Because I'm more of a fanboy than you are.

[Duo]

The exact quote -

"I hadn't really counted on regenerating. I was lucky. Even better, now I'm complete without #18 and I've powered up - like Son Gohan.. It must have been my Saiyan Cells - A boost in power after a brush with death."

[B-kun]

I think what Cell meant was that he had recieved a large power up similiar to Gohan's. I don't think he literally meant he became Super Saiyan 2.

[Duo]

Why wouldn't he? He was 2/5th's Saiyan - that seems like more than enough blood to achieve the powerups.

Especially since he displayed uniquely Super Saiyan Aura's many times throughout his battles.

[DBZ MAN]

If Toriyama "wasn't strict" to this idea, then there would be other examples of this paradox.

Like I said. He was Super Saiyan 2 against Kid Buu But he had no lightning. And then again you could agrue that this is just the animie.

[Duo]

If Toriyama "wasn't strict" to this idea, then there would be other examples of this paradox.

Like I said. He was Super Saiyan 2 against Kid Buu But he had no lightning. And then again you could agrue that this is just the animie.

Both times you posted that, you also provided exactly how I would answer.

[Dayspring]

The exact quote -

"I hadn't really counted on regenerating. I was lucky. Even better, now I'm complete without #18 and I've powered up - like Son Gohan.. It must have been my Saiyan Cells - A boost in power after a brush with death."

Hmmm... here we'll need someone who the Japanese version to verify. The French version says "remarkably" instead of " - like Son Gohan."

[DBZ MAN]

If Toriyama "wasn't strict" to this idea, then there would be other examples of this paradox.

Like I said. He was Super Saiyan 2 against Kid Buu But he had no lightning. And then again you could agrue that this is just the animie.

Both times you posted that, you also provided exactly how I would answer.

But what I'm saying is, surely if he was strict about certain aspects, he would of asked to have Goku and Vegeta for that matter to have lightning when going SSJ 2. But I'll shutup about this now. I could be wrong.

[Duo]

Toriyama-sensei had almost no involvement with the majority of the Anime's production. By the time he would have learned about that, it would have already been on Television.

Dayspring - I can go so far as to check the Japanese episode, even though a lot of the event is rearranged and added to.

[Dayspring]

Dayspring - I can go so far as to check the Japanese episode, even though a lot of the event is rearranged and added to.

Don't bother. I'm just talking manga in this instance. The anime is like a "second edition," giving it oppurtunities to have retcons and errors.

Though I can't think of any working retcons.

[Bejiita]

When Goku is telling Gohan to get angry I actually think he is just giving him words of wisdom to make him have more courage, like when he was in the process of doing that Kamehameha against Cell, Goku had to give him his words of wisdom to make Gohan find the spirit to win.

I'd love to believe that Gohan isn't SSJ2 where you've said he wasn't, but I'm just one of those people who can't take it when I think I'm right about it!

Dayspring could be right about Gohan just not being as powerful as he was back then but just not producing lightning, but still a SSJ2.

Duo, you were also right about Gohan's hair being slightly different when comparing his Saiyaman hair and his hair at the Tenkaichi Budokai, I see the one strand of hair is longer in base form, but I just always had it in my mind that SSJ1 Gohan was the one where you'dseethe two stands when SSJ, and SSJ2 is when there's one long strand, plus loads of similar ones pointing upwards.

I think Gohan did go SSJ1 when angry about Videl now I look at it.

But I think Gohan's power was fully restored by Kibito, it was fully restored and Gohan even mentions how he feels stronger than before. Why would Kibito not give him his full power? I actually don't know why Gohan decided to go beyond at that point...I mean it's not as if he had to, he would even be able to bash Kibito in base form. The scene was very nice though.

Still, I really find it difficult, becuase the term SSJ2 isn't even used until Goku goes SSJ3. So when Vegeta says how Gohan is not as strong as when he fought Cell he could mean that he is no longer able to go beyond anymore. But that is not true, since he went beyond against Kibito!

Funny stuff here.

you know what? I will just assume Gohan is SSJ2 against Dabura and Buu, it just doesn't make sense.

Plus, I actually think in the dub they make it seem as if Gohan finally took that step forward when he first goes SSJ2 against Cell, the narrator says so much, but the original just has that tune in the BG and the narrator doesn't say that much. Then we go 7 years ahead and Gohan is literally like he was before!

[Dayspring]

When you think about it, the main problem isn't so much Gohan and SSJ2 vs Dabura, as it is the fact that both Vegeta and Goku confirm that Dabura is as strong as Cell. If that's the case, then how could a weaker Gohan who choses to fight in SSJ1 only, be able to survive?

Answer: plothole. And I'm sticking with it.

[t-bone135]

When you think about it, the main problem isn't so much Gohan and SSJ2 vs Dabura, as it is the fact that both Vegeta and Goku confirm that Dabura is as strong as Cell. If that's the case, then how could a weaker Gohan who choses to fight in SSJ1 only, be able to survive?

Answer: plothole. And I'm sticking with it.

Maybe not Dayspring. It depends on which Cell they're talking about. If they are talking about Cell after he blew up, then yeah that makes sense. But if they are talking about Cell before he blew up, then it changes the light a little. Goku could fight Cell before he blew up as a SSj FP, which is clearly not SSj 2. SSj 2 owned Cell, but only before he blew up.

Just food for thought.

[ShadowAssailantX]

When Kibito is healing Gohan, he says... "He's still not back at full power...his Ki is immeasurable. I never thought there could be an earthling with such vast, pure energy...no wonder they wanted it!"

So, there's a possibility he wasn't able to fully restore Gohan's drained Ki, but also, before it shows Gohan fully healed, there are a couple frames showing Mighty Mask (Goten/Trunks) talking, so it may have just been a matter of a couple more seconds before he was healed.

Here is another. Gohan is standing in front of Dabra and Bobbidi, in his base form, as they exchange dialogue. Gohan is thinking back on something his father said to him after giving him the Senzu.

"Get angry, Gohan. Remember the time you fought Cell, and bring out all the power you have. You can't lose to anyone that way - anyone!"

While remember this, Gohan's face is dripping sweat, and he "replies" with this.

"I am angry...! But still...I can't be the way I was then..." and then he transforms into Super Saiyan.

This seems to indicate that Gohan is afraid to use Ssj2 in battle, because of how it makes him, and how it resulted in the death of his father. That, perhaps, is the reason. Gohan has come to a point, once again, where he won't use his full power because he's scared of himself. This is what makes his "Mightiest" powerup later so significant, because it totally removes that inhibition.

Somebodies done their homework.

You have some really good examples there! These points are all (surprisingly) valid and insightful, and answer many questions I've harbored on this topic. Thanks a bunch for refrencing all that! I Have to say Duo, I'm impressed.

Dayspring wrote:
When you think about it, the main problem isn't so much Gohan and SSJ2 vs Dabura, as it is the fact that both Vegeta and Goku confirm that Dabura is as strong as Cell. If that's the case, then how could a weaker Gohan who choses to fight in SSJ1 only, be able to survive?

Answer: plothole. And I'm sticking with it.

Maybe not Dayspring. It depends on which Cell they're talking about. If they are talking about Cell after he blew up, then yeah that makes sense. But if they are talking about Cell before he blew up, then it changes the light a little. Goku could fight Cell before he blew up as a SSj FP, which is clearly not SSj 2. SSj 2 owned Cell, but only before he blew up.

This can be further explained by examining Dabura's reason for fighting Gohan. It wasn't to just kill him/turn him to stone, it was to battle him and absorb his energy into the battfield. He may have purposefully held back in order to prolong the battle and gather more energy to ressurect Buu.

[Duo]

Somebodies done their homework. Very Happy

You have some really good examples there! These points are all (surprisingly) valid and insightful, and answer many questions I've harbored on this topic. Thanks a bunch for refrencing all that! I Have to say Duo, I'm impressed.

Wow...I'm humbled. Thank you very much, sir.

Maybe not Dayspring. It depends on which Cell they're talking about. If they are talking about Cell after he blew up, then yeah that makes sense. But if they are talking about Cell before he blew up, then it changes the light a little. Goku could fight Cell before he blew up as a SSj FP, which is clearly not SSj 2. SSj 2 owned Cell, but only before he blew up.

Just food for thought. Smile

I would like to reference the idea that Goku was referring to the Cell he fought, since he knows people best through battle...and all that stuff I typed a few posts up.

But it is also a good possibility that Dabra was just holding back, since the goal was to inflict damage and not kill. He was hardly winded by fighting Gohan, whereas Gohan was clearly having quite the hard time.

[Majin Kakarot]

I like the topic, but I must say, I high disagree with you having Base Goku at only 60 Kiri's.......Yakon was 800, Goku was clearly stronger.

Goku wasn't stronger. He was faster.For example, Goku's PL was lower than Ginyu's, but he was much faster. Besides Yakon wasn't using full power, he expected it to be an easy fight, hence Goku's human appearence. Also Goku is a fighting genius.Yakon is the kind of guy(monster) that uses brute strenght to pummel his opponents.

[Dayspring]

Maybe not Dayspring. It depends on which Cell they're talking about. If they are talking about Cell after he blew up, then yeah that makes sense. But if they are talking about Cell before he blew up, then it changes the light a little. Goku could fight Cell before he blew up as a SSj FP, which is clearly not SSj 2. SSj 2 owned Cell, but only before he blew up.

Just food for thought. Smile

I would like to reference the idea that Goku was referring to the Cell he fought, since he knows people best through battle...and all that stuff I typed a few posts up.

Fair enough, but Gohan vs Dabura wasn't anywhere near as strong as FP Goku vs Cell.

[Duo]

Maybe not Dayspring. It depends on which Cell they're talking about. If they are talking about Cell after he blew up, then yeah that makes sense. But if they are talking about Cell before he blew up, then it changes the light a little. Goku could fight Cell before he blew up as a SSj FP, which is clearly not SSj 2. SSj 2 owned Cell, but only before he blew up.

Just food for thought. Smile

I would like to reference the idea that Goku was referring to the Cell he fought, since he knows people best through battle...and all that stuff I typed a few posts up.

Fair enough, but Gohan vs Dabura wasn't anywhere near as strong as FP Goku vs Cell.

Well...that's rather hard to determine. We'd have to figure out how much stronger Gohan was than Goku during the Cell Game and all that jazz before we can make that call.

But I'm glad you're starting to come around.