that he was in outer space and such. Why? Because that panel always reminded me of ones like these.
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5162/sthk.jpg

I don’t think we are supposed to believe Gotenks is in space, but rather to show that he’s flying around the Earth more or less like I said earlier before so I don’t think this can be used as evidence as the characters being in space to say outweigh all of the other examples that show, state, or imply that they can’t really be or are in space. Next below is a part from official supplement material, specifically the special attack dictionary from the official guide books, Daizenshuu.

“Ki Barrier
Category: ability
People: Broli
Special Characteristics: A green barrier. This is an ability utilized by Broli, still a baby, during the destruction of Planet Vegeta. It allowed Paragas and Broli to escape into the vacuum of space, where Saiya-jin cannot survive. (Daizenshuu 6, p.106)”

Next are scenes of Goku, Birusu, and even Uisu in the upper stratosphere from the Battle of Gods film.
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4132/bogsb.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img546/3185/itm0.jpg

All those shots look to be in the lower to upper stratosphere at different angles.
http://diegoguevara.com/blog/wp-content ... oject4.jpg
http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/1.jpg
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/9900/100kft.jpg
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/2030/312ht.jpg

I say this because those shots of Birusu, Uisu, and Goku talking in the stratosphere look similar to some shots of Felix Baumgartner 24 miles above sea level, while seemingly even higher than that in other shots. For reference point the top of the stratosphere is around 30 miles or so than the Earth's surface at sea level.
http://imageshack.us/a/img46/8941/l935.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img542/6451/s0a1.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img843/4830/oxjr.jpg

Below is a statement from the full color comics Freeza arc vol-5 ask Akira Toriyama column.
Toriyama: I thought that things would get out of hand if they fought right there at Capsule Corporation, but naturally, the location changed. (laughs) To think that they’d go all the way into the stratosphere……but thinking about it, they’re both aliens, after all. Maybe they can just barely breathe.

Finally, BoGs shows without a doubt that Goku and possibly the others can survive okay with very little air which would be about 1/1000th the air at sea level around the top of the stratosphere he, Birusu, and Uisu where at. It looks like Goku and co. can possibly survive with very scarce bits of oxygen as long as it doesn't become non-existing, which is basically suggested around the Karman Line where it starts to become a near vacuum or basically outer space for real. I think at that point is where Goku would suffocate since there would be practically no oxygen to draw from so I doubt Goku and the other can survive say way out in the exosphere for instance...

Okay, that seems to be all the cases regarding characters like Goku and friends capacity to survive or exist in space in any kind of condition from the original series. Now, unto my next part.

Here we have DBZ movie 2, yes, I know its non-canonical, but its space scenes are pretty similar to the ones seen in the Battle of Gods film. The space shots seem a little inconsistent at some points, but I’ll do my best to list where they accurately seem in the actual snapshots.
http://imageshack.us/a/img545/9282/uiro.png

It appears even in the second DBZ movie, Piccolo, Gohan, and Kuririn where in the stratosphere for the final confrontation against Dr. Uiro. Makes sense considering earlier in the movie Goku was visibly shown and stated to be bothered by the chilly weather he was in the snapshot below.
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/217/gokuvk.png

In conclusion to this topic, in my honest opinion I think there is enough evidence to suggest that Goku and co. can survive in layers of our atmosphere up to the the end of the stratosphere/stratopause. Layers above that appear not possible except for characters like Freeza, Cell, and Buu of course. Okay, I think that's it, you guys and gals let me know what you think.

[AnimeMaakuo]

.

[Bussani]

I think it depends on what someone means when they ask if they could survive in space. It's sort of like asking, "Can a human survive underwater?" Of course they can--but they can't breathe underwater.

A human can survive in space for a couple of minutes, and would remain conscious for around 15 seconds of those two minutes before passing out from the lack of air. If you could hold your breath in the vacuum--which we humans can't because our lungs aren't strong enough--you'd be able to both survive and remain conscious for longer. Your skin would keep your body pressurised, which would keep your blood from boiling. You wouldn't become cold quickly because it's a vacuum, so there would be no conduction or convection to steal your body heat. In fact, if you were still as close to the Sun as the Earth is, you should be more worried about getting sunburned than getting cold! The other major thing you'd have to be concerned about would be the external moisture on your body (such as the moisture on your eyes or tongue) reaching boiling point from the lack of pressure. Yowch...

In short, I think Saiyans can probably last in space for as long as they can hold their breath.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

One thing I never understood is how the heck does the moisture from the body part reach a boiling point just from a lack of.... pressure. A boiling point occurs when there's enough high heat in the moisture. So how does that relate to the pressure without the heat?

Oh, by the way, the 2nd link of photo you provided above looks a lot like exosphere, not stratosphere.

[VegettoEX]

Does it really matter if they're in space or not? You're talking about a series where there's fusion. I mean... dude... ;p

If you're not interested, don't respond.

I, for one, found it fascinating.

[Bussani]

one thing I never understood is how the heck does the moisture from the body part reach a boiling point just from a lack of.... pressure. A boiling point occur when there's enough high heat in the moisture. So how does that relate to the pressure without the heat?

That's a great question. The answer is that boiling point is affected by pressure. As pressure raises, the boiling point raises; as pressure lowers, the boiling point lowers. In space, the lack of pressure makes liquids boil instantly. The liquid inside your body is safe, though, because your skin keeps it under pressure.

Of course, since the boiling would be occurring at a lower temperature, it wouldn't burn. In fact, it might cause your eyes to freeze due to a process known as evaporative cooling. Not very intuitive, but still, yowch.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

Hmm. Very educational. Another question. You mentioned the more pressure, the boiling point increases. But how does the lack of pressure also make the liquid boils? High pressure is one thing, but zero pressure is another story. Or am I missing something here?

Sorry, when it comes to science, I get very fascinated easily

[bleed0range]

Given what we know about Goku and his friends... I think it's pretty likely they could survive in the worst of conditions. Including the edge of the atmosphere/space where there is little air all the way to the middle of space (for a short amount of time) before dying. Not really that hard to believe.

[Michelle91]

I don't think they could live in space since I remember Goku was unable to hold his breath for long underwater. I think he need able to breath once he is in space for too long.

[bleed0range]

I don't think they could live in space since I remember Goku was unable to hold his breath for long underwater. I think he need able to breath once he is in space for too long.

Yeah but on the edge of space, there's still air to breathe in the atmosphere even if the air is thin. If you were as "super human" as Goku I'm sure you could still survive there.

[Bussani]

Hmm. Very educational. Another question. You mentioned the more pressure, the boiling point increases. But how does the lack of pressure also make the liquid boils? High pressure is one thing, but zero pressure is another story. Or am I missing something here?

The boiling point is how hot you need to make the liquid for it to boil. To keep it simple, let's say the liquid boils at a temperature of 10 under normal circumstances. If you raise the pressure, the boiling point goes up--let's say to 15. So you'd need to heat the liquid more than usual to make it boil. On the other hand, if you lowered the pressure, the boiling point would go down--to, let's say, 5. In that situation, only half of the heat would be needed to make it boil.

A vacuum has basically no pressure, so in a vacuum, all liquids boil right away.

Sorry, when it comes to science, I get very fascinated easily

S'okay. I do, too.

I don't think they could live in space since I remember Goku was unable to hold his breath for long underwater. I think he need able to breath once he is in space for too long.

To be fair, can we tell how long he held his breath for? The dummy was trying to swim to the bottom of the ocean.

[mister yummy]

If we wanted to get really far off into a tangent, I could go into here the relationship between heat and temperature, which is glossed over in the simplified example in the previous post, but I digress...

[Saitou Hajime]

Wouldn't their personal ki "fields" provide some sort of protection akin to pressurized suits?

[Hitiro]

Hmm. Very educational. Another question. You mentioned the more pressure, the boiling point increases. But how does the lack of pressure also make the liquid boils? High pressure is one thing, but zero pressure is another story. Or am I missing something here?

Sorry, when it comes to science, I get very fascinated easily

My understanding of this is as follows. When you are on earth your body is constantly under the pressure of the various gasses within the atmosphere. Because of this the liquid molecules on our body lack the freedom they would have in a pressure-less environment. Of course in an environment with no pressure the molecules have much more freedom to move about. Allowing the molecules to excite more easily because they won't be restricted by pressure. Of course this means that less energy will be needed to destroy the bonds between the molecules making them a liquid and will turn them into a gaseous form. By heating a liquid you are providing the molecules of the liquid with energy so they may fire off in all different directions and/or collide with each other. But as they collide with things, like the pressure being exerted on us by the atmosphere, they lose their energy. At so much energy the molecules should lose their static bonds with the other molecules forming the state they are currently which will turn it into a gas. Removing the element of colliding with the pressure exerted on to us however means that is one less element removing the energy from whatever liquid we're applying energy to, to make it change into a gas.

[Rocketman]

Yeah but on the edge of space, there's still air to breathe in the atmosphere even if the air is thin. If you were as "super human" as Goku I'm sure you could still survive there.

Wrong. The Earth's surface extends above the breathable zone. At the edge of space, there is not enough oxygen to sustain life.

[Hitiro]

Yeah but on the edge of space, there's still air to breathe in the atmosphere even if the air is thin. If you were as "super human" as Goku I'm sure you could still survive there.

Wrong. The Earth's surface extends above the breathable zone. At the edge of space, there is not enough oxygen to sustain life.

Oxygen can be found as far as the thermosphere it just doesn't amount to much, you can also see space and earth pretty clearly from the mesosphere which is just below the thermosphere, its more than likely that this is where we've seen Bardock stand his ground. But even the highest level of our atmosphere has a form of oxygen, but it is atomic oxygen which is a highly unstable gas that doesn't naturally exist on the Earth's surface.

[Rocketman]

Earth's air becomes unlivable five miles up. Space doesn't start until about 20 miles up.


But that's on Earth. Planet Vegeta had ten times the gravity of earth (putting aside that that's damn near impossible), so its breathable atmosphere would be even smaller, crushed tight against the planet by gravity.

[Hitiro]

Earth's air becomes unlivable five miles up. Space doesn't start until about 20 miles up.


But that's on Earth. Planet Vegeta had ten times the gravity of earth (putting aside that that's damn near impossible), so its breathable atmosphere would be even smaller, crushed tight against the planet by gravity.

Of course Earth's air becomes unlivable to ordinary humans like us but people with powerful lungs and a powerful cardiovascular system a race like the Saiyan's shouldn't have a problem with such a feat. Its not outside the realms of possibility that Bardock could have been on the edge of the stratosphere or perhaps in the region of the mesosphere. Planet Vegeta having ten times the gravity of Earth shouldn't really have any bearing on how much breathable atmosphere there is on the planet. For all we know Planet Vegeta could of had a larger quantity of atmosphere compared to earth which made up for the gravity. If the quantity of its atmosphere is 10 times(Or more, I don't know how much would be necessary without doing some calculations) that of Earths it would have a similar range of levels to its atmosphere. Its the same as trying to cram so much gas into a small canister. You might be able to fit a 100 m^3 in a 20 m^3 canister. The pressure exerted might be something like 1000 mb under if it had a centre point of gravity within it. Increase that centre point of gravity by 10 times and obviously the pressure on the canister should decrease, perhaps not linearly but it will decrease. So the only way to get the pressure exerted on the canister back up would be to put in more of the gas.

Of course I'm being very general, I don't know the calculations required to work out how much gas would be needed to reach 1000 mb again and to be honest I don't really want to go working it out. But what I'm getting at is just because a planet has a higher gravity doesn't necessarily mean that the atmosphere of the planet would be smaller. If the volume of the atmosphere is significantly higher then its atmosphere may be just as big as our own planet. Also considering it has a higher gravity it means that it has a greater gravitational area of influence. You would need to move much further away from the planet to escape its gravitational pull, this goes for gases too so potentially Planet Vegeta has the potential for a much larger atmosphere than Earths if it has enough air on the planet.

The only thing I have a problem with is the lookout, its supposed to be pretty high, I know Goku could tell the oxygen up there was thinner than he usually deals with and he got out of breath quicker. But how high are we saying the lookout is? If its as high as I think characters like Bulma and baby Trunks should have problems breathing.

[MasterVampire]

Does it really matter if they're in space or not? You're talking about a series where there's fusion. I mean... dude... ;p

I think it does seeing as how it was a big deal with Freezer blowing up planet namek so Goku wouldn't have any air to breathe making Freezer the winner by default.

[Corpsecreate]

I got a question. How come Goku cant breathe in space (according to Freeza, and common sense) but Bardock can when he confronts Freeza in space?