? about Goku's claim of showing half power before Cell games

[dario03]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Gohan supposed to be a decent bit stronger than Goku at the Cell games? I ask because I'm confused about Gohan being impressed with Goku's display of about half strength at Karin's tower and thinking that Goku was holding back against Cell. If Goku had really shown only half his power shouldn't Gohan have been able to guesstimate Goku's full power and realized that Goku wasn't stronger than himself? Or at least relize that they are close in power and not been so impressed by the display. And been able to tell that Goku was using full power against Cell. I guess its possible that they can't tell precisely how powerful someone is but there are other times where they gauge power and make estimates like that.

So did Goku actually show more than the claimed half power at Karin's tower? Or did he show more than what he claimed to keep Gohan in the dark like he some how did in their training. Or did Gohan's regular SS form not surpass Goku's until after the addittional 3 days of regular training (which I would find odd)? Or did Gohan just not learn fractions or multiplication yet

[Saiga]

Actually Gohan asks "Was that really half of Dad's power?" or something to that effect - showing that he what he felt was too weak to measure up to his idea of half of Goku's power.

[hleV]

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P10.4-5
Context: After powering up and almost destroying Karin’s tower…
Goku: “That just now was about half power. What do you think?”
Karin: “Half power…?! What a fearsome guy you are…How strong will you become before you’re satisfied…?!”

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P10.7
Context: after Goku displays his power to Karin
Gohan: “…I wonder…Has father really become so incredible?...”

Basically Karin thinks that Goku's power is incredible, but Gohan doesn't.

[dario03]

I was just going to post that hlev. I guess you could interpret that as Gohan doubting it but I saw it as him being impressed. Plus when Goku goes all out against Cell Gohan still thinks he is holding back.

[FinalFlash]

I was just going to post that hlev. I guess you could interpret that as Gohan doubting it but I saw it as him being impressed. Plus when Goku goes all out against Cell Gohan still thinks he is holding back.

Gohan's thinking that Goku was "holding back" against Cell is used to illustrate that Gohan is on another level. Goku looked like he wasn't trying because Gohan never considered that he could have surpassed his father, which he did by a great margin. I believe Goku explains this before he sends Gohan to fight Cell.

[Kaboom]

It seems to me that Gohan isn't so much doubting Goku, but also doubting himself just as much or even more. The thought of him being stronger than his dad is hard to process.

[Bussani]

I was just going to post that hlev. I guess you could interpret that as Gohan doubting it but I saw it as him being impressed. Plus when Goku goes all out against Cell Gohan still thinks he is holding back.

Viz's translation has Gohan say: "That's funny... That can't be dad's full strength..." So apparently they interpreted it the way hlev and Saiga did.

I hope Herms chimes in about the Japanese wording. That usually clears things up!

[dario03]

I was just going to post that hlev. I guess you could interpret that as Gohan doubting it but I saw it as him being impressed. Plus when Goku goes all out against Cell Gohan still thinks he is holding back.

Gohan's thinking that Goku was "holding back" against Cell is used to illustrate that Gohan is on another level. Goku looked like he wasn't trying because Gohan never considered that he could have surpassed his father, which he did by a great margin. I believe Goku explains this before he sends Gohan to fight Cell.

Yeah I know but the problem is if Gohan had seen Goku's half power before then he should of been able to tell that Goku was at full strength against Cell. Unless Goku had really shown more than 50% at Karin's. Or if Gohan had thought that Goku was actually showing a significant amount less than half at Karin's but he doesn't say that at Karin's.

So basically I'm saying if Goku had claimed ~50% but really showed something like 75% then Gohan thinking that his father was stronger could work.

Something like
Goku full power vs Cell -100
50% claim but really 75% -75
Gohan guess at Goku's FP -150

Gohan before SS2 vs Cell -120

[Saiga]

I was just going to post that hlev. I guess you could interpret that as Gohan doubting it but I saw it as him being impressed. Plus when Goku goes all out against Cell Gohan still thinks he is holding back.

Viz's translation has Gohan say: "That's funny... That can't be dad's full strength..." So apparently they interpreted it the way hlev and Saiga did.

I hope Herms chimes in about the Japanese wording. That usually clears things up!

Oh, so I was thinking of Viz's line, not the original.

[Gokuden]

Why would Goku lie about his power? That's another question.
To me, based on the fight, it didn't seem like Goku was giving it his all, Gohan alluding to his father's power is more like ''can we really pull-through this time?'' including himself.

[Bussani]

Oh, so I was thinking of Viz's line, not the original.

Yeah, but I think the original can also be taken that way. As I said, I'd like to hear Herms's take on the original.

[Mystic Gohan]

That line to me is Gohan saying: "Why is everyone making such a big deal, he ain't that great".

[Enbi]

It sounds more like "is he really all that great...?" rather than "Wow, who knew he was so amazing!" If you look at how Gohan reacts to Goku's power all throughout the Cell Games, the first interpretation makes more sense. For everyone else, it's a shocker, but his expression barely changes, and he never pipes up saying something like "whoa, so dad was that strong, huh?"

Instead, he says:

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P7.1-3
Context: everyone gawking at Goku’s full power
Kuririn: “This really is an incredible ki…! It figures he’d outstrip everyone.”
Gohan: “…Why is everyone so surprised…I think he really is incredible, but…”

In Gohan's eyes: "He's incredible, but...is he really that incredible?"

[Bussani]

It sounds more like "is he really all that great...?" rather than "Wow, who knew he was so amazing!" If you look at how Gohan reacts to Goku's power all throughout the Cell Games, the first interpretation makes more sense.

That line to me is Gohan saying: "Why is everyone making such a big deal, he ain't that great".

That's how I've interpreted it, too. I'd just like to be sure it can be read that way in Japanese. It probably can, since Viz took it that way. Their translation isn't always perfect, but they usually seem to capture the underlying meaning of things like this pretty well.

Usually.

[dario03]

Gohan's later statements about Goku not being so great were when he thought Goku was holding back. The problem I'm having is that he should of been able to tell that Goku wasn't holding back. I just don't see how Gohan could think that his Dad is holding back against Cell if Goku had shown what he claims to be 50% power to Gohan unless Gohan just didn't believe that it was really as high as 50% or Goku had actually shown more than 50%. Either Goku was lieing and had shown more than 50% or Gohan thought he was lieing the other way and thought he was really showing a good bit less than 50% (but he doesn't say or seem to imply that hes thinking that).

For example lets say I max bench 220lbs (100kg) and I then see someone say "I'm going to warm up with half my max" and they bench 90lbs (41kg). From that if I believe that they were really doing half their max I'm going to realize that I have a greater bench and I'm not going to be surprised that they can't bench 250lbs (113kg). So when that person goes for their max and does 180lbs (82kg) I'm not going to think that they are holding back.

So if at Karin's tower if Gohan had said something like "hmmmm I think dad's being modest that was probably only 30% of his power" then I wouldn't have a problem.

[Enbi]

It's because of how calm Goku acts despite saying that he'll lose to Cell. Gohan must think that he has some sort of plan, or some sort of hidden power. When Goku powers up and reveals a power that's still well below Gohan's power, it makes sense he'd wonder "Okay, what's up? This isn't anything new, how come you're so confident, dad?" (since he didn't know that Goku's plan was Gohan himself).

[Ketchup_Revenge]

This answer is more about how Gohan had always perceived Goku.

Gohan had never for a moment thought that he could ever be stronger than Goku, because Goku had always been miles ahead of him, so it makes sense why he wasn't impressed with Goku's display of ki while visiting Karin. He probably honestly believed that Goku was lying about it being 50%. Due to this perception, it also makes sense why he thought that Goku was holding out on Cell, which he really wasn't.

But it does make sense why he believed this. Goku simply didn't have the drive and ferocity to defeat the enemy that he had with Freeza and Vegeta, and everybody could see it. But the reason to this wasn't because of some new move that Goku knew, but rather that he'd never intended to beat Cell in the first place. That was the whole reason why he trained Gohan, and in all honesty, Goku's fight with Cell was intended as training for Gohan to some degree as well. Goku only fought Cell to allow Gohan to study his abilities prior to their fight. Gohan was essentially being conditioned to know his opponent and exploit any weaknesses to win.