Cell a Solar System Buster ?

[Bussani]

I was referring to actual manga pages that prove Goku is FTL. Most of the statements made by the people on this forum are laughable this is true. However when you can can grab sunglasses faster than a Taiyoken goes off you know you are faster than light.

This isn't necessarily true. If we assume the ring is 80 metres by 80 metres(This is probably larger than it really is, I doubt its this big but I'm just using it for arguments sake.) and Goku was right on the other side of the ring for Goku to reach Kame Sen'nin, take his sunglasses and move to the his original position which would be a distance of 160 metres, Goku would only need to be going at mach 1 (The speed of sound) for him to get there and back in under 0.47ths of a second. Considering Tenshinhan had to say Taiyoken(Which arguably takes a full second to say, even saying it moderately fast, which I doubt he was, its still over a half a second to say) Goku could have grabbed the sunglasses during the time he said Taiyoken.

Then there is Goku completely avoiding the explosion Freeza's light ball set off in a split second. I'm sorry but some of this stuff is irrefutable. Goku's combat speed is easily FTL.

Goku would only need to escape the explosive velocity, given typical velocities in solid explosives often range beyond 4000 m/s to 10300 m/s. Goku would only need to be going, at most, mach 30.2 to escape the exlosive velocity. (For further information Goku travelling over Snakeway for the first time was travelling at around mach 0.18, of course he had to sleep and was tired from journeying so this is just a rough estimation, Goku was travelling at around mach 17 when he crossed Snakeway after Kaio's training.)

Wow. You made basically the exact post I thought I'd be making next.

I think your calculations assumed that Goku took two days to make it back across Serpent's Road, though. He actually made it back quicker than Kaio expected--about three or so hours after the Saiyans arrived, which was a day after he left Kaio's planet. That would make him about Mach 30 (assuming he actually travelled the whole length and didn't cut corners, which probably isn't the case since he was flying).

Do you have any source for that? That would be very unlikely, considering the moon has been visible on the sky in several occasion in completely different areas of the planet.

If you look at the panel where Boss Rabbit and chums are on the Moon, the Earth looks much closer than it would in real life. Not only that, but from the curvature of the Moon's horizon, it looks a lot smaller than in real life. Put that together with how large the Moon looks from Earth in Dragon Ball and you can come up with an argument that it's both smaller and closer than our real life Moon.

Of course, the real answer is that Toriyama drew it however he wanted, but if we're talking about how long it takes light to reach the Moon and whatnot anyway, there's nothing wrong with throwing in the above idea.

PS: I'm happy to believe that relativity doesn't exist in the Dragon Ball universe and that it's all some weird Newtonian place that works however the hell the author wants--because it's fiction and that can happen. I just don't think there's anything in the manga that says to me: "Look at this: this guy must have been faster than light here. It's the only explanation."

[Hitiro]

Wow. You made basically the exact post I thought I'd be making next.

I think your calculations assumed that Goku took two days to make it back across Serpent's Road, though. He actually made it back quicker than Kaio expected--about three or so hours after the Saiyans arrived, which was a day after he left Kaio's planet. That would make him about Mach 30 (assuming he actually travelled the whole length and didn't cut corners, which probably isn't the case since he was flying).

I have heard he made it sooner but I've heard people say Goku made it in no less than day. Frankly I'm sticking to the calculation of 2 days because the only source material we have of the time he needs to get back is of Kaio saying it would take him 2 days. I guess it is more probable that he made it much much sooner because we don't see them battling at night. What makes you think it was about 3 hours or so? I'd say if it was in a few hours its going to be 5 or 6 hours.

[Fox666]

Do you have any source for that? That would be very unlikely, considering the moon has been visible on the sky in several occasion in completely different areas of the planet.

If you look at the panel where Boss Rabbit and chums are on the Moon, the Earth looks much closer than it would in real life. Not only that, but from the curvature of the Moon's horizon, it looks a lot smaller than in real life. Put that together with how large the Moon looks from Earth in Dragon Ball and you can come up with an argument that it's both smaller and closer than our real life Moon.

Of course, the real answer is that Toriyama drew it however he wanted, but if we're talking about how long it takes light to reach the Moon and whatnot anyway, there's nothing wrong with throwing in the above idea.

PS: I'm happy to believe that relativity doesn't exist in the Dragon Ball universe and that it's all some weird Newtonian place that works however the hell the author wants--because it's fiction and that can happen. I just don't think there's anything in the manga that says to me: "Look at this: this guy must have been faster than light here. It's the only explanation."

Going by that the Earth itself isn't much bigger, it has been drawn in several occasions with an unrealistic curvature. Of course, in reality the Boss Rabbit scene is not different from when Arale was shown to be half of the Earth's size.

[dbzfan7]

I agree with Bussani. You can't exactly rationalize DB with math.

I think Cell could theoretically destroy the solar system since he really has no reason to bluff when he is winning. But, I can easily change my mind since I ain't entirely sold on the idea.

[Zephyr]

I think Cell could theoretically destroy the solar system since he really has no reason to bluff when he is winning. But, I can easily change my mind since I ain't entirely sold on the idea.

That's the thing though. Yes, he had no reason to bluff, but he had no reason to say anything at that point. He pretty much had it in the bag, and nothing he could say would really help him win. Despite that, he still made the comment about blowing up the solar system. Every time I see that scene I always feel as if he is saying that just to say it. To brag, to gloat, to rub his victory in their faces, and to strike even more fear into his already terrified victims' hearts. Bragging and threatening unnecessarily for the sake of getting kicks seem like very in Cell's character, given how much he takes from Vegeta and Freeza.

I'm not trying to argue that Cell isn't a solar system-buster. I'm just asserting that he wasn't trying to make an actual claim about the extent of his power.

[Bussani]

Wow. You made basically the exact post I thought I'd be making next.

I think your calculations assumed that Goku took two days to make it back across Serpent's Road, though. He actually made it back quicker than Kaio expected--about three or so hours after the Saiyans arrived, which was a day after he left Kaio's planet. That would make him about Mach 30 (assuming he actually travelled the whole length and didn't cut corners, which probably isn't the case since he was flying).

I have heard he made it sooner but I've heard people say Goku made it in no less than day. Frankly I'm sticking to the calculation of 2 days because the only source material we have of the time he needs to get back is of Kaio saying it would take him 2 days. I guess it is more probable that he made it much much sooner because we don't see them battling at night. What makes you think it was about 3 hours or so? I'd say if it was in a few hours its going to be 5 or 6 hours.

Kaio says the Saiyans will arrive in a day, but it will take Goku two days to get back to Earth. Goku sets off, and the story moves ahead one day. The Earthlings face off against the Saiyans for a little while before Vegeta puts a stop to it and they wait around for Goku for three hours. Goku arrives on Earth right after those three hours run out. So in total, it took Goku one day, three hours, and however long the initial fighting with the Saibaimen and Nappa lasted. Probably 27-28 hours, but I guess it depends a bit on how long you think the Earthlings spent fighting Nappa and the Saibaimen.

I guess it also doesn't say that exactly one day passed--it just says "the next day". It could have been less than 24 hours, or perhaps a bit more. Still, a day and a bit would be my guess. I think the guidebook timelines agree with this, saying that Goku was wished back to life on the 2nd of November and arrived on Earth on the 3rd sometime after Vegeta and Nappa.

Going by that the Earth itself isn't much bigger, it has been drawn in several occasions with an unrealistic curvature. Of course, in reality the Boss Rabbit scene is not different from when Arale was shown to be half of the Earth's size.

True, but it's still a possible interpretation nonetheless.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Umm Goku was encased in a light ball he would have had to move out of the way as soon as the explosion went off. Its also an explosion of Ki which has been proven to move exceptionally quickly. Not to mention Goku moved all the way to where Gohan, Piccolo and Krillin were standing within that split second. The attack Piccolo used to blow up the moon was near light speed and in the Freeza saga we see that Ki gets faster. All the Z warriors were unable to see the attack Frieza used to kill Dende and that moon busting attack of Piccolo's is slower than his Mankankosappo which Raditz could dodge with minimal effort. Sorry but if anyone is gonna believe that Cell is a solar system buster, we need to believe that Ki exceeds light speed by a lot and these feats back this up.

[Hitiro]

Umm Goku was encased in a light ball he would have had to move out of the way as soon as the explosion went off. Its also an explosion of Ki which has been proven to move exceptionally quickly. Not to mention Goku moved all the way to where Gohan, Piccolo and Krillin were standing within that split second.

Explosive velocity should be the same regardless, the point of it was that the ki exploded, its not the same as Vegeta's sacrifice where he purposely used ki to destroy everything in the surrounding area. What Vegeta did was not an explosion, what Frieza did was made his ki explode which should have the same explosive velocity as solid objects. Even if it was of a faster explosive velocity the explosion isn't going to be light speed. And Goku moving to Piccolo and the others position quickly doesn't mean he's travelling at the speed of light. It just means he's moving at a very high speed. As I said earlier Goku at the Tenkaichi Budokai could move 160 metres in 0.47ths of a second just moving at mach 1. If he's mach 100 he'd be able to move 16,000 metres in 0.47ths of second so he doesn't need to be moving at light speed to do these feats.

The attack Piccolo used to blow up the moon was near light speed and in the Freeza saga we see that Ki gets faster.

This doesn't mean its travelling at light speed to reach the moon. If it took 1 second to get there then it would be travelling at around mach 314(This is assuming the moon is the same distance away as our moon, it could be less as a lot of people think its closer to Earth in the DB universe), do you know what light speed is in mach numbers? its mach 881,000 so thats around a difference of 2,805 times. His attack would not need to be travelling at the speed of light to reach the moon quickly.

All the Z warriors were unable to see the attack Freeza used to kill Dende and that moon busting attack of Piccolo's is slower than his Mankankosappo which Raditz could dodge with minimal effort. Sorry but if anyone is gonna believe that Cell is a solar system buster, we need to believe that Ki exceeds light speed by a lot and these feats back this up.

Raditz had a significantly shorter distance to travel than the Mankankosappo, Raditz only had to move a metre at most, probably even less than that. The Mankankosappo had quite a few metres to travel before hitting Raditz. Raditz is slower than the Mankankosappo, he just needed to move a shorter distance to dodge the beam which made up for his disadvantage against the beams speed. If the Makankosappo had to travel 2 metres and it was travelling at mach 20 Raditz would only need to travel at mach 11 to move 1 metre to the left and have time to dodge it. Seeing as the time taken for something moving at mach 20 to move 2 metres would be the same amount of time taken for something moving at mach 10 to move 1 metre.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Umm Goku was encased in a light ball he would have had to move out of the way as soon as the explosion went off. Its also an explosion of Ki which has been proven to move exceptionally quickly. Not to mention Goku moved all the way to where Gohan, Piccolo and Krillin were standing within that split second.

Explosive velocity should be the same regardless, the point of it was that the ki exploded, its not the same as Vegeta's sacrifice where he purposely used ki to destroy everything in the surrounding area. What Vegeta did was not an explosion, what Freeza did was made his ki explode which should have the same explosive velocity as solid objects. Even if it was of a faster explosive velocity the explosion isn't going to be light speed. And Goku moving to Piccolo and the others position quickly doesn't mean he's travelling at the speed of light. It just means he's moving at a very high speed. As I said earlier Goku at the Tenkaichi Budokai could move 160 metres in 0.47ths of a second just moving at mach 1. If he's mach 100 he'd be able to move 16,000 metres in 0.47ths of second so he doesn't need to be moving at light speed to do these feats.

The attack Piccolo used to blow up the moon was near light speed and in the Freeza saga we see that Ki gets faster.

This doesn't mean its travelling at light speed to reach the moon. If it took 1 second to get there then it would be travelling at around mach 314(This is assuming the moon is the same distance away as our moon, it could be less as a lot of people think its closer to Earth in the DB universe), do you know what light speed is in mach numbers? its mach 881,000 so thats around a difference of 2,805 times. His attack would not need to be travelling at the speed of light to reach the moon quickly.

All the Z warriors were unable to see the attack Freeza used to kill Dende and that moon busting attack of Piccolo's is slower than his Mankankosappo which Raditz could dodge with minimal effort. Sorry but if anyone is gonna believe that Cell is a solar system buster, we need to believe that Ki exceeds light speed by a lot and these feats back this up.

Raditz had a significantly shorter distance to travel than the Mankankosappo, Raditz only had to move a metre at most, probably even less than that. The Mankankosappo had quite a few metres to travel before hitting Raditz. Raditz is slower than the Mankankosappo, he just needed to move a shorter distance to dodge the beam which made up for his disadvantage against the beams speed. If the Makankosappo had to travel 2 metres and it was travelling at mach 20 Raditz would only need to travel at mach 11 to move 1 metre to the left and have time to dodge it. Seeing as the time taken for something moving at mach 20 to move 2 metres would be the same amount of time taken for something moving at mach 10 to move 1 metre.

You do realize that if Ki hit the moon in 1 second it would FTL right? It takes more than 1 second for light to reach the moon then double that for the light to be seen from Earth. If the explosion was scene within about 2 seconds its light speed or faster. That aside:
.
Piccolo states Goku escaped light in an instant.

[Bando]

Space beams are there for convenient purposes. It's so the audience doesn't have to wait ten panels for the moon to be destroyed. Raditz outran Goku's KHH and he's still slower than Mach 33 Goku.

Paralyzing light was the name of the attack, it wasn't literally a binding light.

Chapter: 310 (DBZ 116), P13.3-4
Context: after Goku escapes from the entrapment ball
Piccolo: “The instant of the explosion, he used super speed to free himself from the paralysis…”
Gohan: “H-he did something that incredible…in that instant?”
Piccolo: “They’re monsters, both of them…Damn it all…”

There's no time-frame and Toriyama likely didn't intend for this to be interpreted as FTL, just "Goku's really, really fast".

[TheMightyOzaru]

Space beams are there for convenient purposes. It's so the audience doesn't have to wait ten panels for the moon to be destroyed. Raditz outran Goku's KHH and he's still slower than Mach 33 Goku.

Paralyzing light was the name of the attack, it wasn't literally a binding light.

Chapter: 310 (DBZ 116), P13.3-4
Context: after Goku escapes from the entrapment ball
Piccolo: “The instant of the explosion, he used super speed to free himself from the paralysis…”
Gohan: “H-he did something that incredible…in that instant?”
Piccolo: “They’re monsters, both of them…Damn it all…”

There's no time-frame and Toriyama likely didn't intend for this to be interpreted as FTL, just "Goku's really, really fast".

No time frame? Umm instant is a time frame. Convenience is really no excuse. Piccolo hit and destroyed the moon within seconds meaning Ki can be Light speed or faster. Ki can be slowed down case in point with the Genki Dama. Goku probably slowed his Kamehameha for precision purposes.

[Hitiro]

You do realize that if Ki hit the moon in 1 second it would FTL right? It takes more than 1 second for light to reach the moon then double that for the light to be seen from Earth. If the explosion was scene within about 2 seconds its light speed or faster.

After re-checking my maths I realised I forgot to convert the measurements to match which made it seem as if Mach 314 would only be needed to reach the Moon. You are correct, it would be FTL if it reached the moon in 1 second. However, this is manga we're talking about. Manga lacks accurate depictions of time between each panel. It could of been 1 second or even 1 hour before it was destroyed. If it took 30 mins that would be mach 628 If it took 5 mins it would be mach 3,771, that is still no where near mach 881,000 (The speed of light).

Also, in regard to the whole "He escaped the paralysing light" business, paralysing light was just a name of convenience Piccolo used. He had no idea what the technique was called, he just named it "paralysing light" so they knew what he was talking about. If it was "light" then Piccolo must have some special eyes to "know" for certain its light. Another example may be Mr. Satan could be standing at the sidelines in a Tenkaichi Budokai(Just 'cause) and see Goku use a Kamehameha which Mr. Satan would refer to as a beam of light but that doesn't mean the Kamehameha "is" light or shares any of its properties apart from illumination. As brought up by Bando in the Japanese translation he doesn't even call it "paralysing light"

[Bando]

No time frame? Umm instant is a time frame. Convenience is really no excuse. Piccolo hit and destroyed the moon within seconds meaning Ki can be Light speed or faster. Ki can be slowed down case in point with the Genki Dama. Goku probably slowed his Kamehameha for precision purposes.

Instant isn't a time frame, it's a description.

People in boxing manga always say "He attacked in an instant!" That doesn't mean light speed.

It's a time-frame when referring to Instantaneous Movement, but Goku doesn't have that combat "speed" otherwise he wouldn't need the technique.

If you want to pick and choose then Raditz isn't a moonbuster because his attacks only destroyed mountains. It could be explained the Earth wasn't greatly damaged due to plot convenience, but nah, convenience isn't an excuse.

[Bussani]

Umm Goku was encased in a light ball he would have had to move out of the way as soon as the explosion went off.

Would he? As I said, he didn't escape the explosion completely untouched, so you not only have questions like, "how fast did that explosion propagate," but also, "how quickly would someone with Goku's durability have to escape the explosion to avoid serious injury or death?" If he'd come out of it without a scratch, like the explosion hadn't even touched him, then only the first question would matter; but that isn't the case.

Its also an explosion of Ki which has been proven to move exceptionally quickly. Not to mention Goku moved all the way to where Gohan, Piccolo and Krillin were standing within that split second.

You keep using terms like "a split second" or "a moment". Apart from the fact that you can't really measure the passage of time accurately from still panels in a comic, these terms are just vague. That's precisely why I feel the word "irrefutable" is too strong for things like this.

The attack Piccolo used to blow up the moon was near light speed

Again, that depends on how long it took for the beam to reach the Moon (which we can't tell from still panels) and also on whether the distance between Earth and the Moon in Dragon Ball is the same as it is in real life.

I know you may not agree with alternate interpretations like this, but you can't disprove them, either. It all turns into a matter of opinion, which is why none of it is irrefutable one way or the other.

[Fox666]

If you want to pick and choose then Raditz isn't a moonbuster because his attacks only destroyed mountains. It could be explained the Earth wasn't greatly damaged due to plot convenience, but nah, convenience isn't an excuse.

Apparently you are not going to destroy the planet if you are not aiming to. They even mentioned something about it when Vegeta used the Final Flash.

[Bando]

If you want to pick and choose then Raditz isn't a moonbuster because his attacks only destroyed mountains. It could be explained the Earth wasn't greatly damaged due to plot convenience, but nah, convenience isn't an excuse.

Apparently you are not going to destroy the planet if you are not aiming to. They even mentioned something about it when Vegeta used the Final Flash.

Vegeta redirected it away from the surface of the planet at the last second.

[Fox666]

To tell the truth I am not sure of what Vegeta did there. Nevertheless, we see Ki attacks that are for sure strong enough to vaporize the planet hitting the surface and yet not destroying the planet, because the characters wasn't planning for it. One example is Trunks transforming in Super Saiyan to attack No.18.

[Bando]

For convenient purposes obviously.

[Bussani]

When Goku charges up a massive Kamehameha and aims it down at Cell (and the Earth), everyone's sure it would destroy the planet. Could Goku have controlled it so that it didn't? If he could, he probably wouldn't have had to teleport beneath Cell and fire it upwards. So maybe it depends on the attack. I mean, Shin Kikoho must be immensely powerful, but even if you aim it at the Earth, it won't destroy it.

[Fox666]

I suppose that if you hit the nucleus of the planet, it would be completely destroyed. But if you hit a part of it, it will only erase that part. So on theory you can use a attack as strong as you can, and as long you don't hit the nucleus, it won't cause more destruction than the area of the explosion itself.