The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Rocketman]

Ultimate/Mystic is literally every scrap of hidden power Gohan has. SS4 can never, ever match that.

[dbzfan7]

Ultimate/Mystic is literally every scrap of hidden power Gohan has. SS4 can never, ever match that.

Technically SSJ4 has the same description, except the Elder Kaioshin abilities takes one's full potential beyond what it is capable of.

[Mjb1985]

Tambourine vs Muten Roshi.

[MisguidedGhost]

Tambourine vs Muten Roshi.

I'm assuming you mean Muten Roshi at his peak. Since he was able to fight pretty evenly with Tenshinhan, who was equal to a Goku that killed Tambourine, I think Roshi would win, though Tambourine wouldn't be a pushover. Still, with Roshi's experience and techniques, I think he'd prevail.

[Mjb1985]

You don't think Goku got a zenkai from the Tambourine beat down?

[Fox666]

Ultimate/Mystic is literally every scrap of hidden power Gohan has. SS4 can never, ever match that.

Super Saiyan 3 was also said to draw out all of the hidden powers of a Saiyan, but that was ret-conned for Super Saiyan 4 later. So what was said about Gohan power-up doesn't stand anymore either.

[MisguidedGhost]

You don't think Goku got a zenkai from the Tambourine beat down?

If he did, it was pretty minimal. Zenkais as a story concept hadn't even been invented yet. Even if Roshi was at a bit of a disadvantage in raw power, I think his fighting prowess would compensate.

[Mjb1985]

I just get kind of lost by these things.

Goku is the strongest human Piccolo has ever met.

Roshi at the 22nd Budokai isn't all that far off from Goku.

Roshi seems to imply he was stronger when he was younger and that his master even superior to that.

So if


Mutatio > Young Roshi > Roshi ~ Goku 22nd


Then Piccolo's comment would have to be false.

Unless one thinks Piccolo's power has regressed to a point where he can't tell?

[Rocketman]

Ultimate/Mystic is literally every scrap of hidden power Gohan has. SS4 can never, ever match that.

Technically SSJ4 has the same description, except the Elder Kaioshin abilities takes one's full potential beyond what it is capable of.

SS4 uses energy to maintain itself, Mystic doesn't.

[dbzfan7]

Ultimate/Mystic is literally every scrap of hidden power Gohan has. SS4 can never, ever match that.

Technically SSJ4 has the same description, except the Elder Kaioshin abilities takes one's full potential beyond what it is capable of.

SS4 uses energy to maintain itself, Mystic doesn't.

Never said anything against that. Only mentioning SSJ4 does basically brings out potential to the utmost limit, while the ritual takes it way beyond.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Ultimate/Mystic is literally every scrap of hidden power Gohan has. SS4 can never, ever match that.

Super Saiyan 3 was also said to draw out all of the hidden powers of a Saiyan, but that was ret-conned for Super Saiyan 4 later. So what was said about Gohan power-up doesn't stand anymore either.

Why should the Ultimate be retconned as well?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Ultimate/Mystic is literally every scrap of hidden power Gohan has.

Until the next power-up, that is. Since it's a trend in DB that characters constantly keep "breaking past their limits", even before Gokuu and co. got their energy-reliant transformations.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Ultimate/Mystic is literally every scrap of hidden power Gohan has.

Until the next power-up, that is. Since it's a trend in DB that characters constantly keep "breaking past their limits", even before Gokuu and co. got their energy-reliant transformations.

Not really. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first time that the whole limit concept was referred was by Kuririn in Namek arc, when Saichouro was about to draw Kuririn's dormant power. Every other mention about it was either when someone had become stronger than before ("I have surpassed my limits") or when they where wrong (Kuririn thought that he couldn't get any stronger in Namek arc, for example). But this doesn't seem the case in Ultimate Gohan's case. Rou Kaioshin was very sure about the whole limit thing, and Gohan didn't just got stronger than before. He became stronger than a hypothetical trained, raged Super Saiyan 3 Gohan, in base.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Now I know the Saiyan power-up from healing was no longer relevant by the Boo arc. When considering that, I always thought the fact that Boo bothered to note how Gohan's power didn't increase once he was healed was just further emphasis on Gohan's power literally being at its utmost peak.

Roshi should be able to take Tambourine, but it'd be a tough fight.

[Mjb1985]

Yea one could take that comment to suggest that Saiyans continued to get zenkais imo ... Or it was just a reminder from AT who may have thought the readers would think of a Base Saiyan getting a zenkai in that situation. Hard to tell.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Ultimate/Mystic is literally every scrap of hidden power Gohan has.

Until the next power-up, that is. Since it's a trend in DB that characters constantly keep "breaking past their limits", even before Gokuu and co. got their energy-reliant transformations.

Not really. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first time that the whole limit concept was referred was by Kuririn in Namek arc, when Saichouro was about to draw Kuririn's dormant power. Every other mention about it was either when someone had become stronger than before ("I have surpassed my limits") or when they where wrong (Kuririn thought that he couldn't get any stronger in Namek arc, for example). But this doesn't seem the case in Ultimate Gohan's case. Rou Kaioshin was very sure about the whole limit thing, and Gohan didn't just got stronger than before. He became stronger than a hypothetical trained, raged Super Saiyan 3 Gohan, in base.

I can't be bothered to dig up all the quotes from throughout the series, but yeah...you're wrong. Well, not wrong, but I believe that the majority interpretations of the manga seem to swing heavily in my favour. That's why Gokuu wasn't initially impressed by the old Kaioushin's ability because he'd heard it all before, and the only real reason Gohan became so strong was because of his natural dormant power, not solely because of the old Kaioushin's ability.

And, arguably, one of, if not the only reason that people think Gohan's Ultimate power-up is the be-all and end-all of all the power he can gain is because he got it at the end of the series, no-one counts GT as part of manga canon, and we never saw any of the characters need to get a future power-up to justify an increase in strength to combat future threats.

Just Saiyan.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I searched the Strength Checker, so unless he I missed something, I'm correct about the whole limit thing. And Goku wasn't unimpressed by Rou Kaioshin's ability because he draws ones dormant power beyond its limits, he was unimpressed because he could draw ones dormant power, without the limits thing. He had already seen the Super Scared Water & Saichouro's ability, but neither of them made any mention about any limits, IIRC.

[Mjb1985]

FYI for all you GT fans, this guy Kamikaze Pyro started a nice thread on the forum Shinden Reborn where he is making a Strength Checker for GT. I know many of you aren't interested in GT like I am, but there are some who are , who would possibly be interested in it.

[dbzfan7]

Videl vs Chi Chi

If only the fight actually happened. I would think Toriyama would have fun with that idea.

[Kaboom]

Videl passed "Ki Control 101" with flying colors (HA.), but she almost assuredly doesn't have the raw power or skill to match Chi-Chi.