Goten's rage

the_abberration · Post by **the_abberration** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:38 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:::Reads through Thread::

I think now that anything involving young Goten and Trunks is automatically doomed to be humorous...

As for Goten and Trunks' reasons being despair b/c of their families... I don't think so.
With Goten, we see that Chi-Chi is nowhere near as strict with him as she was with Goten, and, as has been already pointed out, she's even trained with him (she misses Goku, huh?). And Gohan's certainly no evil older brother or anything, either.

And with Trunks... his family may be weird (esp. the grandparents), but he by no means dislikes or is depressed because of any of 'em. In fact, it's shown ishloads of times during the Buu arc that Trunks immensly looks up to and admires his dad, despite Vegeta's short temper, etc.

Yay, first to make those points.

Sorry to disappoint. I was making a joke with the reasoning for Goten and Trunk's SSJ trigger. I already posted my "genetics" theory on this in another topic, so I didn't want to sound redundant by explaining it here.

I thought this would happen so I posted my EDIT. You already read it so I'll sum it up: I think their abilities on turning SSJ is more storyline driven than trying to follow the standard formula of SSJ transformations.

Sorry for the confusion. Now criticise away!!

Hyper Sora · Post by **Hyper Sora** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:23 pm

So then more anger and despair lead to SSJ2 right?

t-bone135 · Post by **t-bone135** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:43 pm

Not necessarily. All it really takes to achive SSJ 2 is more training. In Gohan's case, more anger and despair tapped into his potential and allowed him to reach SSJ 2 faster then the rest.

Hyper Sora · Post by **Hyper Sora** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:44 pm

Oh ok. Thanks

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:24 pm

the_abberration wrote: Sorry to disappoint. I was making a joke with the reasoning for Goten and Trunk's SSJ trigger.

Actually, I figured that it was a joke. Sorry if I sounded condescending. I went to edit my post to say so, but after I hit "edit" I forgot just what it was I wanted to edit...

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:40 pm

I am sorry, but I STRONGLY disagree with the "inherited genes" notion that has plagued the internet and dragonball fans as a plausible explanation for years. Regardless of the fact that this is a fictional world, this is a very inconsistant idea.

Here is the explanation that is in agreement with the entire series and everything we see along the way.

For example: (This is the only example using power levels, because they actually apply)

Bardock was up to a power level of 10,000. Son Goku was born with a power level of 2. No passed strength or gene inheritance. Goku was passed the POTENTIAL to someday become as strong as his father, but he was not BORN like that.

Here is the meat and potatoes of this argument though:

Saiyans fight stronger opponents to become stronger themselves. Also on thier homeworld, the gravity is ten times that of earth. Goku fought Yamcha, Roshi, Krillin, Red Ribbon Army creations, Mercenary Tao, and finally Piccolo Daimao during his youth. All enemies with battle powers below 1,000. Sure he gained great strength and was one of the strongest on earth, but in the galaxy he was still a weakling.

Son Gohan had incredible power boost from rage. We assume this is from his mixed blood and the fact that chi chi seems to gain greater power from her rage. Gohan fought against Piccolo in training. A Piccolo stronger than the previous one his father had faced as a teenager!

Gohan fought a stronger opponent and in a year's time was already stronger at the age of 5 than his father was at the age of 15.

A side note, Goku fought with King Kai and trained there in the afterlife and thats when he power really began to grow as well.

Gohan helped in the fight against Vegeta, even taking a weakened Prince in a one on one fight briefly. Gohan helped against the likes of Recoome and even tackled Freeza himself. Far greater opponents than his father had the chance to fight at that age.

So looking at this pattern, look at Goten and Trunks. Trunks was in that gravity room playing while Vegeta trained. Goten play fought with Trunks and fought with Gohan as well.

But Gohan and Vegeta were already Super Saiyans. Battle powers far beyond anything else. Also consider this fact:

Al the previous Super Saiyans trained alone. Had Goku and Vegeta fought each other repeatedly and gained strength off fighting each other they would have advanced even faster. Remember when Goku and Gohan trained in the Hperbolic Time Chamber? Gohan fought against a Super Saiyan [Goku] to become a Super Saiyan himself. The they both made gains far beynd Trunks [Future] and Vegeta, who insisted on training alone even though they were in the chamber together. They missed the boat on making faster gains in a shorter time.

Side note - That explains why Goku and Gohan only went in the Chamber once and Vegeta and Trunks went in twice.

Kid Goten and Kid Trunks fought each othr all the time "for fun". They fought and trained with people who wre already Super Saiyans. They made faster gains in power because of this.

NOT because they were just born able to be Super Saiyans. It is never stated in the manga or anime that they were born that way. All the facts I shared are from the Manga and Anime. I think this explanation makes perfect sense.

As far as Rage, they are kids. They either threw a temper tantrum and it happened becaus thier power was "already beyond normal saiyan limitations", or like Son Gohan they had the hidden potential rage and when they used it, because of already high power, became Super saiyans from it.

tenkaichigoten · Post by **tenkaichigoten** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:33 pm

Since this topic is Goten related I would like to point out a reason why Goten as a character is so chilled. Goten is chilled because at the time of con what ever its called Goku was relaxed.

ItsAllGood · Post by **ItsAllGood** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:35 am

I agree, Akira.

It is mentioned in another thread that to become a SSJ due to the natural power being over the threshold needed would be easier than trying to "unnaturally" force the transformation. Since training with stronger opponents than the previous generations ever trained with gained the boys power quickly, it would be a mere detail to transform, given the correct circumstances.

This also explains why Goten and Trunks were able to become SSJ with little or no effort, as their power level was potentially well over the threshold needed.

Indeed, we only ever see Goten become a SSJ due to a small kick from Chi Chi. It is interesting to note that Goten appeared scared of his mother (in the anime) when they were training, up until his transformation of course. If that is what caused the transformation,(fear/ anger of a simple attack), then a far cry it is from Vegeta's transformation, who almost killed himself attempting it.

Cyberman · Post by **Cyberman** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:15 pm

Well, having SSJ fathers may have not made them SSJ at birth, but it still helped them become stronger I think. I think Trunks was concieved before Vegeta went into space and became SSJ, and then Vegeta trained Trunks pretty much every day. Which is possibly why Trunks is a little stronger than Goten- Goten only trained with his mom, while Trunks trained with Vegeta, a very strong SSJ, so he got SSJ the natural way and the hard way, which I believe gave him more power.

But I'm no Akira Toriyama, so don't completely believe me!

Li'l Lemmy · Post by **Li'l Lemmy** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:36 pm

I used to be a big proponent for the ol' "Super Saiyan DNA" argument when it came to Goten and Trunks, but I shrugged off that explanation a while ago after evaluating the overall impression it gave me. I'll always believe that having strong fathers certainly couldn't have hurt in that regard, but the idea that it has something to do with DNA almost cheapens the whole idea of Super Saiyan to some degree. It's just too convenient an explanation for me, and as a Goten fan I'd like to think that Goten earned that power in his own way rather than it having been "given" to him through birth.

While I may not completely agree with the idea of Goten and Trunks growing strong enough to reach the Super Saiyan level simply by fighting amongst themselves . . . after all, I can't imagine that it was ever as dire or intense the way the Goku vs. Vegeta battles were . . . I'm willing to ascribe to Akira's theory simply because it's the best we've got to go on, and that it's rooted fundamentally in fact wherever possible.

tenkaichigoten · Post by **tenkaichigoten** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:55 pm

Li'l Lemmy wrote:I used to be a big proponent for the ol' "Super Saiyan DNA" argument when it came to Goten and Trunks, but I shrugged off that explanation a while ago after evaluating the overall impression it gave me. I'll always believe that having strong fathers certainly couldn't have hurt in that regard, but the idea that it has something to do with DNA almost cheapens the whole idea of Super Saiyan to some degree. It's just too convenient an explanation for me, and as a Goten fan I'd like to think that Goten earned that power in his own way rather than it having been "given" to him through birth.

While I may not completely agree with the idea of Goten and Trunks growing strong enough to reach the Super Saiyan level simply by fighting amongst themselves . . . after all, I can't imagine that it was ever as dire or intense the way the Goku vs. Vegeta battles were . . . I'm willing to ascribe to Akira's theory simply because it's the best we've got to go on, and that it's rooted fundamentally in fact wherever possible.

Wow you're a Goten fan too?

Li'l Lemmy · Post by **Li'l Lemmy** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:21 pm

tenkaichigoten wrote:Wow you're a Goten fan too?

Sure am. Rather than having been able to watch the sagas in the proper order, I was introduced to DBZ through the events of the Buu saga. This means that unlike the average, well-balanced DBZ connoisseur, I got hooked on the show through superficial "wow, look at that!" things like Super Saiyan 3, Buu's absorption technique and the ultimate destruction of earth, and then went back to watch the rest of DBZ and fill in the blanks.

The antics of the chibi Saiyans Trunks and Goten were among those things I enjoyed, and the two grew to be my favorite characters. Since then I've been working my way back through the Babidi and Great Saiyaman sagas to find out what Goten stuff I've missed . . .

But now I've thrown things terribly off-topic, and consequently beg the gods forgiviness as I shut up about myself and steer this thread back to business. Happy to meet another Goten fan, though!

tenkaichigoten · Post by **tenkaichigoten** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:35 pm

Goten has the potential to be a great fighter but he was concieved at a time where Goku was too chilled so its not his fault.I wish he officially went SSJ2

Footman · Post by **Footman** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:23 am

The reason Goten and Trunks went SSJ early: Because Toriyama friggin' said so.

Kanzenshuu

Goten's rage

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