Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[dbzfan7]

Wow people are really stirred up by this. I think they got a few things wrong but it ain't their fault. They used their own method for Goku and you can believe or not believe it works since there is no definitive way. Doesn't mean everything would change but who knows. I just want to see Masako X do more Goku that isn't the stupid dumbed down version on TFS. I loved his take on SSJ4, much better then on the msdbzbabe video. He currently rivals Schemmel as my favourite english Goku.

[hulkty]

Wow people are really stirred up by this. I think they got a few things wrong but it ain't their fault. They used their own method for Goku and you can believe or not believe it works since there is no definitive way. Doesn't mean everything would change but who knows. I just want to see Masako X do more Goku that isn't the stupid dumbed down version on TFS. I loved his take on SSJ4, much better then on the msdbzbabe video. He currently rivals Schemmel as my favourite english Goku.

"His take on SSj4"???
So he DID change his voice a bit for it?

[dbzfan7]

Wow people are really stirred up by this. I think they got a few things wrong but it ain't their fault. They used their own method for Goku and you can believe or not believe it works since there is no definitive way. Doesn't mean everything would change but who knows. I just want to see Masako X do more Goku that isn't the stupid dumbed down version on TFS. I loved his take on SSJ4, much better then on the msdbzbabe video. He currently rivals Schemmel as my favourite english Goku.

"His take on SSj4"???
So he DID change his voice a bit for it?

He kinda did what Schemmel did, he deepened it and sounded more serious. Except for when his voiced cracked at the big attack before the finale, I loved every second he talked in SSJ4.

[GS7X7]

I remember PN.com's boards once did a big debate on a Supes vs. Goku fight.

They ultimately determined that Goku would win because of his ability to form ki attacks and that Superman's "lack of defense against ki" would make him vulnerable to such attacks.

Obviously they were Goku-biased but, I'd love to be able to read that discussion again.

[Rory]

I don't know much about Superman (and what little I do know points in the direction of him winning), but I didn't really... feel Gokuh in this fight. It seemed like they used personality traits where they wanted to, just to sorta' say "look, we know Gokuh did this once". Gokuh took out the kryptonite to make the fight fair, however, Superman blew up the planet?
Gokuh powering up through his forms, again, not exactly what he does, it feels like Gokuh is fighting like a bit of an idiot, using all the tools at his disposal, even the useless ones which would actually put him at a knowing disadvantage (Kaioken, really?). Using items he hasn't used since they were rendered useless to him.... and wait, did he eat a senzu? I thought this was meant to be a fair fight? Moments like that took me out, but I guess it's only because I feel I know the character so well, and I was kinda' holding that against this, which is unfair of me, really.
This was a fun piece of eye candy for fans, but that's all I'll take it as. Superman as a character for me is still too inconsistent in his abilities to be fully compared to.. well, anyone. I mean, Batman took him down, while one punch from Gokuh would end Batman (even with prep time Batman would fall to Dragon Ball characters, they're too otherworldly in their strength, and their speed is too fast to keep up with).
Am I buttmad? Eh, a little. But not 'cause Gokuh lost in a fan made production, but 'cause I was prepped for some awesome legit Kanzenshuu sourced fight. While they might as well have checked out DB Wiki.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Okay, I finally got to see this video, so for my own two cents...

I actually hate to say it, but I'm forced to agree with the outcome. All the numbers they came up with, while I'm not a follower of that kind of thing even with Dragon Ball to know if they're accurate, much less with Superman - well, if they don't lie, then holy crap. Ignoring that completely, even in just the feats alone, it's a pretty devastating difference.

I think the problem a lot of DB fans have with an outcome with Superman winning - outside of downright bias to their favorite franchise - is Goku's use of ki. Since Superman doesn't really have anything truly like that, outside of the heat vision, it's harder for us outside the Superman fandom to imagine him capable of knocking away energy blasts at the level we're used to Goku putting out.

That said though, I think that Goku could, in some conceivable period of time, gain the strength to surpass Superman. Maybe. As they said, he's always overcoming his limits, so I'd like to think that eventually, he'd be able to get that strong. Unfortunately, I don't think he'd ever manage it during his lifetime. It'd have to be after years and years and years and years of training in the afterlife.

Now, all of that said...despite being completely fine with Superman losing, I think the reasons that he won only cement my dislike of the character for the most part. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing him per say, if you like Superman then all power to you. I don't expect everyone to have the same love of TMNT that I do or anything. But good lord, learning more about what all Superman can do in this video...I was aware of the insane strength and speed, and the heat rays from his eyes, but freezing breath? The ability to break the fabric of space time and such? I'm having flashbacks to Gurren Lagann, only I liked it there for some reason. The fact that Superman is completely overpowered to an insane degree just makes me facepalm.

Although, I was very happy to learn that he did, apparently, have to do some training to gain access to more of his strength. Sure, it was all there to begin with rather than him truly growing in strength, but the fact that it wasn't entirely handed to him on a silver plate, makes me feel a little better about it all.

Again, it's not that I hate Superman, before or after this. He's just not my cup of tea, and I feel that reinforced more so now due to what I just learned. But that doesn't mean I won't check out some stuff eventually. I'm really looking forward to Man of Steel after seeing it's trailer, that looks like it's going to be one hell of a good movie. And I do want to eventually get around to watching the Justice League cartoon from a handful of years ago. I do have some interest, I'm just not expecting him to grow on me a whole heck of a lot more or anything. As much as I love the Dark Knight trilogy and Batman Beyond, I wouldn't even consider calling myself a Batman fan by any means. It'll likely just be the same with Superman here.

As for the video itself, I think they did a great job on this. I especially liked the tone, it didn't take itself entirely seriously even while it provided lots of great evidence and raw facts. I'm assuming all Death Battles (I've never seen one before now) are like this, which sounds great to me. I especially enjoyed the references to TeamFourStar stuff, right down to slight cameos from other DBZ characters in their Abridged form. I'm kind of surprised they didn't do the same with some more Superman characters.

In summation, great vid, amazingly well done fight, with an ending that I can't argue with even if I'd like to. Great job, to everyone involved in making this!

[Saiga]

I know people keep saying that Superman's overpoweredness doesn't matter because his story isn't focused on fighting and whatever - but seeing some of his feats and powers really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Super intelligence? Uggh, no thanks. He's just got too much going on.

[TonyTheTiger]

The fact that Superman is completely overpowered to an insane degree just makes me facepalm.

Although, I was very happy to learn that he did, apparently, have to do some training to gain access to more of his strength. Sure, it was all there to begin with rather than him truly growing in strength, but the fact that it wasn't entirely handed to him on a silver plate, makes me feel a little better about it all.

The thing is, it makes Superman himself facepalm. He's overpowered and knows it. Batman knows it. And it's a big point of contention between the two. "Power" serves a different narrative purpose in Superman's story than it does in Dragon Ball. It's important for the story that his power is "handed to him on a silver plate" since his greatest challenge isn't how to beat down the bad guy (Goku's main challenge) but instead how not to beat down everybody.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjts1gFwbbA

I know people keep saying that Superman's overpoweredness doesn't matter because his story isn't focused on fighting and whatever - but seeing some of his feats and powers really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Super intelligence? Uggh, no thanks. He's just got too much going on.

Which is exactly the point.

The whole thing about Superman being somehow inferior because he didn't "work" for his power misses the point of the story. The entire point of Superman is that he didn't ask for any of it. The reason why Goku works for his power (which itself is a somewhat dubious claim since his genetics are the primary reason why he doesn't peak at Krillin's level) is because Dragon Ball is a story that, to some extent, follows the pattern of the hero's journey. It's a story about self improvement, adventure, and where by the end the hero grows into a stronger/wiser/better person than he was at the start.

Superman, on the other hand, is a story about right vs. wrong, heroism, and what it means to be human. Meaning that power serves a different purpose. In Dragon Ball, "power" is the endgame, the goal, the measurement of progress through the journey. In Superman, it's none of those things. In Superman, "power" is the plot device. Basically, when you're handed the powers of a god (arguably against your will), what are you going to do with them? How will you live? What is your legacy going to be? While "with great power comes great responsibility" is a Spider-Man quote, it also speaks to the core of Superman. This is why he tends to avoid fighting. Because Superman considers it irresponsible to do so, most of the time. In Dragon Ball, power is something to be earned through hard work. In Superman, power is something that must be controlled. It's for that reason that it would make no sense for Superman to train for his power like Goku does. Superman being "broken tier" is a necessary component of the story. Because it's about a man struggling with that "broken tier" power.

Goku strives to increase his power and that's how he measures himself. Superman is afraid of his power and using it responsibly is how he measures himself. That's why he studied martial arts. Not necessarily to gain power but to make himself better able to control it. For instance, training his mind? It's not about improving his skills for the sake of being a more effective warrior. It's because he feels personally responsible whenever some asshole brainwashes him and sends him out to kill Batman or something and so he takes steps to prevent it from happening. Same thing with all of his training. Basically, everything he does is based around holding back. And he works hard to do so because if he doesn't then somebody dies. Superman's philosophy would confuse Goku. "So you train in order to restrict your power? You're weird!" Imagine how Goku would react to Clark's decision to relinquish his power in Superman II. He'd think the man completely insane.

Goku sees fighting and a challenge and a source of personal growth. Superman sees it as dangerous and irresponsible, particularly for someone with as much power as he has. So it only makes sense for Superman to have his powers "given" to him. Because it's based around an "ordinary" person (farm boy Clark Kent) having all this power bestowed upon him and then being charged with using that power responsibly, which is a difficult proposition. Not because he might go all psycho (although that is also a concern), but because even if his intentions are good, he can never be quite sure where the line is between "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" and "My Truth, My Justice, and My Way."

Goku's problem is "how do I get stronger?" Superman's problem is "How do I do the right thing?" Goku wants his power. He strives to improve. Superman, arguably doesn't want his power. It's his cross to bear, a necessity within the context of the DC universe, but doesn't actually like when he has to use it.

[Saiga]

None of that means we can't dislike how overpowered he is, or dislike him for it.

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm not asking you to like him. I just hope you understand him. He's overpowered because he's meant to struggle with being overpowered. If he weren't overpowered then the story falls apart since his main motivation is no longer present.

Dragon Ball and Superman are fundamentally different stories and, as such, have different needs. For Dragon Ball to work, it needs a character who isn't invincible and must overcome his limitations. For Superman to work, it needs a character who has power beyond comprehension and strives to be responsible.

You don't have to like the story but that's how the story needs to be. He's simply not meant for vs. matches. Superman isn't built for fighting.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I get what you're saying Tony. From what little I got out of the video, I can totally see how with Superman it's an entirely different deal. Heck, even just in the fighting portion, he only fought back because Goku kept attacking him really, and that was all there was to it.

I still just can't see myself getting into him at all though. But like I said, who knows how things will change after Man of Steel. I didn't used to care about Iron Man at all, but after the movies, he's one of my favorite's.

[Saiga]

I'm not asking you to like him. I just hope you understand him. He's overpowered because he's meant to struggle with being overpowered. If he weren't overpowered then the story falls apart since his main motivation is no longer present.

Dragon Ball and Superman are fundamentally different stories and, as such, have different needs. For Dragon Ball to work, it needs a character who isn't invincible and must overcome his limitations. For Superman to work, it needs a character who has power beyond comprehension and strives to be responsible.

You don't have to like the story but that's how the story needs to be. He's simply not meant for vs. matches. Superman isn't built for fighting.

Oh, yeah, I wasn't trying to say that he didn't work in his story or anything like that. It's just that even handled well I can't like someone who's that overpowered.

[Bussani]

Again, it's not that I hate Superman, before or after this. He's just not my cup of tea, and I feel that reinforced more so now due to what I just learned.

I get what you're saying, and Tony already said everything so well that I don't really have much to add. I think the things anyone could learn from the video are the least important things about Superman as a character, but you probably already get that by now. Maybe it'll never be your thing, but you know what? I'd be interested in hearing your opinion either way if you ever do check some out.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

My only problem was with the way they got Goku strength, speed and durability, I still don't understand why they didn't say something like SSJ GT Goku is roughly equal too his Z SSJ3 self, and go on to power scale from there since they used SSJ4 they should also use GT Goku, and we pretty much know GT SSJ Goku is as strong as that. It would have made it look a lot closer too, but superman would still have definitely won.
I'm just glad they used GT! If they didn't Goku would have gotten roflstomped.

[Mewzard]

My only problem was with the way they got Goku strength, speed and durability, I still don't understand why they didn't say something like SSJ GT Goku is roughly equal too his Z SSJ3 self, and go on to power scale from there since they used SSJ4 they should also use GT Goku, and we pretty much know GT SSJ Goku is as strong as that. It would have made it look a lot closer too, but superman would still have definitely won.
I'm just glad they used GT! If they didn't Goku would have gotten roflstomped.

Well, when you think about it, it was basically just Buu Saga or End of Z Goku with SSJ4 tacked on. Full on GTku is too removed from Toriyama's original work in my mind. So, I think they made the best choice for this scenario.

[Onikage725]

So, Tony...you're saying Superman should have fought Gohan :p

They did explain that Superman holds himself back a lot. This portrayal of him felt pretty normal to me.

That's why I cited Rule of Cool. It showcased Goku's forms. From a "realistic" standpoint, Superman wouldn't indicate going all out, have trouble with SSJ, run from SSJ2 for a charge, be interrupted on such efforts, face SSJ3, unleash full power heat vision -gasp- gah! See my point tho? Each form, Goku appeared to have the upper hand. Superman appeared to need a charge, instead unleashes what their own research claims should drain him significantly. Yet he immediately matches SSJ4 blow for blow, even with the sun obscured by Goku's power up. It felt inconsistent for me, even knowing Superman.

But it was eye candy. And I don't disagree with the outcome, given that a sun-charged Kryptonian in space trumps a tired Saiyan in space.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I just realized something. goku's Ki increase cannot be proportional to gravity training. If 40 tons is the equivalent of 586x normal gravity that would mean Goku only got 5.86x stronger than himself when he arrived on Namek. Well that would put Goku's power level at 527,400 when fighting Superman which is entirely false since his power level was 3,000,000 when fighting Frieza and his power level only got bigger as the years went by. Furthermore I don't even see how they can use the gravity formula to calculate Goku's durability and Ki output when Goku is protected by Ki and uses Ki to fight. As we all know Ki and strength are not proportional so Goku's power and durability would be dependent on how much Ki he has. Power level would have to be used in this equation which means we cannot really judge Goku's durability and power or hell even speed since that too is based on Ki. I'm not saying this would change the outcome of the fight, far from it, but Goku is not as weak as Death Battle made him out to be.

[TonyTheTiger]

So, Tony...you're saying Superman should have fought Gohan :p

I don't know about "fought" but I do think the comparison to Gohan is much better. I always felt that the Superman vs. Goku thing sounded better in theory than it is in practice because of how it kind of misses the point of both characters. Not only does it make Superman seem overpowered just for the sake of winning fights but it's also not fair to Goku since it implies he is to be expected to be on the same level as someone who was deliberately designed to be overpowered. Goku is really about challenging oneself to improve (itself a good message) and if Goku were as powerful as Superman it would be impossible for that character trait to exist. So not only do people walk away from the match thinking ill of Superman, they also walk away missing the point of Goku's own journey. People want Goku to win this fight but if they got their wish then suddenly the cornerstone of his character becomes moot, which I think does a disservice to Dragon Ball.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

I said pretty much the same thing on the main page but while I'm sad to see Goku lose, but damn that was a fair analysis. I'm so happy to see Screw Attack take the information Kanzenshuu gave them seriously and do the best they could to mathematically scale Goku's power. Props to them for taking the time to put an equation together to determine Goku's speed and strength. Their equations were pretty solid, but I can't say I fully agree with the gap between the two characters. I feel like their is some room for error with their formula and I don't think they did the best job factoring in the fact that a Saiyan's power increases after each near death experience. That being said, I think they did the best they could with the resources they had. Honestly I think, blowing up earth and leaving Goku to die in space is the only way Superman could win(which is ironic, because Superman would never do that). The only place I think Goku would have an edge over Superman would be on Kai's planet and that's because I don't think King Kai has a sun.

My only gripe with the what if battle was the whole telekinesis thing, and Goku using it to get a sensu bean. I don't think that has ever happen ever and it felt weird to watch.

I'm not asking you to like him. I just hope you understand him. He's overpowered because he's meant to struggle with being overpowered. If he weren't overpowered then the story falls apart since his main motivation is no longer present.

Dragon Ball and Superman are fundamentally different stories and, as such, have different needs. For Dragon Ball to work, it needs a character who isn't invincible and must overcome his limitations. For Superman to work, it needs a character who has power beyond comprehension and strives to be responsible.

You don't have to like the story but that's how the story needs to be. He's simply not meant for vs. matches. Superman isn't built for fighting.

It's nice to see another person on this forum with a full understanding and appreciation for Superman's character.

[Hellspawn28]

Well it's Death Battle. The characters are force to kill each other at the end no matter.