Cell a Solar System Buster ?

[Bussani]

So, what, precisely, contradicts this idea?

Actually, I stand corrected... If we assume Goku didn't run continuously at his top speed on his first trip along Serpent's Road, it's possible to say that his speed roughly increased linearly. Until the end of the Freeza arc, that is.

• With a battle power of 10, Goku ran 100 meters in 8.5 seconds. That's 11.76 meters per second.
• With a battle power of 334 (because he was wearing his weighted clothes), Goku ran 1,000,000 kilometers (the length of Serpent's Road) in around 207 days, which would make him around 55.91 meters per second quick. With a linear increase, we could say that his true top speed was 392.78 meters per second.
• After his training, his battle power has risen to 8,000, and he makes the return trip in only about 27 hours. That would make his speed 10,288 meters per second, but it may have been less than that, since he was skipping the loopy segments. Since he's around 24 times stronger, his speed, linearly, should be around 9,426 meters per second. You could just about say that fits.

After that it gets a bit iffier. By the time he returns to Earth from Namek, his battle power is at least 3,000,000. If it scaled linearly, this should give him a speed of at least 3,858,024.68 meters per second. That's so fast that he'd be able to make his 10,000 kilometer trip to Kame House and back in a matter of seconds, without teleporting. That doesn't seem to make sense considering Vegeta accused him of using super speed at first and only accepted it was teleportation when he heard the distance.

Based on my experience of these discussions, you'll probably bring up something like the fact Goku and Vegeta were able to have a conversation before Buuhan found them or something. But that, too, is just one instance, and there are ways to reconcile it with the "FTL" view (see my response to the guy who brought up Tao's pillar feat and the snake way calculation).

I don't follow you here. How does your response about Taopaipai's pillar explain why Buu wasn't able to appear next to them in a fraction of a second? I mean, even the Goku mentioned above, as a Super Saiyan, should be able to to circle the globe and return to where he started in .2 of a second if his speed increased linearly.

[mistershin]

We already know that, it's just that we doubt Toriyama scaled it linearly since there's no FTL showings or statements.

Wouldn't be the first time he ignored/forgot his own rules.

There are instances of FTL & light speed showings:
FTL Ki Sensing (King Kai senses Goku Ki in a FTL spaceship)
FTL Ki Sensing (Goku senses Namekian planet Ki for IT, Also Goku senses Bulma's Ki through several Billions human Ki.) (We all know average human has Ki of 5, this is actually a impressive feat when u think about it. I would liken it to searching every face on Earth until u see Bulma's.)

FTL Ki Blast (Super Spirit Bomb energy travels across the Universe, 100% solid FTL showing)
FTL Ki Blast (Piccolo destroying Moon)
Obviously Taiyoken = Light speed.
Obviously Android 19 & 20 lasers = light speed, they are 100% machine. SSJ Vegeta outright dodges one of those which would probably require relativistic speed.

Also Telepathy seems to ignore time and space in DB (practically instantaneous), Piccolo talking to Goten and Trunks in ROSAT. Piccolo, Guru, Kaio, Kami hold telepathic convos across space/galaxy.

[Fox666]

I am not sure about the lasers from the eye, I don't think they are faster (discounting the power of the individual) than Freeza's finger beam.

[Bussani]

Ki sensing always seems to work instantaneously. I'm not sure that's proof of faster than light ki blasts. I mean, if a ki blast could move as fast as ki can be sensed, you could theoretically shoot anyone from anywhere in no time at all, and no one would ever see it coming because by the time they sensed it, they'd be hit. Maybe it's just raw ki that's able to travel instantly, and forming it into a tangible blast slows it down?

As for the "lasers from the eyes", I'm not sure they're even lasers. My first instinct when I look at them is to call them particle beams.

[Hitiro]

I am not sure about the lasers from the eye, I don't think they are faster (discounting the power of the individual) than Freeza's finger beam.

I've always assumed Freeza's "death beam" was called that due to the illusion it was a beam. As in, it moved fast enough to look like a beam but was actually a blast. I feel beam is more of a buzzword implying how fast the attack is moving. Because usually the trail of a beam would remain at its source. In the manga and anime we clearly see this isn't the case with Freeza's death beams. They travel as any other blast would, with a tail following closely behind but not leaving a lasting trail.

[Fox666]

Personally I don't take the name is account. Besides isn't "death beam" from videogames? The Daizenshuu calls it "Ki attack from the fingertip" or something like that.

[mistershin]

Ki sensing always seems to work instantaneously. I'm not sure that's proof of faster than light ki blasts. I mean, if a ki blast could move as fast as ki can be sensed, you could theoretically shoot anyone from anywhere in no time at all, and no one would ever see it coming because by the time they sensed it, they'd be hit. Maybe it's just raw ki that's able to travel instantly, and forming it into a tangible blast slows it down?

As for the "lasers from the eyes", I'm not sure they're even lasers. My first instinct when I look at them is to call them particle beams.

Only strong Ki can be sensed easily from far away. E.g. Buu sensing Gohan in Kaioshin Realm. (Strangely Piccolo, Trunks and Goten never felt it, until he arrived on Earth)

I always thought they were lasers, because thats what fiction goes with most the time, when machines are involved.
Well Lasers are light speed and Particle Beams are near-light speed, so its very quick regardless.
http://i5.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/3 ... 950495.jpg
The page is flipped by the way *shakes head in disgust*

[Bussani]

Particle beams can be near light speed, but they don't have to be. They're more flexible than lasers in that regard. A lot of the time they're a lot slower in fiction because lightspeed attacks make for boring space battles.

[Hitiro]

Personally I don't take the name is account. Besides isn't "death beam" from videogames? The Daizenshuu calls it "Ki attack from the fingertip" or something like that.

Is that so? I always thought it had some sort of name along the lines of "Death beam." Oh well, lol.

Only strong Ki can be sensed easily from far away. E.g. Buu sensing Gohan in Kaioshin Realm. (Strangely Piccolo, Trunks and Goten never felt it, until he arrived on Earth)

Perhaps they aren't strong enough to sense something so far away? This has always been what I've considered. Goku had troubles with teleporting to Namek even though he was actively searching for the Namekians who are quite a strong race compared to the humans. And the other members of the group didn't try to help Goku find their location with their sensing abilities. Which would be understandable if strength does equate to their sensing ability(With the exception of godly beings)as, apart from Gohan, Goku outclassed everyone else in strength by this point so his sensing ability would be strongest. Also we have to take into consideration the boys and Piccolo were preoccupied with dealing with Super Boo, Super Boo was the first to get out of the RoSaT so his preoccupation was freed up. Allowing him to focus on other things going on around him. Also Super Boo said that he was formulating a plot to defeat Gohan because Gohan was the only one stronger than him. That would mean that while he was fighting Gotenks he wasn't using his full concentration on the fight because he had no worries about being defeated by Gotenks. Even if Gotenks was only a tad bit weaker than Super Boo.

[Bussani]

I don't know if I'd tie ki sensing ability directly to the strength of the user, but they definitely seem to improve their skill at it as time goes on. After all, in the Saiyan arc, Goku and Piccolo couldn't even find Raditz by sensing his ki, yet Buu arc Goku could, with a little difficulty, pick out even Bulma's tiny ki.

[Toriyama-sama]

Well, if one wants to assume for Dragon Ball the same causality principles modern Physics postulates, ki can't be sensed instantaneously. Of course, many of the issues adressed in this thread can be solved by making the speed of light be much greater than in the real world.

I still find "Toriyama writing a silly children's story" to be a much better explanation, though

[goku the krump dancer]

The whole Cell Solar System thing, it wouldn't surprise me. If Freeza's easily capable of destroying a planet with a flick of his finger, than Cell (being multitudes stronger) destroying an entire solar system isn't that far fetched. It of course would depend on what kind of blast he used to destroy the solar system. Could be just a massive explosion (like Majin Vegeta used against Fat Boo when he committed suicide.)

Thats exactly how I see it.

[hleV]

Okay, here's my take on this.

If Cell meant that he could pull off an attack with a radius as great as to destroy the whole Solar System, then, IMHO, that's an exaggeration. In all other cases the statement seems quite valid.

But then, we've seen how everyone is completely fine using ki attacks on Earth, so I assume the fighters know how to shoot the blasts with a highly reduced radius, to not destroy their battleground (and by battleground I mean the planet). Apparently we've never seen what blast radius the fighters are actually capable of producing late in the series. So who knows, perhaps Cell can actually destroy the Solar System like that?

[Hitiro]

Okay, here's my take on this.

If Cell meant that he could pull off an attack with a radius as great as to destroy the whole Solar System, then, IMHO, that's an exaggeration. In all other cases the statement seems quite valid.

But then, we've seen how everyone is completely fine using ki attacks on Earth, so I assume the fighters know how to shoot the blasts with a highly reduced radius, to not destroy their battleground (and by battleground I mean the planet). Apparently we've never seen what blast radius the fighters are actually capable of producing late in the series. So who knows, perhaps Cell can actually destroy the Solar System like that?

I agree, all the fighters we've come across have reduced the radius of their ki blast in order to prevent the planets destruction or perhaps for sport. Wasn't it said that Nappa destroyed 1/16th(I'm guess, I'm pretty sure I heard it was some fraction of the planet at least) of the earth with his finger explosion that he wasn't even trying with? If he can destroy a fraction of the planets surface without trying that much then potentially Cell could extend a ki blast to anywhere in the Solar System.

[Bussani]

Wasn't it said that Nappa destroyed 1/16th(I'm guess, I'm pretty sure I heard it was some fraction of the planet at least) of the earth with his finger explosion that he wasn't even trying with?

Not that I recall, but I could be mistaken. I think you may be thinking of a stray Kamehameha of Buu's, which Babidi said destroyed "a tenth of the Earth". I wonder if he meant a tenth of the Earth's surface or a tenth of the Earth's volume. I don't think Earth had a giant hole in it after that, so probably the former...? That said, he poses it sort of like a question, so maybe I shouldn't be taking it so literally to begin with.

[Hitiro]

Wasn't it said that Nappa destroyed 1/16th(I'm guess, I'm pretty sure I heard it was some fraction of the planet at least) of the earth with his finger explosion that he wasn't even trying with?

Not that I recall, but I could be mistaken. I think you may be thinking of a stray Kamehameha of Buu's, which Babidi said destroyed "a tenth of the Earth". I wonder if he meant a tenth of the Earth's surface or a tenth of the Earth's volume. I don't think Earth had a giant hole in it after that, so probably the former...? That said, he poses it sort of like a question, so maybe I shouldn't be taking it so literally to begin with.

Perhaps that is what I'm remembering. I thought I heard Nappa destroyed 1/16th on the planet somewhere. Guess, I must have just been remembering that blast from Majin Buu.

[Fox666]

Such a number is not specified in the manga, but he surely did a lot of damage to the planet:

[Hitiro]

Such a number is not specified in the manga, but he surely did a lot of damage to the planet:

I was thinking I heard it from a guidebook or somebody did some calculations rather than the manga. I'm aware the manga had no such thing in it.

Perhaps some randomer said it one day and I took it as heresay. More than probable really seeing as a lot of people throw around made up facts these days.

[Perfect]

Freeza could destroy a planet relatively easily, from a manga perspective of course. There's no doubt using the anime's logic, Cell would be able to destroy multiple solar systems, if you believe chi's numerical increase is proportional to destructiveness at least. Anyhow, I believe Vegeta during the Saiyan arc would have easily been able to turn the surface of the Earth into molten lava and chaos with one attack, but not really blow it up per say. So Freeza could effortlessly do so more than likely, seeing that in his weakened state he was able to cause one to blow in about five minutes (I'd say 5-10 really). Super Perfect Cell is, using the SSJ2 multiplier, is more than twice as strong as Goku's 150 million battle power. Two times more do to the fact that his base power obviously increased substantially. You also have to factor in the absorbed humans, #17 and #18, and the zenkai itself. I place Cell and Gohan at the end of the Cell arc as about equals, so he's about at the SSJ2 level in my book. I see no reason why Cell's explosion couldn't have been so powerful and quick that it engulfed nearby planets. He charged it quite a bit, and I doubt it was the maximum extent of his power, seeing it was probably just a little more to kill Gohan in his weakened state. So maybe he was referring to if he used all his power, I don't know, but whether he was or wasn't is an acceptable thought.

I see two possibilities:

I. The blast destroys the Sun, which destroys the solar system.
II. The blast acts like a chain reaction, taking out every celestial body in the solar system. I don't see what's so unlikely about this one. It's the end of the Cell arc, the battle powers are insane.

With Boo, I'm sure he could destroy an entire galaxy in one sweep. Kaioshin seems to imply his destructive power is so high that the universe would fall almost instantly. Bibidi is the reason it hadn't before, kind of like confining him to a planet or two here and there, but who knows, maybe more. I see absolutely no reason the explosion couldn't be so big the solar system wouldn't be instantly wiped off the 4th dimension.

[Rocketman]

Everything else aside, the single biggest reason I don't buy it:

The Earth is completely unaffected by Cell's Kamehameha. And Gohan matches it. There's supposedly enough energy there to destroy the entire solar system twice over...and it does less damage to the area than an atomic bomb would.