Cell a Solar System Buster ?

[Bussani]

That does seem like the sort of logic Toriyama may have been following. I mean, I can't say it makes any real sense, but a fictional universe works however the author wants it to, and so long as it's consistent with itself, that's what counts.

[Deep Thought]

Yes, in a series where the central characters are aliens that are biologically compatible with/identical to humans who occasionally transform into gigantic laser-spewing monkeys, who get stronger immediately after recovering from debilitating wounds or by turning their hair blond, the destruction of celestial bodies is obviously going too far. These characters have been assisted by a 334 year old man, a shape-shifting pig, a talking cat (and talking animals in general) and several humans who defy physical limitations, including one who has three eyes. In a series where these aforementioned people collect orange spheres that are capable of defying reality, and when they themselves blatantly defied reality several times, notably by causing dimensional rifts by screaming and fighting as chocolate. Heck, the fact that they, tiny as they are, can push gigantic boulders without shattering them defies physics, never mind flying, chi-blasts, planetary destruction, body-swapping, spontaneous transformation, instantaneous movement, fusion, absorbing living beings whole and intact without adequate change, transmogrification, stopping time and all the crazy nonsensical stuff the heroes undergo every other chapter. Destroying celestial bodies is simply too wacky for me, especially in a series grounded in reality like Dragon Ball.

If this post is overly harsh then I apologize but it's weird that in a series that has relied on suspension of disbelief since day one (where a twelve-year old survives getting shot) that there are be arbitrary lines being drawn in the sand. I can understand if the series is a least a little ground in reality like Batman or Rurouni Kenshin, but applying this discussion for Dragon Ball? Here's the western equivalent, in many ways, to the dilemma in Dragon Ball:


"200 quintillion tons? That's an unfathomably high number and impossible to lift, this is nonsensical even for Superman. The scientists in the comic mismatched the data or lied or the writers of the comic are simply wrong about this." How reasonable of a complaint does that sound to you? I'd like to preemptively state that the position that Cell could be lying could absolutely be correct, I am not stating that he could have easily destroyed the Solar System, and I'd actually be inclined to disbelief that. I just think that throwing physics and reality in a series that simply makes no sense like Dragon Ball is ridiculous.

[dbzfan7]

Yes, in a series where the central characters are aliens that are biologically compatible with/identical to humans who occasionally transform into gigantic laser-spewing monkeys, who get stronger immediately after recovering from debilitating wounds or by turning their hair blond, the destruction of celestial bodies is obviously going too far. These characters have been assisted by a 334 year old man, a shape-shifting pig, a talking cat (and talking animals in general) and several humans who defy physical limitations, including one who has three eyes. In a series where these aforementioned people collect orange spheres that are capable of defying reality, and when they themselves blatantly defied reality several times, notably by causing dimensional rifts by screaming and fighting as chocolate. Heck, the fact that they, tiny as they are, can push gigantic boulders without shattering them defies physics, never mind flying, chi-blasts, planetary destruction, body-swapping, spontaneous transformation, instantaneous movement, fusion, absorbing living beings whole and intact without adequate change, transmogrification, stopping time and all the crazy nonsensical stuff the heroes undergo every other chapter. Destroying celestial bodies is simply too wacky for me, especially in a series grounded in reality like Dragon Ball.

If this post is overly harsh then I apologize but it's weird that in a series that has relied on suspension of disbelief since day one (where a twelve-year old survives getting shot) that there are be arbitrary lines being drawn in the sand. I can understand if the series is a least a little ground in reality like Batman or Rurouni Kenshin, but applying this discussion for Dragon Ball? Here's the western equivalent, in many ways, to the dilemma in Dragon Ball:


"200 quintillion tons? That's an unfathomably high number and impossible to lift, this is nonsensical even for Superman. The scientists in the comic mismatched the data or lied or the writers of the comic are simply wrong about this." How reasonable of a complaint does that sound to you? I'd like to preemptively state that the position that Cell could be lying could absolutely be correct, I am not stating that he could have easily destroyed the Solar System, and I'd actually be inclined to disbelief that. I just think that throwing physics and reality in a series that simply makes no sense like Dragon Ball is ridiculous.

I wonder how they have a machine with that weight. How the hell did they build that.

[Fox666]

"200 quintillion tons? That's an unfathomably high number and impossible to lift, this is nonsensical even for Superman. The scientists in the comic mismatched the data or lied or the writers of the comic are simply wrong about this." How reasonable of a complaint does that sound to you? I'd like to preemptively state that the position that Cell could be lying could absolutely be correct, I am not stating that he could have easily destroyed the Solar System, and I'd actually be inclined to disbelief that. I just think that throwing physics and reality in a series that simply makes no sense like Dragon Ball is ridiculous.

If I am not wrong, that's about 1/30 of the mass of the Earth.

[Bussani]

If I am not wrong, that's about 1/30 of the mass of the Earth.

That's about right. Doesn't that make the latest incarnation of Superman even stronger...?



Well, the first example does say they still haven't found his limit, but yeah.

I just think that throwing physics and reality in a series that simply makes no sense like Dragon Ball is ridiculous.

I know I'm probably the guiltiest person of posting real physics into these threads, but, in case I've never made it clear, I do so for the fun of how ridiculous it is. I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment. But hey, I like doing the real math and seeing just how far off from reality the comic is.

[LiamKav]

I agree. As long as we're sensible, there's nothing wrong with bringing in real physics for a fun discussion. Otherwise we might as well stop all these threads by making the second post "It's a fictional series. Don't take it seriously". And then maybe going out for pie.

[Rocketman]

I'm just sick of people farting out a couple formulas only so they can go MY MADE-UP NUMBERS ARE SUPER ACCURATE, like the stupid fucks in Ozaru's link going "FORCE = MASS TIMES SPEED" so they can claims BLARG HE HITS AT SPEED OF LIGHT SEE IT'S SCIENCE.

No. Fuck you. Either it's all stupid-ass comic book fun times, or you take a big physics dildo-slap to the side of the head for your insolence.

[Bando]

I also agree with that. Someone calculated that Namek's explosion was star level even though it's obvious Toriyama didn't intend it. Same goes for the space beams.

[Master Turbo]

When Goku charges up a massive Kamehameha and aims it down at Cell (and the Earth), everyone's sure it would destroy the planet. Could Goku have controlled it so that it didn't? If he could, he probably wouldn't have had to teleport beneath Cell and fire it upwards. So maybe it depends on the attack. I mean, Shin Kikoho must be immensely powerful, but even if you aim it at the Earth, it won't destroy it.

its very difficult to say, there are quite a few scenes where the attack of even putting enough ki into your blast is enough to send everyone into a panic, regardless of where you are aiming at such as Goku freaking out when Cell did that for his Kamehameha during the middle of their fight. As for the topic, the people who take issues with Cell's statement and such by contradicting it with actions from Kid Buu. Instead of saying Cell was lying or bluffing to gain the advantage, it would probably be more accurate to say he over estimated/misjudged his own abilities. These characters aren't infallible, Cell has misjudge his own capability before such as when he estimated his full power would be enough to crush Gohan easily, only to find out he was horribly off the mark.

I'm just sick of people farting out a couple formulas only so they can go MY MADE-UP NUMBERS ARE SUPER ACCURATE, like the stupid fucks in Ozaru's link going "FORCE = MASS TIMES SPEED" so they can claims BLARG HE HITS AT SPEED OF LIGHT SEE IT'S SCIENCE.

No. Fuck you. Either it's all stupid-ass comic book fun times, or you take a big physics dildo-slap to the side of the head for your insolence.

I gotta agree with you on this one, I hate it when people do things like that when its probably obvious that not even the author was thinking about that when creating certain scenes. A good example was this scan below I debated with a hardcore (my unfortunate experience) fan some years back.
http://media.tested.com/uploads/1/10346 ... _super.jpg

He said assuming Namek was the same as Earth Goku crossed 7,926.28 miles in 1 second with a power level of 3 million, 50 times that as a SSJ and Goku can travel at 396,314 mps, over twice the speed of light baby. I said in the actual book its close by and very close in the original version. He said that was a mistranslation and the book of the book got it right. So I decided to play his game and reminded him that he said a power level of 3 milllion = 7,926.28 mps right? So a power level of 1 milllion would be 2,642.093, Piccolo after merging with Nail was over 1 million, yet it took minutes for him to arrive to the location freeza and co. were fighting and talking at.

After this point it got real ugly for since I was talking to a hardcore DBZ fan apparently, so to make a long story short I pointed out all the flaws and inconsistencies of the formulas and arguments he was using that were very childish and ignorant to the series he claims he has more knowledge than me about til he angry and left the topic to never respond again. I don't understand why some fans of Dragon Ball go overboard with this stuff and take it more seriously than Toriyama ever did.

[Hitiro]

When Goku charges up a massive Kamehameha and aims it down at Cell (and the Earth), everyone's sure it would destroy the planet. Could Goku have controlled it so that it didn't? If he could, he probably wouldn't have had to teleport beneath Cell and fire it upwards. So maybe it depends on the attack. I mean, Shin Kikoho must be immensely powerful, but even if you aim it at the Earth, it won't destroy it.

its very difficult to say, there are quite a few scenes where the attack of even putting enough ki into your blast is enough to send everyone into a panic, regardless of where you are aiming at such as Goku freaking out when Cell did that for his Kamehameha during the middle of their fight. As for the topic, the people who take issues with Cell's statement and such by contradicting it with actions from Kid Buu. Instead of saying Cell was lying or bluffing to gain the advantage, it would probably be more accurate to say he over estimated/misjudged his own abilities. These characters aren't infallible, Cell has misjudge his own capability before such as when he estimated his full power would be enough to crush Gohan easily, only to find out he was horribly off the mark.

Well characters who have never done any attempts at certain feats before seem pretty confident about the action they're about to do. If you recall Kame Sennin seemed pretty confident he could destroy the moon. Piccolo was also confident in this feat as well as others he's done, like levelling a city. Characters who have tried feats they have never done before have not failed to do so throughout the story. Of course it may be an overestimation but we can't say it flat out is. Also with Cell misjudging his capability against other fighters its the same reason why all characters are off the mark with their opponents. An opponent might be fighting at 50% of their power and you can gauge that they still have power in reserve but to you you don't know they're at 50% you just see it as "They haven't used their full power yet." Goku also misjudges Frieza's power in the Namek saga. He believes there's no way Frieza could beat him with only 50% of his power so Goku launches a Kaioken x20 Kamehameha in hopes it will settle the battle. Of course what Frieza said was true and Goku realised this after Frieza was pushed to using 50% of his power.

[Fox666]

I gotta agree with you on this one, I hate it when people do things like that when its probably obvious that not even the author was thinking about that when creating certain scenes. A good example was this scan below I debated with a hardcore (my unfortunate experience) fan some years back.
http://media.tested.com/uploads/1/10346 ... _super.jpg

Goku wasn't at the other side of the planet. Freeza's spaceship was very close to the battlefield.

Here you can see the spaceship from where Porunga was summoned:



And near the end of the battle Porunga was still visible:

[Mjb1985]

I for one enjoy the crazy formulas some people bring to the table. I think they are pretty cool. I remember that someone worked out that if Vegeta at 18,000 was capable of destroying Earth , then it would require SPC to be at like 50 billion or so to make solar system busting a possibility based on some crazy mathematic thing.

I never had a problem looking at them , but I've also never encountered someone who said that their numbers were pure factual and everything else was wrong. I thought it is just generally a cool side note but you know how tempers flare over such a dynamic life altering event in life such as Dragonball. Lol. Seriously this stuff gets debated hardcore worse than religion. But it is fun!

[Bussani]

its very difficult to say, there are quite a few scenes where the attack of even putting enough ki into your blast is enough to send everyone into a panic, regardless of where you are aiming at

That's true. Cell wasn't exactly pointing his Kamehameha straight down, yet Goku still worried it would destroy the Earth and lead Cell to aim it upwards to avoid that.

I for one enjoy the crazy formulas some people bring to the table. I think they are pretty cool. I remember that someone worked out that if Vegeta at 18,000 was capable of destroying Earth , then it would require SPC to be at like 50 billion or so to make solar system busting a possibility based on some crazy mathematic thing.

I never had a problem looking at them , but I've also never encountered someone who said that their numbers were pure factual and everything else was wrong. I thought it is just generally a cool side note but you know how tempers flare over such a dynamic life altering event in life such as Dragonball. Lol. Seriously this stuff gets debated hardcore worse than religion. But it is fun!

Yeah, like I said, that's how it is for me as well. I'm not usually the initiator, but if I see other people throwing math out, I can't help joining in. I know it can't fit the story, and I don't want to try to make it fit the story. Most of the time I'm trying to show just how badly it can't fit the story, at least without approaching it from a new angle.

[Toriyama-sama]

This forum needs a LaTeX plugin

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'm just sick of people farting out a couple formulas only so they can go MY MADE-UP NUMBERS ARE SUPER ACCURATE, like the stupid fucks in Ozaru's link going "FORCE = MASS TIMES SPEED" so they can claims BLARG HE HITS AT SPEED OF LIGHT SEE IT'S SCIENCE.

No. Fuck you. Either it's all stupid-ass comic book fun times, or you take a big physics dildo-slap to the side of the head for your insolence.

I only posted the link for the manga pages. I do agree that most of the people on said forum do not know exactly what they are talking about. The big indication of FTL speeds for me is the scene where Piccolo destroys the moon. His attack was able to hit the moon and the light got back to Earth all within a few seconds and the Mankankosappo is faster than that beam. Its even established that Ki attacks get faster in the Frieza saga in the scene where Frieza kills Dende. Plus, no matter how unlikely, if Cell was established to be a Solar System buster we would have to believe that Ki travels faster than light to blow it up in 1 go. Hell if you consider Cooler's revenge a canon film, you would have to believe Ki is FTL since Goku's Kamehameha hit the sun in less than 30 seconds. It takes 8 minutes for light to reach the sun.

[TheMightyOzaru]

The attack Piccolo used to blow up the moon was near light speed

Again, that depends on how long it took for the beam to reach the Moon (which we can't tell from still panels) and also on whether the distance between Earth and the Moon in Dragon Ball is the same as it is in real life.

I know you may not agree with alternate interpretations like this, but you can't disprove them, either. It all turns into a matter of opinion, which is why none of it is irrefutable one way or the other.

Well I guess we could use the anime for my example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIw9dWPl7zY
It takes about 8 seconds for the beam to hit and for the light to get back to the Earth. Still a good deal slower than light but its established that Ki gets faster in the Freeza saga.

[Hitiro]

The attack Piccolo used to blow up the moon was near light speed

Again, that depends on how long it took for the beam to reach the Moon (which we can't tell from still panels) and also on whether the distance between Earth and the Moon in Dragon Ball is the same as it is in real life.

I know you may not agree with alternate interpretations like this, but you can't disprove them, either. It all turns into a matter of opinion, which is why none of it is irrefutable one way or the other.

Well I guess we could use the anime for my example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIw9dWPl7zY
It takes about 8 seconds for the beam to hit and for the light to get back to the Earth. Still a good deal slower than light but its established that Ki gets faster in the Freeza saga.

The anime shouldn't really be trusted in instances of this. As I brought up earlier, and if you check my posts on the page previous, you'll see that if it took 5 mins to hit the moon then Piccolo's move would be travelling at around mach 3,771. The speed of light is mach 881,000. That is still a hell of a lot slower than the speed of light. Its entirely possible it took 5 mins to reach there and the view of the destruction would have come back in 1.2 seconds.

[TheMightyOzaru]

The anime shouldn't really be trusted in instances of this. As I brought up earlier, and if you check my posts on the page previous, you'll see that if it took 5 mins to hit the moon then Piccolo's move would be travelling at around mach 3,771. The speed of light is mach 881,000. That is still a hell of a lot slower than the speed of light.

Why should the anime not be trustworthy? Some people consider it canon and quite frankly I dont see any reason for Piccolo's attack to take 5 minutes. Especially when Gohan would attack him within those 5 minutes. 8 seconds seems fine to me. Hell the manga looks faster:

EDIT: Woah! Piccolo has 4 fingers in both scans o.0?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

EDIT: Woah! Piccolo has 4 fingers in both scans o.0?

...Namekians only have 3 fingers and a thumb in the manga (excluding a Tori-joke and any oversights).

[TheMightyOzaru]

EDIT: Woah! Piccolo has 4 fingers in both scans o.0?

...Namekians only have 3 fingers and a thumb in the manga (excluding a Tori-joke and any oversights).

You know what I mean.