Did Freeza train?

[DanTheBib]

I should imagine Vegeta was taught basic things like flight, and masking your true power. Probably by his father, brother, or a servant of some sort. I assume he had to train via sparring, otherwise he'd have a massive amount of power with no fighting ability (think Goten after he could first go SSJ). You can be the biggest, toughest guy there is, but if you have no technique and then go up against any decent martial artist (especially a master one such as Goku), you wouldn't win.

[Bussani]

I should imagine Vegeta was taught basic things like flight, and masking your true power.

But didn't he learn that by himself after going to Earth?

Whoa--I just got the shivers. M...maybe I shouldn't be opening this can of worms...

[freezamite]

Nope, the fact that when using his full power it can't fight for longer than a few minutes proves that he never trained, and never had to train before to become the strongest of the universe.
And of course, had freeza trained even a bit, it would have been a lot stronger than he was. There is a way to prove that, and that is the Zenkay power Cell had at the end of the Cell game's. It gave him the power of a SSJ2 when the normal sayan (including the bastards like Gohan and Trunks) lost this ability once they reached its limit in the base form.
But Cell wasn't like a sayan, even when his aura was the same as the SSJ one (it makes sense since he has sayan cells), the fact that he can zenkay in those conditions means that his natural limit of power is far beyond the limit of a normal sayan, and seeing piccolo's evolution further in the series, is obvious that only Freeza could be the one (or his father Cold, but Freeza was stronger) to provide him with such a huge natural power.

I think that Freezer was the strongest being in terms of maximum potential (among with Cell because is an improved version of him), obviously not including any sort of absorption or fusion.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't believe that Freeza never trained. What I believe is this:

When Freeza was born (in his Final Form), he was born with a very big battle power, since his race is a mutant race. Cold trained him, and taught him all the techniques Freeza knows. Freeza, with training, learned how to increase his muscle size, so that he can become stronger than he was, and eventually, his battle power went up to 120.000.000, making him the strongest being in the universe. He also learned how to suppress his battle power, but only down to about 3,000,000. So, to suppress his battle power even more, he transformed into his First Form, to bring his power down to 530.000. I assume that he kept training a little every now and then, so that he won't get any weaker.

[freezamite]

I don't believe that Freeza never trained. What I believe is this:

When Freeza was born (in his Final Form), he was born with a very big battle power, since his race is a mutant race. Cold trained him, and taught him all the techniques Freeza knows. Freeza, with training, learned how to increase his muscle size, so that he can become stronger than he was, and eventually, his battle power went up to 120.000.000, making him the strongest being in the universe. He also learned how to suppress his battle power, but only down to about 3,000,000. So, to suppress his battle power even more, he transformed into his First Form, to bring his power down to 530.000. I assume that he kept training a little every now and then, so that he won't get any weaker.

I don't think the relationship between Cold and Freeza was the one we could expect from a father and his son, but well, this is only speculation.
In the other hand, I don't think Freeza has 120 milions of power, ¡¡¡more like 12!!!!

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think the relationship between Cold and Freeza was the one we could expect from a father and his son, but well, this is only speculation.

Well, Freeza was calling Cold "Papa", rather than "Father", which gives me the feeling that Freeza is very close to his father. And there is this in the manga as well:

Chapter: 310 (DBZ 116), P2.2-3
Freeza: “I didn’t think you’d be this good…You’re the first person besides my parent who’s got dust on me…

Which makes me think that Cold did this to Freeza during training.

True, it's only speculation, but not entirely baseless.

[Bussani]

Nope, the fact that when using his full power it can't fight for longer than a few minutes proves that he never trained

I'm not sure about that. Goku and Gotenks can only fight as Super Saiyan 3s for a few minutes, but they obviously trained. Goku also said that the Grade forms would use up your ki at a faster rate, and they seem quite similar to the way Freeza bulked up his muscles. It seems to me that even with training, there are ways to reach your "full power" that can have these sorts of effects on your stamina.

I don't think Freeza has 120 milions of power, ¡¡¡more like 12!!!!

12,000,000? Hm. Would that be assuming Goku was weaker than Vegeta and Piccolo? I suppose that could work so long as you assume he was using Kaio-ken x10 throughout the fight, although the manga doesn't hint at that the way some people think the anime did.

[Fox666]

Well, Freeza was calling Cold "Papa", rather than "Father", which gives me the feeling that Freeza is very close to his father.

I am not so sure, Freeza used a childish like talk a few times in his small forms.

[dario03]

Nope, the fact that when using his full power it can't fight for longer than a few minutes proves that he never trained, and never had to train before to become the strongest of the universe.
And of course, had freeza trained even a bit, it would have been a lot stronger than he was. There is a way to prove that, and that is the Zenkay power Cell had at the end of the Cell game's. It gave him the power of a SSJ2 when the normal sayan (including the bastards like Gohan and Trunks) lost this ability once they reached its limit in the base form.
But Cell wasn't like a sayan, even when his aura was the same as the SSJ one (it makes sense since he has sayan cells), the fact that he can zenkay in those conditions means that his natural limit of power is far beyond the limit of a normal sayan, and seeing piccolo's evolution further in the series, is obvious that only Freeza could be the one (or his father Cold, but Freeza was stronger) to provide him with such a huge natural power.

I think that Freezer was the strongest being in terms of maximum potential (among with Cell because is an improved version of him), obviously not including any sort of absorption or fusion.

I don't think that proves that he never trained, he might of just made a bad choice in forms like SSG3 or it could be like his SS3 or he could just be out of shape (didn't Roshi say he was so he trained between tournaments). Or compare it to real life, lots of real life athletes that are large muscled don't have great cardio but are really strong. And even non large muscled fighters can do really good at fights but not have great cardio or can get out of shape. BJ Penn is a multiple time multiple division UFC champion but his cardio is always in question because sometimes its great and sometimes its not.

[Gokuden]

He trained benchpressing Zarbon on 10x gravity.

[freezamite]

Well, Freeza was calling Cold "Papa", rather than "Father", which gives me the feeling that Freeza is very close to his father. And there is this in the manga as well:
Which makes me think that Cold did this to Freeza during training.

True, it's only speculation, but not entirely baseless.

I didn't say it was baseless, in fact, I think it's a way of seeing it.

I'm not sure about that. Goku and Gotenks can only fight as Super Saiyan 3s for a few minutes, but they obviously trained. Goku also said that the Grade forms would use up your ki at a faster rate, and they seem quite similar to the way Freeza bulked up his muscles. It seems to me that even with training, there are ways to reach your "full power" that can have these sorts of effects on your stamina.

Well, I think that what differs is the idea behind those facts. I mean, while the SSJ3 is presented as the refinement of a refined form of SSJ, and the limit in strength a Sayan (or at leas Goku) can reach, Freezer is the whole opposite. Someone with such a great power that has to transform not in order to increase it, but to control and confine it. No one had never put Freezer in the need to go at full power before Goku, and while the sayan is a character that even when there are no enemies doesn't stop its training (although he could relax a bit, he never stops completely), Freezer is a character that even when fliying is sitting relaxed in his mini-ship.

With that being said, I must recognise that those are just "ideas" and "feelings" that although having it's reasons behind, can be interpreted in another way. And in order to prove a point, I need to bring something more concrete, a proof of what I say. And this proof is found in Cell, in his zenkay power, that demonstrates that his limit in strength was beyond the one of a sayan, and that Freezer's limit was way greater than what he showed in Namek.

I don't think Freeza has 120 milions of power, ¡¡¡more like 12!!!!

12,000,000? Hm. Would that be assuming Goku was weaker than Vegeta and Piccolo? I suppose that could work so long as you assume he was using Kaio-ken x10 throughout the fight, although the manga doesn't hint at that the way some people think the anime did.

Yes, I would give Goku a power of 300.000 units more or less. I think the manga clarifies the fact that Goku used Kaioh Ken x10 since the beginning far more than the anime, because in the manga the Kaioh ken x10 aura is never drawn meaning that this was Goku's "default" power when fighting Freezer.

Or compare it to real life, lots of real life athletes that are large muscled don't have great cardio but are really strong. And even non large muscled fighters can do really good at fights but not have great cardio or can get out of shape. BJ Penn is a multiple time multiple division UFC champion but his cardio is always in question because sometimes its great and sometimes its not.

Well, as I said, it is a fact that Freezer's limit of strength is beyond what he had in Namek, demonstrating that the loose of strength was because of him not being used to fight to the limit, than him reaching the maximum strength he could possibly reach.
SSJ3 is as I said, the maximum expression of a transformation that allowed Sayans to surpass their limit, so it is logic that bringing the body at that point of energy is completely unsustainable for a sayan. This wasn't the case of Freezer who simply fought using all his strength in his normal state, it's a whole different scenario.

[Saiga]

Goku's Kaio-ken x10 aura is drawn in the manga, at several points.

[freezamite]

Goku's Kaio-ken x10 aura is drawn in the manga, at several points.

Not a single time. The only auras drawn during that fight are normal energy auras (the ones drawn when someone flies) and the Kaioh Ken x20 aura. Those are all the auras drawn in the manga.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku's power was already enough to take everyone by surprise before he even started fighting. You have Vegeta admitting that Goku was on a whole new level--believing he was potentially a Super Saiyan, and you have Krillin also under the impression that Goku isn't even Goku after sensing how drastic his Chi has changed. There's also Goku being not only excited, but a bit taken back that his powers were as incredible as they were after getting out of the healing tank.

Freeza can't sense Chi, but he's able to see that Goku was holding-back a lot of power (Kaio-Ken x10) in their battle. Since Goku agrees and never planned on using Kaio-Ken x20 to begin with, I'd say that's enough to show it's very unlikely he used the Kaio-Ken x10 before Freeza started using half of his power. Goku's shown attacking Freeza in Kaio-Ken x10 and being knocked out of the aura, with Kaio stating he was already using it in the following page after Tien's suggestion. It might seem like a bit much for some, but Goku's gain was really that incredible. Also, Kaio-Ken is primarily used in bursts, so him maintaining it for the entire fight while "holding-back" just seems odd.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku's Kaio-ken x10 aura is drawn in the manga, at several points.

Not a single time. The only auras drawn during that fight are normal energy auras (the ones drawn when someone flies) and the Kaioh Ken x20 aura. Those are all the auras drawn in the manga.

Actually, when Goku is flying towards Freeza, the aura he displays could possibly by Kaio-ken, since Goku's eye color seems to reflect a light (they are "white").

[Bussani]

With that being said, I must recognise that those are just "ideas" and "feelings" that although having it's reasons behind, can be interpreted in another way. And in order to prove a point, I need to bring something more concrete, a proof of what I say. And this proof is found in Cell, in his zenkay power, that demonstrates that his limit in strength was beyond the one of a sayan, and that Freezer's limit was way greater than what he showed in Namek.

I can see how you're reaching your opinion, but I'm sorry to say that this doesn't seem like proof to me. I think our underlying ideas of how things like limits and near death power ups work are just too different. To me, Freeza's muscular form isn't very different from the Super Saiyan Grades, which, according to Goku, have similar drawbacks. Freeza calls it his full, 100% power--because it is 100% of what he's capable of--but I think he's sort of pushing his body beyond its (current) limits to reach that point.

Yes, I would give Goku a power of 300.000 units more or less. I think the manga clarifies the fact that Goku used Kaioh Ken x10 since the beginning far more than the anime, because in the manga the Kaioh ken x10 aura is never drawn meaning that this was Goku's "default" power when fighting Freezer.

The only auras drawn during that fight are normal energy auras (the ones drawn when someone flies) and the Kaioh Ken x20 aura. Those are all the auras drawn in the manga.

I have to disagree. Goku has a very distinctive look while using Kaio-ken--even more so in the Freeza arc than in the Saiyan arc. The eyes are white, and the hair is practically Super Saiyan in shape. It looks to me as though he uses it several times during their fight, starting immediately after they both agree that the "warm up" is over.

[freezamite]

Goku's power was already enough to take everyone by surprise before he even started fighting.

Of course, he was using Kaioh Ken the whole time. I mean, the moment he arrives, he must activate kaioh ken in order to survive if he didn't do that at Freeza's spaceship.

You have Vegeta admitting that Goku was on a whole new level--believing he was potentially a Super Saiyan, and you have Krillin also under the impression that Goku isn't even Goku after sensing how drastic his Chi has changed. There's also Goku being not only excited, but a bit taken back that his powers were as incredible as they were after getting out of the healing tank.

Last time Krilin sensed Goku's power he was at around 60.000. Maybe he could sense the 180.000 he used against Ginyu, but the difference against the 3 million he has when kaiohkened is absolutely huge.

Freeza can't sense Chi, but he's able to see that Goku was holding-back a lot of power (Kaio-Ken x10) in their battle.

But that's because Goku was holding back even when using Kaioh Ken. I mean, we as humans can't increase or decrease our ki, but we can also fight serious or not depending the situation.

Since Goku agrees and never planned on using Kaio-Ken x20 to begin with, I'd say that's enough to show it's very unlikely he used the Kaio-Ken x10 before Freeza started using half of his power.

Well, this is because he didn't know that Freezer had all that strength hidden. Both Goku and Freezer were warming up, and both of them knew the other one wasn't fighting at maximum strength.
When Freezer powered-up at 100%, he also warmed-up against Goku SSJ. He was at 100% of Ki, but he didn't fight at maximum strength. The same can be applied at Goku's Kaioh Ken x10 before Freezer unleashes his 50%.

Goku's shown attacking Freeza in Kaio-Ken x10 and being knocked out of the aura, with Kaio stating he was already using it in the following page after Tenshinhan's suggestion.

This is not Kaioh ken, but a flying aura. Kaioh Ken's aura remains around Goku the whole time he uses kaioh ken, not only when he flies against his enemy at full speed.

It might seem like a bit much for some, but Goku's gain was really that incredible. Also, Kaio-Ken is primarily used in bursts, so him maintaining it for the entire fight while "holding-back" just seems odd.

Yes, but the alternative to thinking that Goku had mastered Kaioh Ken enough to use it in a sustained way, is to think that with a difference in power of 20x Freeza wouldn't have killed Goku in one single hit. The difference can't be that brutal because the whole manga wouldn't have any sense.
Goku said when he arrived at Namek that the kaioh ken x10 was already mastered, so its obvious to think that in the day he was in Namek fighting Ginyu he also mastered the Kaioh Ken x10 a bit more.

Actually, when Goku is flying towards Freeza, the aura he displays could possibly by Kaio-ken, since Goku's eye color seems to reflect a light (they are "white").

Kaioh Ken aura is identifiable because it doesn't disappear while the technique is being used. All this auras that are shown when Goku flies are normal energy aura's emitted when flying, even when his eyes turned white.
Look for example at the fight between Vegeta and the Ginyu forces, in those 2 chapters he also has an aura that whitens his eyes but it's not a KaiohKen aura by any means!

To me, Freeza's muscular form isn't very different from the Super Saiyan Grades, which, according to Goku, have similar drawbacks. Freeza calls it his full, 100% power--because it is 100% of what he's capable of--but I think he's sort of pushing his body beyond its (current) limits to reach that point.

Well, since we don't know how Freezer's anatomy would be, and why his body inflates in that way, we can only speculate about that. But we have the fact that I pointed before.
We know that neither Vegeta or Goku can zenkay themselves to increase their power once the limit is reached. Piccolo's limit was below the one of a SSJ Full Power, it's pretty clear during the Bu saga. So the only way a Zenkay power up makes sense in that context is that he had the capability to zenkay thanks to the sayan cells, but also a limit in strength that surpassed the ones of the sayans. Since it's not the case of Piccolo, and the only two that are part of cell are Freezer and Cold, it has to be them.

Goku has a very distinctive look while using Kaio-ken--even more so in the Freeza arc than in the Saiyan arc. The eyes are white, and the hair is practically Super Saiyan in shape. It looks to me as though he uses it several times during their fight, starting immediately after they both agree that the "warm up" is over.

Problem with this is that KK aura doesn't disappear until the attack is disabled. It's impossible that Goku activated the Kaioh Ken x10 only to flight towards Freezer, and then it deactivated it in order to punch him or evade his attacks.
If it was a kaioh ken x2 we could assume that Freezer was fighting in a totally relaxed way that compensated this difference, but 10x is too much of a difference.

[Darkprince410]

Think about this though. Upon Goku arriving on the battlefield, Vegeta boasts to Freeza that Goku is the Super Saiya-jin of legend, and is strong enough to do what he could not (defeat Freeza). If Vegeta, who was easily over a million in terms of his battle power (Given Piccolo acknowledged that Vegeta was far stronger than he was, and Piccolo at the time was well over 1 million, given he was able to go toe-to-toe with Freeza's 2nd form), stood no chance against Freeza yet could tell Goku was stronger than he was, then Goku, in his base, was well over a million.

Secondly, the manga doesn't say that he was using it the entire time. What Tenshinhan and Kaiou say are:

Tenshinhan: "There’s nothing to worry about. Goku will win this match…Aren't you forgetting about the Kaio-Ken? As he is now, Goku is able to endure a maximum of up to about 10 times his power, right?"
Kaio: "Unfortunately... That Ten-Fold Kaio-Ken is what Goku is using now..."

That's not saying that he was using it the entire time, just that he was already using it in this situation, now that Freeza had increased his power to 50%. Tenshinhan, not directly aware of what was going on in the fight since he was only hearing the commentary of the fight from Kaiou, thought that despite the fact that Freeza had increased his strength drastically, Goku had yet to start using the 10x Kaiou-ken, so he might still be able to win. Kaiou responded by saying that Goku was losing to Freeza's 50% power despite now using the 10x Kaiou-ken against him.

[DanTheBib]

I should imagine Vegeta was taught basic things like flight, and masking your true power.

But didn't he learn that by himself after going to Earth?

Whoa--I just got the shivers. M...maybe I shouldn't be opening this can of worms...

Ah, what I meant was having different forms and concealing his power that way. No can of worms from me

[SSJFinny]

I think Freeza did train when he was younger to get the basics, but due to him feeling superior to everything he never saw the need to push his limits further. He was probably given everything he asked for. As for Cooler he was the older brother so he had to work for everything in his life, and was used to doing grunt work in the field. Cooler did train he states in the movie he reached a new form, plus can generate ki tons faster than Freeza. Proving he had to of trained at least sometimes. I also think King Cold can transform, he probably walks around in second form to uphold dominance over everyone. He just never got the chance to transform. He was probably really confident it was more Trunks sword than anything and was caught off guard taking a serious blow through the chest. Which rendered him into shock and weakened him substantially, and Trunks never gave him the chance to recover let alone transform.
Thats just my opinion on it.