Cell a Solar System Buster ?

[Bando]

A panel shows the Moon very close to Earth: pff, just artistic license
A panel shows Piccolo destroying the Moon "instantly": THEY'RE FASTER THAN LIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT

Bingo.

[Fox666]

A panel shows the Moon very close to Earth: pff, just artistic license

No, it's a comic scene that doesn't serve the continuity of the rest of the series. The Moon is a tiny object closer to the Earth as much as humans can breath in outer space.

A panel shows Piccolo destroying the Moon "instantly": THEY'RE FASTER THAN LIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT

Maybe it is, maybe Toriyama didn't realized the implications of what he was doing.

[Ketchup_Revenge]

The whole Cell Solar System thing, it wouldn't surprise me. If Freeza's easily capable of destroying a planet with a flick of his finger, than Cell (being multitudes stronger) destroying an entire solar system isn't that far fetched. It of course would depend on what kind of blast he used to destroy the solar system. Could be just a massive explosion (like Majin Vegeta used against Fat Boo when he committed suicide.)

[smiley]

I propose that it's possible to calculate Dragonball characters' speed via battle powers. Although it's true that a greater battle power doesn't necessarily imply greater speed, I do think it is the case an increase in battle power of a character on the assumption that nothing else changes will result in speed increasing. Battle power is a measure of ki, and an increase ki should mean an increase in speed, unless, again, something else changes, like their body weight (this seems pretty self-evident, but I also think it's directly stated somewhere, but I'm not sure where).

Now, I'm not sure - if we assume what I wrote above, that one, battle power measures ki, and two, an increase in ki quantity means an increase in speed, does it follow that, for example, increasing one's battle power two times will increase speed two times?

[smiley]

A screenshot from a space simulator I modified to move the Moon to 25,000 miles from Earth.
-snip-

Okay, so that would make Piccolo's blast 1/10th of the speed of light, assuming it took 1 second to reach the Moon.

But some might object that 1 second is an assumption. Fine, let's make it 10 seconds. He sure as hell wasn't standing there with his hand in the same position as it had been when he fired off his blast for more than that.

So it was 1/100th of the speed of light.

But, then, consider this: Kaioken is stated to increase speed linearly, even if one ignores the idea that power levels and speed are proportional to one another. So Kaioken x3 Goku is at least 1/30th the speed of light. Base Goku on Namek is faster than that. Kaioken x10 Goku on Namek is ten times faster than that, or 1/3rd of the speed of light. Piccolo, Vegeta and others are faster than that when they get their final Namek saga power ups. Base Goku post-zenkai is even faster than that. So Super Saiyan Goku, being faster than his Kaioken x20 self, is faster than light.

The moon distance thing is also inconsistent. There are panels where it seems that it's the same distance as in the real world.

[Master Turbo]

I propose that it's possible to calculate Dragonball characters' speed via battle powers. Although it's true that a greater battle power doesn't necessarily imply greater speed, I do think it is the case an increase in battle power of a character on the assumption that nothing else changes will result in speed increasing. Battle power is a measure of ki, and an increase ki should mean an increase in speed, unless, again, something else changes, like their body weight (this seems pretty self-evident, but I also think it's directly stated somewhere, but I'm not sure where).

Now, I'm not sure - if we assume what I wrote above, that one, battle power measures ki, and two, an increase in ki quantity means an increase in speed, does it follow that, for example, increasing one's battle power two times will increase speed two times?

I tried that before and it didn't work. For example take Tao Pai Pai stated speed for throwing throwing that stone pillar. Its around mach 3.7551. Using the BPs from the Daizenshuu Tao is significantly weaker than 22nd Budokai Goku at 180. Assuming Goku is about 45x that with a power level over 8,000 during his fight against Nappa and Vegeta his speed should be over mach 168, however is speed is actually barely mach 29 assuming he traveled the entire length os Snakeway and didn't cut it in half or less by flying in a straight line. Goku's BP, strength, or whatever you want to call it went up 45x, however his speed barely went up 7.8x that. The Super Exciting Guide also shows Goku's stats improvement going up at different rates and not equally linear together.

[smiley]

Tao did not state his speed, so maybe you mean if you calculate the speed of the pillar?

It's actually very easy to reconcile this, 1 million kilometers obviously would take a freater energy to complete than whatever distance Tao threw his pillar. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that a character who ran over the snake road wouldn't be capable of constantly keeping the speed they're capable of on short distances the entire time.

The Super Exciting Guide also shows Goku's stats improvement going up at different rates and not equally linear together.

That doesn't disprove the idea. Like I said, I propose it's only linear assuming nothing else changes. If power level increases 5 times, speed increases five times (on my theory). However, this doesn't mean Goku can't increase his speed more than 5 times by improving his body independently of battle power increase or lower it by becoming heavier or something.

[Bussani]

That's true. Cell wasn't exactly pointing his Kamehameha straight down, yet Goku still worried it would destroy the Earth and lead Cell to aim it upwards to avoid that.

But like you said Cell wasn't aiming at the ground, he was aiming specifically at Goku, but the act of just putting enough ki into his Kamehameha made everyone flipped out.

It feels like you're correcting me, but I was agreeing with you.

I propose that it's possible to calculate Dragonball characters' speed via battle powers. Although it's true that a greater battle power doesn't necessarily imply greater speed, I do think it is the case an increase in battle power of a character on the assumption that nothing else changes will result in speed increasing. Battle power is a measure of ki, and an increase ki should mean an increase in speed, unless, again, something else changes, like their body weight (this seems pretty self-evident, but I also think it's directly stated somewhere, but I'm not sure where).

Now, I'm not sure - if we assume what I wrote above, that one, battle power measures ki, and two, an increase in ki quantity means an increase in speed, does it follow that, for example, increasing one's battle power two times will increase speed two times?

Vegeta tells us that when a person's battle power increases, their speed increases. He doesn't tell us that they increase linearly, however. I don't remember the original dialogue ever telling us that Kaio-ken doubled or tripled speed, either--just that it could potentially increase, strength, speed, etc. many times over.

If you take all the speed feats in the manga, I think you'll find it hard to say that it increased linearly. Unless you go with the "they can move faster than light, but only for a few centimeters" idea.

It seems my previous posts went somewhat unnoticed

Since Bulma is able to phone home from Namek, light has to travel way faster in Dragon Ball than it does in reality, maybe even at infinite speed. If so, no one is faster than light

Maybe it was a tachyon phone?

[smiley]

Vegeta tells us that when a person's battle power increases, their speed increases. He doesn't tell us that they increase linearly, however.
I don't remember the original dialogue ever telling us that Kaio-ken doubled or tripled speed, either--just that it could potentially increase, strength, speed, etc. many times over.

If speed is always increased when BP increases (even if the gain is infinitesimal), isn't it necessarily the case that speed will increase at least as much as battle power does?

As for Kaioken, Daizenshuu 2 describes it that way.

Kaio-ken x2
Goku
A technique whereby controlling all of the ki throughout the body, one can momentarily amplify it. However, the toll on the body is also large.

Vol. 20 / Chp. 229Goku acquired it through his training under Kaio. His power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force, all become twice the usual.

I'd find it somewhat odd that Kaioken increases speed linearly, but not battle power.

This also just came up in my mind. Consider, a hypothetical Kaioken times X user will always be X times faster than his normal self by virtue of Kaioken speed increase being linear. But if that same character trained through natural means and increased their battle power by even an infinitesimal amount more than their Kaioken times X allowed them, they will always be faster than their Kaioken times X self because an increase in BP is stated to necessarily also increase speed. Therefore, that character will always necessarily be faster than their Kaioken times X self, and therefore X faster than their pre-training self. So, if you get where I'm going with this, doesn't it necessarily follow that BP increases speed linearly?

If you take all the speed feats in the manga, I think you'll find it hard to say that it increased linearly. Unless you go with the "they can move faster than light, but only for a few centimeters" idea.

I'd say maybe a few kilometers, but I would have to do more precise calculations to give a concrete number.

[smiley]

I'd like to ask something because I think it's relevant to the whole speed question. Does the strength of a ki/energy blast depend upon its speed? When it comes to physical attacks, yes, I think it's obvious that speed is very important when determining an attack's strength. But about ki?

[Fox666]

I think so, since even weak characters have been able to dodge Ki attacks, so after some point they would be useless.

[smiley]

Can you post the interview where he says the moon distance is the same as in the real world?

EDIT: With respect to the question of whether battle power and speed are proportional to one another, consider also this.

Kaio-Ken
First Appearance: Chapter 226
Category: ki manipulation
People: Son Goku
Special Characteristics: A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one’s body, multiplying all that person’s abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one’s abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-Ken might destroy one’s own body. When the user’s battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-Ken above those limits. The Kaio-Ken’s designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it. (Daizenshuu 2, p.212/ Daizenshuu 4, p.113)

Consider the bolded part. It establishes that the multiplication of speed, strength and so forth that results from the usage of Kaio-ken happens as a consequence of ki being amplified. And, as we learn from Daizenshuu 2, the number these attributes get multiplied with corresponds to the level of Kaio-ken. But, as this entry suggests, this isn't just a peculiar characteristic of Kaio-ken, it's something that naturally occurs as a consequence of one's ki, and therefore battle power, being amplified.

[Bando]

We already know that, it's just that we doubt Toriyama scaled it linearly since there's no FTL showings or statements.

Wouldn't be the first time he ignored/forgot his own rules.

[Bussani]

If speed is always increased when BP increases (even if the gain is infinitesimal), isn't it necessarily the case that speed will increase at least as much as battle power does?

No. Why would it be?

As for Kaioken, Daizenshuu 2 describes it that way.

Kaio-ken x2
Goku
A technique whereby controlling all of the ki throughout the body, one can momentarily amplify it. However, the toll on the body is also large.

Vol. 20 / Chp. 229Goku acquired it through his training under Kaio. His power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force, all become twice the usual.

Fair enough. But since that's the only time it's said to work that way and everything else contradicts it, it feels like we have to pick and choose which is right: every feat in the story, or this entry.

Of course, the true reason behind the speed feats not increasing linearly is that Toriyama didn't think it through that much. It seems like he just doesn't increase things as much as he should if he were trying to be linear, i.e. the characters can't lift anything close to a linear amount more weight than they used to and don't seem to be a linear amount faster.

I'd like to ask something because I think it's relevant to the whole speed question. Does the strength of a ki/energy blast depend upon its speed? When it comes to physical attacks, yes, I think it's obvious that speed is very important when determining an attack's strength. But about ki?

It seems like the more powerful a ki blast is, the faster it can be. It's possible for them to be slower, though, depending on the technique, e.g. Kuririn launching that very strong, but very slow blast towards Vegeta, Nappa, and the Saibaimen.

[smiley]

It's not only one entry; I'm pretty sure there are at least two or three places throughout the Daizenshuu that is mentioned, and I could find them if that would change anything for you.

So, what, precisely, contradicts this idea? Based on my experience of these discussions, you'll probably bring up something like the fact Goku and Vegeta were able to have a conversation before Buuhan found them or something. But that, too, is just one instance, and there are ways to reconcile it with the "FTL" view (see my response to the guy who brought up Tao's pillar feat and the snake way calculation).

I have no idea, though, what you mean by "every feat in the series" contradicting the idea.

[Rocketman]

The Earth's gravity can't hold something moving at lightspeed. If they were moving that fast, they would rocket out into space.

[smiley]

I would repeat what has been said several times in this thread already, about this being fiction where different laws of physics apply, but since I expect what the comeback would be, I'll address it immediately: I go by the principle of assuming every law is the same as in the real world... unless it is explicitly contradicted by the series. So, if I have good reasons to believe a character is faster than the speed of sound, and they don't generate sonic booms, which we would expect of an object moving above the sound speed, I assume that this particular thing is different in the series I'm looking at. From this, it doesn't follow that we can completely disregard all math and logic and science. We only do so with respect to those facts which are contradicted by the series.

So: this isn't a "lol, it's gag, so we can't apply logic to it" argument. It's "this is a different universe from our own where obviously different laws apply. Since it has many obvious similarities to our own, we won't immediately throw away everything we know about how things work, but where something is obviously different than in our own universe, we'll simply have to assume a different law applies there".

I would propose that nearly everyone operates under the framework I described above. Do you believe any fictional character at all can move at lightspeed? Can Superman not move at lightspeed because he doesn't exhibit what we would expect of a lightspeed object? Are Dragon ball characters slower than the speed of sound because they don't generate sonic booms?

[Rocketman]

If Earth's gravity is powerful enough to catch something moving at lightspeed, then:

1. You shouldn't be able to see it because light can't escape.
2. It's a black hole.

So if they're faster than light, every single depiction of the Earth in the series is wrong, including all scenes on the surface, because light can't bounce off the ground for anybody to see with.

[Hitiro]

The Earth's gravity can't hold something moving at lightspeed. If they were moving that fast, they would rocket out into space.

You're assuming they don't correct their position during flight to stop them from normally flying off the planet anyway. Your forgetting that these characters aren't planes. Gravity should have no effect on them when they are flying so they shouldn't be slingshot around the planet like a plane is when its flying, or even satellites. I'm not saying they are travelling that fast. I don't think they are either. But the physics behind what would normally happen if something was moving that fast should not apply to them anyway. At the end of the day its impossible for someone to hover above the ground without some sort of insane thrust. Yet the Z fighters have no problem doing that without any sort of extra influence.

If we take a plane it doesn't need to thrust up as it moves because the speed it travels at as well as all the other forces it takes advantage of help it to defy gravity. But Goku and the gang would need to have some sort of thrust travelling at any speed between a snails pace to supersonic speed because they can't take advantage of the forces a plane would to defy gravity. They lack any sort of wing-span to give them lift, they aren't aerodynamic in any regard and with that the only way for them to counter gravity is to apply an equal opposing force in the same direction as where the gravity is coming from. Of course if they continued to apply an equal opposing force and flew in one direction they would start to go off into space. So to prevent this they would have to make opposing force weaker than gravity to allow them to curve with the circumference of the Earth. Either every now and then or for extended periods of time depending on the speed they are travelling.

[Fox666]

Can you post the interview where he says the moon distance is the same as in the real world?

Ironically Toriyama is actually speaking of the scene which Goku goes to the Moon.