The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Raditz was nearly killed by Gohan who had a power of only 1300.

Raditz wasn't nearly killed. He didn't even break a bone. And while I agree about Nappa's battle power being wrong, you don't seem to have read anything else from the guidebooks, other than the battle powers. Because I've read everything Herms & TripleRach have translated from the Daizenshuu, along with the new stuff we got from the Perfect Files, the Kanzenban Guides, and the Super Exciting Guides, and my conclusion is that the guidebooks are legit sources, better than the anime. Sure, they have some (unimportant) mistakes, but so does the manga. In fact, the manga has more important inconsistencies.

[freezamite]

Thats not the case at all. It was pretty obvious Goku was toying with him. If Goku was hit by that Kappa he would have been hurt because he wasn't ready for it. Raditz could probably raise his power level if he tried however I don't trust this level either. I'm not saying I disagreeing with you I'm simply stating these levels are possible and have not been debunked.

Goku wasn't playing at all. He powered up at above 8000, and he fought against nappa at full force. This is why when Nappa attacked Gohan and Krilin, Goku had to use Kaioh Ken x2 in order to protect them, because he wasn't strong enough to stop Nappa in that situation.
If Nappa had only 4000, then Goku could easily surpass him in speed and knock him before he could do nothing to anyone.

Problem with those level powers is that were made without thinking too much into them, and as you say, they weren't tested in manga scenarios that made them impossible.

Raditz wasn't nearly killed. He didn't even break a bone. And while I agree about Nappa's battle power being wrong, you don't seem to have read anything else from the guidebooks, other than the battle powers. Because I've read everything Herms & TripleRach have translated from the Daizenshuu, along with the new stuff we got from the Perfect Files, the Kanzenban Guides, and the Super Exciting Guides, and my conclusion is that the guidebooks are legit sources, better than the anime. Sure, they have some (unimportant) mistakes, but so does the manga. In fact, the manga has more important inconsistencies.

Yes he was. Firstly, we can't know if he had a broken bone or not, but what we know is that Raditz was so injured, that even Goku who was far weaker than him and had been already badly injured was able to hold him enough time to let Piccolo concentrate his attack. Even Raditz was surprised by the vast amount of power he lost because of Gohan's single hit.

Goku had an advantageous position, like #16 against Cell, but with the little strength he had left, Raditz had to be at 150-200 units at the very best.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yes he was. Firstly, we can't know if he had a broken bone or not, but what we know is that Raditz was so injured, that even Goku who was far weaker than him and had been already badly injured was able to hold him enough time to let Piccolo concentrate his attack. Even Raditz was surprised by the vast amount of power he lost because of Gohan's single hit.

Goku had an advantageous position, like #16 against Cell, but with the little strength he had left, Raditz had to be at 150-200 units at the very best.

There is no indication that Raditz got weaker, or seriously damaged. so it's all speculation. Goku managed to hold Raditz for just a few seconds with a grappling move that is not easily escapable. Also, battle powers don't work like the Life Points in video games.

[freezamite]

Yes he was. Firstly, we can't know if he had a broken bone or not, but what we know is that Raditz was so injured, that even Goku who was far weaker than him and had been already badly injured was able to hold him enough time to let Piccolo concentrate his attack. Even Raditz was surprised by the vast amount of power he lost because of Gohan's single hit.

Goku had an advantageous position, like #16 against Cell, but with the little strength he had left, Raditz had to be at 150-200 units at the very best.

There is no indication that Raditz got weaker, or seriously damaged. so it's all speculation. Goku managed to hold Raditz for just a few seconds with a grappling move that is not easily escapable. Also, battle powers don't work like the Life Points in video games.

Yes it is. When Goku is holding him Raditz thinks to himself "shit! I took too much damage from that kid's attack!". I'm not trying to be literal, because now I haven't got the manga here, but he says that, and in fact, is the only explanation why Goku could do what he did.
I know that Battle points aren't the same as life points in games, but it's a fact that the more injured you are, the more batllepoints you loose. Then you can also loose battle points because you get tired after fighting, but injuries are the way most battle points are lost during a fight.

Regards!

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yes it is. When Goku is holding him Raditz thinks to himself "shit! I took too much damage from that kid's attack!".

It depends on how you take it. You could take it like "I'm too weak", I could take it like "I can't move properly because my chest hurts like a bitch". And Raditz would break Goku's hold if more time had passed.

[Fox666]

If Nappa had only 4000, then Goku could easily surpass him in speed and knock him before he could do nothing to anyone.

That's exactly what happened, don't? I don't remember Nappa landing a single hit on Goku, who was treating him like a baby.

Problem with those level powers is that were made without thinking too much into them, and as you say, they weren't tested in manga scenarios that made them impossible.

Isn't that true for the manga itself? When fighting Reecome, Vegeta battle power was 20,000 in the manga. The manga was later corrected to 30,000 after that same number was given in the Daizenshuu.

Raditz was nearly killed by Gohan who had a power of only 1300.

After Gohan attacked him, Raditz mentioned that he was stronger than Goku, instead of saying Gohan was stronger than both of them.



Raditz: “Only a child?! You’re joking! The brat has a higher battle power than you!”

Also Vegeta mentioned that Raditz was pitful for being defeated by a battle power of 1,330, so apparently the manga also points out that his battle power was superior than that.



Vegeta: “Geez, what a pitiful guy... To be killed by guys with battle powers slightly over 1,000 at most...”

Finally, in a memo Toriyama said Raditz was stronger than a Saibaiman. So it seems everything points out that the Daizenshuu is right about Raditz's battle power.

[freezamite]

Yes it is. When Goku is holding him Raditz thinks to himself "shit! I took too much damage from that kid's attack!".

It depends on how you take it. You could take it like "I'm too weak", I could take it like "I can't move properly because my chest hurts like a bitch". And Raditz would break Goku's hold if more time had passed.

He talked about lost strength, I mean, of course if he had rested for a while then he could break Goku's hold, but that applies to every fight of the manga. If Vegeta had had time to rest, he would have killed all the earthlings, and the same goes for Zarbon, Freezer and all those who lost because they fought when already injured.

That's exactly what happened, don't? I don't remember Nappa landing a single hit on Goku, while he was being threatened like a baby.

Well... no. When Nappa fought calmly he couldn't land a hit on Goku, but Goku also couldn't land a single hit on Nappa. And when he had to stop Nappa to protect his friends, Goku needed Kaioh ken x2 in order to do it. That's not the difference between someone with 4000 and someone with 8000+ like Goku.

Isn't that true for the manga itself? When fighting Reecome, Vegeta battle power was 20,000 in the manga. The manga was later corrected to 30,000 after that same number was given in the Daizenshuu.

Toriyama had his own mistakes, this being one of them. But besides those exceptions, it's obvious that the strength he gave his characters was far more logical and balanced than the one given on the guides.

After Gohan attacked him, Raditz mentioned that he was stronger than Goku, instead of saying Gohan was stronger than both of them.

Raditz: “Only a child?! You’re joking! The brat has a higher battle power than you!”

Raditz saying that implies that he had more than 1300? Really? Raditz was of course below that number, otherwise, the attack wouldn't harm him.

Also Vegeta mentioned that Raditz was pitful for being defeated by a battle power of 1,330, so apparently the manga also points out that his battle power was superior than that.

No, what this points is that Raditz was a weakling compared to Vegeta.

Finally, in a memo Toriyama said Raditz was stronger than a Saibaiman. So it seems everything points out that the Daizenshuu is right about Raditz's battle power.

He said that he would win against a saybamen because he was a better fighter, this doesn't mean that Raditz was over 1200, let alone 1500 which is about the same difference there was between Vegeta and Dodoria or even more.
With Raditz at 1500, Gohan couldn't even touch him, let alone inflict a severe injury that left him really weakened.

[Saiga]

Also, that 1,500 BP for Raditz didn't originate from the Daizenshuu. It originated from Jump, during the Saiyan Arc. Doesn't get much more legit than that.

[Rocketman]

And why does a statement like that have to be taken as a literal formula about strength?

BECAUSE STRENGTH DISCUSSIONS ARE SUPER IMPORTANT AND SERIOUS

Stop embarrassing me in front of the other kids, you're not my real dad.

[Kaboom]

Well... no. When Nappa fought calmly he couldn't land a hit on Goku, but Goku also couldn't land a single hit on Nappa. And when he had to stop Nappa to protect his friends, Goku needed Kaioh ken x2 in order to do it. That's not the difference between someone with 4000 and someone with 8000+ like Goku.

Nappa had quite a head start on Goku. If Goku's twice as fast as Nappa, but Nappa's already halfway to Gohan and Kuririn, then they'd reach them at the same time. Which isn't good enough, especially since Nappa was about to launch his "ultimate" ki attack at them before he even got there.

That's the same "ultimate attack," by the way, that Goku blocked quickly and easily by reflex. That doesn't seem like the kind of thing you can do against someone who's actually your equal.

Raditz saying that implies that he had more than 1300? Really? Raditz was of course below that number, otherwise, the attack wouldn't harm him.

Since when do you need to be stronger than your opponent just to hurt them at all?

Piccolo was able to hurt Nappa, despite being weaker. Goku with the basic x2 Kaio-Ken was able to hurt Vegeta, despite being weaker. Freeza at his 100% was able to hurt Super Saiyan Goku, despite being weaker. Goku was able to hurt Cell, despite being weaker. The list goes on.

He said that he would win against a saybamen because he was a better fighter, this doesn't mean that Raditz was over 1200, let alone 1500 which is about the same difference there was between Vegeta and Dodoria or even more.

No, the power of the Saibaimen is very specifically said to be what's inferior to Raditz.

http://web.archive.org/web/201106241203 ... d=manga#37

Nappa's line on the Saibaimen's strength is often translated as saying that they are "equal" to Raditz. While the verb hitteki suru can be translated as "equal", it doesn't mean equal in any sort of mathematical sense, but just that something is roughly on par with something else. In his memo to the anime staff published in the DragonBall Z Anime Special, Toriyama confirmed that the Saibaimen's battle power is inferior to Radtiz's, saying "But their battle power is considerably high, at a level slightly inferior to Raditz" (しかし戦闘力はかなり高くラディッツより少し劣る程度). Also, Nappa mentions that the Saibaimen rival Raditz "going just by power", so it seems that Raditz's greater intelligence gives him something of an edge over the Saibaimen, who are barely smart enough to follow simple orders.

They "rival" Raditz in power, but they're not equal. 1200 to 1500 is close enough, other battle elements aside, to "rival" someone. We see the same relative difference between 100% Freeza and Super Saiyan Goku later, and it was a very fierce and closely-matched fight.

With Raditz at 1500, Gohan couldn't even touch him, let alone inflict a severe injury that left him really weakened.

Apparently, yes he can.

[Fox666]

Well... no. When Nappa fought calmly he couldn't land a hit on Goku, but Goku also couldn't land a single hit on Nappa. And when he had to stop Nappa to protect his friends, Goku needed Kaioh ken x2 in order to do it. That's not the difference between someone with 4000 and someone with 8000+ like Goku.

When Nappa attacked Goku and his battle power was still at 5,000 or slight over, he couldn't see his movements. So it seems Nappa is below 5,000 in the manga too.

Raditz saying that implies that he had more than 1300? Really? Raditz was of course below that number, otherwise, the attack wouldn't harm him.

Was Raditz supposed to be invulnerable to attacks of someone slightly inferior to him? Gohan is close to him, that's why he was injuried but survived. Isn't that simply?

No, what this points is that Raditz was a weakling compared to Vegeta.

Vegeta specifically mentioned the battle power of Gohan or the Makankosappo, I think it's quite obvious that he was comparing Raditz to those.

He said that he would win against a saybamen because he was a better fighter, this doesn't mean that Raditz was over 1200, let alone 1500 which is about the same difference there was between Vegeta and Dodoria or even more.
With Raditz at 1500, Gohan couldn't even touch him, let alone inflict a severe injury that left him really weakened.

Like Kaboon posted, Toriyama actually mentioned battle power.

[freezamite]

Nappa had quite a head start on Goku. If Goku's twice as fast as Nappa, but Nappa's already halfway to Gohan and Kuririn, then they'd reach them at the same time. Which isn't good enough, especially since Nappa was about to launch his "ultimate" ki attack at them before he even got there.

You just have to look at chapter 216, and then tell me that the difference between Goku and Nappa doubles the one between Vegeta and Kiwi. It doesn't have any sense.

The "problem" with Nappa is that his fight has two parts. The first one, when Goku surpasses him completely, and were the difference is huge (Goku stopping Nappa's energy attack with only a ki wave) and the second one, with nappa calmed, which was pretty even. It didn't last that much because Vegeta didn't have enough patience, but then you have to consider that Nappa had been fighting for a long time and he also had been injured before, so I think that a calmed Nappa without injuries has to have a power battle of at least 8.000

That's the same "ultimate attack," by the way, that Goku blocked quickly and easily by reflex. That doesn't seem like the kind of thing you can do against someone who's actually your equal.

Goku was a bit stronger, but Nappa wasn't at his top condition either, so you have to take that into account. Furthermore, Goku had to use his best technique to counter Nappa's ultimate attack, so it's not like if he returned the blast with a punch or a kick like Freezer does to Vegeta (this was a 2x difference aproximately).

Another example, Goku's Kaioh Ken x3, which put him at 21.000+ gave him an advantage over Vegeta, and the difference was much lower than 2x. In fact, having 10% more power battle than your enemy grants you victory if you attack at full force.

Since when do you need to be stronger than your opponent just to hurt them at all?

With an attack like the one Gohan did against him? If he had 1500, the difference between him and Gohan in power would be as big as the one between Vegeta and Dodoria. And not only that, Gohan didn't have anything except for his brute force to attack raditz. I mean, if an experienced fighter like Dodoria lost without any chance of winning in front of Vegeta, do you really think that something as plain and direct like a tackle could deal the huge amount of damage it did to Raditz? It's completely impossible.

Piccolo was able to hurt Nappa, despite being weaker.

Yes, only when he attacked Nappa from behind and using a ki blast, which surely had some concentrated ki in it. And the damage he did to Nappa wasn't comparable to the damage that Gohan inflicted to Raditz. Man, Raditz was barely able to stand on foot after that attack, and an injured Goku with multiple broken bones who had 3 times less power than him when healed (imagine how big the difference would be between Goku and Raditz if the injure hadn't been as big as it was) could hold him for a while.

Goku with the basic x2 Kaio-Ken was able to hurt Vegeta, despite being weaker.

Yes, the difference between Goku Kaioh Ken x2 (16.000-17.000) and Vegeta (18.000) was waaaaaay smaller (proportionally) to the one that would be between Raditz and Gohan if he had 1500.
And even being Goku much closer to the 18.000 units Vegeta had, his attacks were really harmless compared to the near one hit ko gohan connected on Raditz.

Freeza at his 100% was able to hurt Super Saiyan Goku, despite being weaker.

Freezer 100% was at least as strong as Goku SSJ, or even a bit stronger. The fact that he got tired really fast doesn't mean that his peak power was at the same level of the SSJ.

Goku was able to hurt Cell, despite being weaker.

Cell hid his power in order to put himself at the same level of Goku, so it's an invalid example. If he had used all his power against the sayan, Goku would have been killed without harming Cell at all.
Look at the difference between Cell and SSJ Gohan, and Gohan had more power than Goku (and Cell was still hiding part of his power!).

No, the power of the Saibaimen is very specifically said to be what's inferior to Raditz.

http://web.archive.org/web/201106241203 ... d=manga#37
Nappa's line on the Saibaimen's strength is often translated as saying that they are "equal" to Raditz. While the verb hitteki suru can be translated as "equal", it doesn't mean equal in any sort of mathematical sense, but just that something is roughly on par with something else. In his memo to the anime staff published in the DragonBall Z Anime Special, Toriyama confirmed that the Saibaimen's battle power is inferior to Radtiz's, saying "But their battle power is considerably high, at a level slightly inferior to Raditz" (しかし戦闘力はかなり高くラディッツより少し劣る程度). Also, Nappa mentions that the Saibaimen rival Raditz "going just by power", so it seems that Raditz's greater intelligence gives him something of an edge over the Saibaimen, who are barely smart enough to follow simple orders.

Well you're right about what Toriyama said in that interview, but not on translating this statement into power units. Being at a level slightly inferior to Raditz can't translate into being strong enough to kill them in a single punch.
That would put Raditz power at 1210 or 1220 at best, but not more.

We see the same relative difference between 100% Freeza and Super Saiyan Goku later, and it was a very fierce and closely-matched fight.

You repeat this statement lot's of times, but this numbers were also taken from this Guide, and as you will understand, numbers from a Guide can't be used to prove something if what we are debating is this guide was wrong or not.
It's like using the Bible to demonstrate that god exists.

We have to look at facts, and the fact was that Gohan's single attack, with a power of 1308, left Raditz really injured. Then we have other fights, like Goku's kaioh ken x2 vs Vegeta or Vegeta vs Dodoria that demonstrates that if Raditz had a power of 1500, he wouldn't had any problem in dealing with Gohan.

When Nappa attacked Goku and his battle power was still at 5,000 or slight over, he couldn't see his movements. So it seems Nappa is below 5,000 in the manga too.

As I said before, Nappa wasn't fighting calmed here. Saying that Nappa had 4000 because of that is like saying that Goku SSJ Full power had less power than #16 because he couldn't beat the androids before controlling the SSJ form.
Chapter 216, with Goku at over 8000, and then tell me if Nappa was still at 4.000 or not.

Was Raditz supposed to be invulnerable to attacks of someone slightly inferior to him? Gohan is close to him, that's why he was injuried but survived. Isn't that simply?

Slightly? Difference between 1308 and 1500 (1500 is a 14.8% than 1500) is greater than the one between Goku KKx2 and Vegeta (Goku being at 8000+ implies having more than 16000 (let's put 16200 as a really low minimum). 18000 is only 11.1% more than 16200). The difference between Vegeta and Goku KK2 was smaller than the edge you give Raditz over Gohan, yet Goku with KKx2 and being really good at fighting couldn't deal Vegeta any significant damage, while Gohan could nearly ko raditz in a single hit?

Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense!

Vegeta specifically mentioned the battle power of Gohan or the Makankosappo, I think it's quite obvious that he was comparing Raditz to those.

Of course, and also to himself. If he had less than 1000, then he wouldn't say that Raditz is pitiful because he lost against someone with 1000, its something obvious.

Like Kaboon posted, Toriyama actually mentioned battle power.

Yes, and it was right in that fact, but translating "slightly more powerful" into a difference that would give him an edge over Gohan of nearly 15% more power, and 25% more power against the saybamen is a big mistake. Slightly means slightly, and even Toriyama said that more than the difference in power, what would give Raditz an edge is being more intelligent and being better at fighting.
Gohan didn't know how to fight at all, he only charged against Raditz, and you're telling me that he couldn't counter something that simple even when he had more power in his favour than Vegeta had against Goku KKx2?
And even assuming Raditz is this bad at fighting, would a hit like this do that much damage to Raditz if he really was that strong? Why was he afraid of Piccolo having an attack of 1330 units of power if he was stronger even without concentrating his ki in one point of his body? (he even didn't know how to do that).

[Kaboom]

...I give up.

[freezamite]

...I give up.

Well then, yes, if it makes you happy I admit you're right. Nappa had only half the strength of Goku and chapter 226 of the manga never existed at all.
Ah, and Raditz was 1500 of course, and Gohan's attack at 1308 let him as injured as Goku was but this doesn't contradict anything. In fact, Dodoria could have killed Vegeta in one hit but he didn't because at the very bottom of his heart he was in love with the saiyan.

But yes, you're right

[Fox666]

Didn't Kiew said that even if Vegeta got stronger he couldn't possible survive his attack?

As I said before, Nappa wasn't fighting calmed here. Saying that Nappa had 4000 because of that is like saying that Goku SSJ Full power had less power than #16 because he couldn't beat the androids before controlling the SSJ form.
Chapter 216, with Goku at over 8000, and then tell me if Nappa was still at 4.000 or not.

Nappa was still below 5,000 as the manga implies because his battle power won't change.

Slightly? Difference between 1308 and 1500 (1500 is a 14.8% than 1500) is greater than the one between Goku KKx2 and Vegeta (Goku being at 8000+ implies having more than 16000 (let's put 16200 as a really low minimum). 18000 is only 11.1% more than 16200). The difference between Vegeta and Goku KK2 was smaller than the edge you give Raditz over Gohan, yet Goku with KKx2 and being really good at fighting couldn't deal Vegeta any significant damage, while Gohan could nearly ko raditz in a single hit?

Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense!

That sort of "equation" to determine the outcome of a battle has never been used in the series. Not to mention that overall the series is inconsistent in these terms.

Yes, and it was right in that fact, but translating "slightly more powerful" into a difference that would give him an edge over Gohan of nearly 15% more power, and 25% more power against the saybamen is a big mistake. Slightly means slightly

There is no definition of "how much is slight", it's entirely subjectile. And I just posted a panel of the manga which Vegeta says 1,330 is "slightly over 1,000 at most".

and even Toriyama said that more than the difference in power, what would give Raditz an edge is being more intelligent and being better at fighting.

That's not something "Toriyama said", you seems to be misunderstand something you have read in the website Battle Power Guide.

[freezamite]

Didn't Kiew said that even if Vegeta got stronger he couldn't possible survive his attack?

A ki blast can kill someone stronger because it's a ki concentration. Piccolo with 400 of power could concentrate enough ki into one attack to give it a power of 1300. Now, we don't know how strong were kiwi's attacks or if what he said was only a bluff or if he was simply wrong.
But what is true for sure is that if the concentrated power is still inferior to the power of the warrior you are fighting, what happens is what we see when Freezer fought Vegeta, or Gohan. He was strong enough to deflect those attacks with pure strength.

Gohan at 1300, in no way he should be able to harm Raditz to the point it did if he was 1500, and even less considering it was a frontal tackle and not a surprise attack from behind or something that could surprise Raditz. It was pure strength what knocked out Raditz.

Nappa was still below 5,000 as the manga implies because his battle power won't change.

No, Nappa's power of course can change. He can't manipulate it at will, but if Nappa gets injured, his power diminishes, and the same if he fight recklessly.
Having the spirit calmed and controlling your own ki are KEY elements in Dragon Ball (Toriyama himself confirmed that in an interview). SSJs are an example of that, and the same applies to Nappa.

That sort of "equation" to determine the outcome of a battle has never been used in the series. Not to mention that overall the series is inconsistent in these terms.

The consistence may not be mathematically accurate as if exactly 10.001%, but accurate enough that those kind of differences in power affected always the same way they had.
Point me an example that contradicts those numbers, because I pointed several examples that contradicts yours.

There is no definition of "how much is slight", it's entirely subjectile. And I just posted a panel of the manga which Vegeta says 1,330 is "slightly over 1,000 at most".

And as subjective as it can be, if we see someone with a power of 18000 completely surpassing someone with more than 16000, then we can start to determine what is slightly in terms of Dragon Ball or not.
It may seem slight to you, but if it's enough to kill someone with just one blow, then in no way this is a slight difference in the manga's scale of power.

That's not something "Toriyama said", you seems to be misunderstand something you have read in the website Battle Power Guide.

Yes, I read it too fast. But again, if lower difference in power than that translated in huge wins in favour of the stronger, how can make any sense that in that fight someone much weaker nearly inflicted so much damage in someone much stronger?
It completely contradicts the manga!!!

[Kaboom]

"Higher battle power" does not automatically mean "immunity to all damage." Gohan at 1300-ish is perfectly capable of hurting Raditz at 1500. Nappa at 4000 almost hurt Goku with his "ultimate attack." Freeza at 120 million was able to put some serious hurt on Goku at 150 million. Super Saiyan Goku was able to beat around and wear down Cell who was "one step ahead of him" their whole battle. Cry foul on these particular examples all you want, but they still hold more weight as evidence than anything you've insisted upon.

These battles and comparisons of numbers do not negate other battles at similar comparative strengths that played out differently, like Vegeta's shut-out wins over Kwi, Dodoria, or Zarbon. Even if the outcome of a fight typically boils down to who's got the higher power level, there's a million different ways the battle could play out to reach that outcome. There are no "rules" for how big or small of a power gap you need to have for these things. Power levels are not nearly so precise a science, and there are a wealth of other factors that play into the events of a fight. Which is why figures like 4000 for Nappa and 1500 for Raditz, like it or not, work perfectly fine.

The core problem with your approach here, freezamite, is the old pitfall of "numbers determine everything." But they don't. They don't. One more time: They don't. Dragon Ball is a fantasy-action series, not just one big math equation. Until you realize that and outgrow that flawed and excessively strict non-logic, it's going to be hard for anyone to see any value in discussing these things with you.

I think we're getting a bit too off-topic, anyway. This thread does have a bad tendency to stray too far away from its original "Character Vs Character" purpose. This post is the last one I'll make on this subject. After this I'm in 100% "Mod Mode."

[Gonstead]

@freezamite Raditz was simply in shock at the sight of Gohan and the power he was displaying, he was too stunned to put up his guard to defend himself which resulted in him taking more damage than he did if he did block.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

SS3 Goku vs Si Xing Long (First Form)

It's GT Goku, but with a dead, adult body, and they are fighting in the After Life.

Oh, and the whole GT logic "Only Goku can win because GT" doesn't count. Don't even bother to make such comments.

[Rocketman]

Goku loses because GT. He has to power up to base first.