Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[Gokuden]

I like this guy's video on this battle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYX8LKgmAeo

That was a really good vid, thanks for the link.

[Bussani]

Before I start I'm a big fan of both Goku and Superman...
Goku was beaten. That is fair enough.
Now lets see a Japanese take on it.
We all know who would win if they had a crack at this death battle concept.

Sorry if I'm interpreting this wrong, but are you saying Superman only won because Screwattack is an American site?

This fight would never take place anyway if they met each other and certainly not to the death.

Also Vegeta would get involved before Superman could potentially kill Goku anyway!
Only he can be the one to defeat Kakarot! In fact that should have happened and then we could have seen a fusion!

That's not how Death Battle works. I think the rules are right there in the video. No outside interference, and no, "We're not going to fight because we're good guys." For the purpose of the comparison, they fight, they fight one on one, and they use practically every weapon, power up, and ability they have available.

Since when does Goku automatically assume that someone will destroy the planet?
He's always expecting people not to be evil at their core.

I think they were just having fun there since the TFS cast were providing the voices.

I have a big issue with Goku starting the fight too. Has he ever blasted someone he doesn't know with KI at random to provoke a fight before?

Not exactly, but he did shoot a ki blast at the Elder Kaioshin to test how amazing he was, and he did blast Uub with insults to get him to fight. Again, the purpose of Death Battle is to have a Death Battle, and since Superman would never agree to it and would never give in to insults, I suppose it had to start somehow. Not entirely realistic, but like others have said, the video of the fight itself is really just for entertainment purposes; the outcome had already been decided based on the research.

I don't understand where they are getting all these numbers from for strength multipliers for Goku and his forms either. Surely they didn't come from here?

All except Super Saiyan 4 came from here (the multipliers for Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, and Super Saiyan 3 are from the Super Exciting Guides (although Super Saiyan 1's was revealed far earlier than that in the Daizenshuu)), but our research probably lead to their decision for Super Saiyan 4, too.

Obviously they used Super Saiyan 4 for dramatic reasons but why use that and then disregard the rest of GT?
If they wanted to they could have used the almost demi God Goku from the end of GT.

And if they wanted to, they could have used blue star Superman, or Superman One Million, or pre-crisis Superman. The video itself explained why they didn't use these or "demi God Goku"--whom we don't even know anything about, frankly.

I dont agree with the power scaling of the fight. Superman with little noticeable effort goes from having trouble with SSJ Goku to fighting evenly with SSJ4. Rule of cool wins here- they wanted to showcase Goku's forms. By rights, if they wanted to assume full-powered modern Superman = SSJ4 scale, then Goku should have started the fight at SSJ2 or 3.

They did explain that Superman holds himself back a lot. This portrayal of him felt pretty normal to me.

[Sinestro]

Guys and gals, OF COURSE these two would never fight.

But then you couldn't have this fight.

I still think no reason given would be better than a half-assed one.

Way I see it, it was a tribute to both Goku and comics in general.

it's ridiculously easy in comics to get heroes to fight each other, through a "misunderstanding" or something. And sometimes, not even that.

And Goku's just Goku.

[Onikage725]

Bag, I messed this post up. Ignore.

[Hellspawn28]

It seems like the snake way feat is the thing that people are the most upset the most. I feel like it works since it's Goku's best speed feat and Goku does not have many outside of power scaling. Most DB characters to be honest don't have many feats which is why we use ABC logic to judge them.

[Sunlight & City Night]

Before I start I'm a big fan of both Goku and Superman...
Goku was beaten. That is fair enough.
Now lets see a Japanese take on it.
We all know who would win if they had a crack at this death battle concept.

Sorry if I'm interpreting this wrong, but are you saying Superman only won because Screwattack is an American site?

Not exacly. That would be a rather absurd thing to say as not only Americans contribute to the site.
I'm just curious to know how the Japanese would treat such a concept.
I believe they would probably see Goku pick up the victory.
At the risk of stating the obvious these two are icons from different cultures.
Nobody is ever going to be satified with the outcome either way.

Call me thick if you must but I'm still not buying all the psudo math they used to try and work out Gokus Ki. The multipliers? Fair enough but working out actual metric tonnes he can lift or whatever? Come on!
Someone else said that Ki cannot really be numbered as it's a metaphysical concept.

By doing all that number crunching on Goku haven't they done exacly the same as the scouters in the show and just measured what they can see?
I know that's all they have to go on but I just kinda though that was a bit little funny.

The argument will rage forever on all the same.
Screwattacks video has probably just kicked a hornets nest if Youtube is anything to go by.

[dario03]

It seems like the snake way feat is the thing that people are the most upset the most. I feel like it works since it's Goku's best speed feat and Goku does not have many outside of power scaling. Most DB characters to be honest don't have many feats which is why we use ABC logic to judge them.

Yeah theres no way they could ever get a accurate speed for DBZ. But even though there has been stated speeds for Superman you could argue that Superman should of been much faster to since theres a time where he went from around Pluto to Earth (~5 light hours) in ~30 seconds and another time where he went from the Vega system to Earth (~25 light years) in ~a minute or two. But I think they didn't use those since theres some unknowns like the times that I posted are just guesses based on how little happens during the trip and for Vega its possible that maybe he had help (theres nothing saying that but theres nothing saying he didn't either).

[Gyt Kaliba]

So, how likely is it that this will hit Youtube, outside of someone outside of ScrewAttack themselves ripping it and tossing it up? I've noticed from poking around that it doesn't seem like they toss up full versions of them on Youtube usually (all of the other ones I saw had text saying 'See the full version at ScrewAttack' anywya), so that has me concerned. Try as I might, I can't get the thing to load over on their main site.

[TonyTheTiger]

There's just a frame of reference problem for Goku. Superman often faces off against things we can measure, like supernovas or real world distances like the Earth to the Sun. Goku mostly faces off against other people. So it's hard to establish how strong or fast he is when the only frame of reference is some other character...who's only frame of reference is Goku. "Goku is stronger than Freeza." "Well how strong is Freeza?" "Uh...weaker than Goku." But it's not like they didn't try. Holy shit did they try. That's why I find it somewhat offensive that there are so many accusations against Ben and Chad for things like bias or poor research. Not to mention the implied insult toward Kanzenshuu, Dao of Dragon Ball, Superman Home Page, and Superman Super Site that comes with such an accusation.

The comments on ScrewAttack alone are ridiculous.
Average Goku supporter pre-video: Goku is much stronger than Superman.
Average Goku supporter post-video: Superman is overpowered!

[GS7X7]

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Power_Levels

How accurate are these levels?

Also, on another board (Dao blog) someone noted that Vegeta has at least the bare minimum strength needed to blow up the earth.

If 18,000 is the bare minimum needed to blow up the earth, then is there anyway to calculate the "necessary power level" for a character to be able to kill Superman with an energy beam attack?

[Saiga]

So, how likely is it that this will hit Youtube, outside of someone outside of ScrewAttack themselves ripping it and tossing it up? I've noticed from poking around that it doesn't seem like they toss up full versions of them on Youtube usually (all of the other ones I saw had text saying 'See the full version at ScrewAttack' anywya), so that has me concerned. Try as I might, I can't get the thing to load over on their main site.

It's already on Youtube. Here.

[dario03]

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Power_Levels

How accurate are these levels?

Also, on another board (Dao blog) someone noted that Vegeta has at least the bare minimum strength needed to blow up the earth.

If 18,000 is the bare minimum needed to blow up the earth, then is there anyway to calculate the "necessary power level" for a character to be able to kill Superman with an energy beam attack?

Theres a lot of right numbers in that list but a lot of others that don't say where they come from and looked to be made up or from odd sources like video games.

No, theres no way you could figure out a power level needed to kill Superman. Well I guess you could but you would have to use a lot of assumptions.

[Gyt Kaliba]

So, how likely is it that this will hit Youtube, outside of someone outside of ScrewAttack themselves ripping it and tossing it up? I've noticed from poking around that it doesn't seem like they toss up full versions of them on Youtube usually (all of the other ones I saw had text saying 'See the full version at ScrewAttack' anywya), so that has me concerned. Try as I might, I can't get the thing to load over on their main site.

It's already on Youtube. Here.

What the heck? It wasn't showing up when I put the title into the search bar on Youtube, and I know I checked just earlier today.

Ah well, thanks for the link! This should be good.

[Saiga]

I'm watching it right now, and I have to say I really disagree with the way they describe battle powers/power levels. Just because a small group of fighters were able to trick the devices for measuring it doesn't make the entire concept meaningless.

[Bussani]

If 18,000 is the bare minimum needed to blow up the earth, then is there anyway to calculate the "necessary power level" for a character to be able to kill Superman with an energy beam attack?

You could try, with enough assumptions. For instance, if 18,000 really is enough to blow up the Earth, then going by the numbers they came up with for Superman's durability, you'd need more than 450 billion times as much power to do anything significant to Superman. Assuming battle powers increase linearly with energy like this, that would require a battle power of at least... ... ...what comes after a trillion? Ah, eight quadrillion (8,000,000,000,000,000).

Of course, they avoided power scaling and relying on battle powers like this for a reason. Battle powers aren't very consistent. I mean, if Roshi could blow up the Moon with a battle power of 139-180, linear power scaling would tell us that the farmer with shotgun had enough power to produce an explosion 18.5 billion times larger than the strongest nuclear bomb ever devised by man.

Not exacly. That would be a rather absurd thing to say as not only Americans contribute to the site.
I'm just curious to know how the Japanese would treat such a concept.
I believe they would probably see Goku pick up the victory.

Mmmm...fair enough.

Call me thick if you must but I'm still not buying all the psudo math they used to try and work out Gokus Ki. The multipliers? Fair enough but working out actual metric tonnes he can lift or whatever? Come on!

To be fair, the manga does show us roughly how much Goku can lift right towards the end of the story. If anything I'd expect his lifting power to increase less than his battle power multiplies when he transforms, though, so I think the numbers they ended up with may have been a very high estimate. Honestly, though, I don't particularly agree with the way they calculated Goku's numbers either. But even so, I agree with their actual conclusion.

Someone else said that Ki cannot really be numbered as it's a metaphysical concept.

I'm with Saiga in that I'm not sure I can believe that. Metaphysical concept or not, ki in Dragon Ball has obvious limits. One ki blast may not be able to level a mountain, while a bigger ki blast can. You can definitely attach numbers to that. However, whether those numbers work linearly or not could be another matter, which could complicate things.

[Master Turbo]

There's just a frame of reference problem for Goku. Superman often faces off against things we can measure, like supernovas or real world distances like the Earth to the Sun. Goku mostly faces off against other people. So it's hard to establish how strong or fast he is when the only frame of reference is some other character...who's only frame of reference is Goku. "Goku is stronger than Freeza." "Well how strong is Freeza?" "Uh...weaker than Goku." But it's not like they didn't try. Holy shit did they try. That's why I find it somewhat offensive that there are so many accusations against Ben and Chad for things like bias or poor research. Not to mention the implied insult toward Kanzenshuu, Dao of Dragon Ball, Superman Home Page, and Superman Super Site that comes with such an accusation.

The comments on ScrewAttack alone are ridiculous.
Average Goku supporter pre-video: Goku is much stronger than Superman.
Average Goku supporter post-video: Superman is overpowered!

You know there is this poster from Gamefaqs that worked out certain speed measurements I have used before on this very site, here is the same one using the power scale method together with Deathbattle's research to see if it gives Goku a better fighting chance. Seems kind of interesting to think about.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000113- ... /730800201

Some fans on the Internet need to chill out. I personally hate it when some DBZ fans can't get over that there are characters above DBZ. In the past 10+ years of posting on DBZ forums, I have seen fans will nit pick things to death and make up things in order for Goku to win.

My favorite is Goku/Gogeta/Vegetto vs The Beyonder (heck they usually even say it's pre-retconned Beyonder)

Beyonder wins in a landslide

Also how can they say Supes is as strong as he needs to be in the reflection and say he is consistent. That makes no sense.That is the definition of inconsistency. Hats off to an awesome Death Battle. Besides the Goku strength error (which wouldn't make a difference in the fight), and that weird Dr. Gero bomb idea which makes little sense to me since he was wrong about goku's progress, it seemed accurate.

To be fair Gero was correct about everything involving Goku up to his fight with Vegeta, after that point he stopped observing Goku. Also, for the poster wondering why they didn't use GT Goku's dimension feat, if I recall correctly it was a pocket dimension of unknown size that was already collapsing on itself before Goku blasted it or his way out of it.

[Sunlight & City Night]

I'm with Saiga in that I'm not sure I can believe that. Metaphysical concept or not, ki in Dragon Ball has obvious limits. One ki blast may not be able to level a mountain, while a bigger ki blast can. You can definitely attach numbers to that. However, whether those numbers work linearly or not could be another matter, which could complicate things.

Yeah, point taken on that. Although I will add that in Dragonball limits are always there to be broken and they are quite often.

Just one thing...I hate to use him as an example but what about Broly? His Ki seems almost out of control.
Does he ever get tired? All I remember him doing is forever powering up. Movie 8 I'm talking about specifically. Not the other two.

I guess the only character in Dragonball with real limitless power is Majin Buu.
Magic does seem to be all powerful and has pretty much no rules applied to it. Unless I'm mistaken?

Credit to Screwattack, Superman didn't like the Nyoi-bō. That was a nice little bit of detail.

[GS7X7]

"You could try, with enough assumptions. For instance, if 18,000 really is enough to blow up the Earth, then going by the numbers they came up with for Superman's durability, you'd need more than 450 billion times as much power to do anything significant to Superman. Assuming battle powers increase linearly with energy like this, that would require a battle power of at least... ... ...what comes after a trillion? Ah, eight quadrillion (8,000,000,000,000,000)."

Bleh.

I hope Future Goku comes by and whoops Superman's ass!

[Gonstead]

Broly never runs out of Ki, so he can technically stay powered up in LSSJ forever but every now and then he needs to vent some of his ki energy since it takes a toll on his body.

"My ki... is overflowing..." - He even appears out of breath, possibly in some sort of physical pain before he vents.

[Bussani]

It may be an assumption that Broly never runs out of ki. We never see him use up his stamina, though, so I guess there's no proof either way.

Although I will add that in Dragonball limits are always there to be broken and they are quite often.

Definitely. Just because someone can't blow up a mountain now doesn't mean they won't be able to with enough training, and just because someone says, "This is as strong as it's possible for a Saiyan to get," doesn't mean a Saiyan can't prove them wrong.