Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[Saiga]

To be fair DBZ is fairly consistent with its scaling.

I wouldn't say DB is all that consistent, either. Look hard and you'll find plenty of things that don't quite add up. I've always found that thing with Goku struggling with forty tons to be a prime example. Back in the early days of DB, Taopaipai was strong enough to pick up a large stone pillar and throw it over 1,000 miles, yet Goku from the Buu saga struggles with a measly forty tons? That doesn't quite add up to me. So I am given the tough choice of either disregarding the forty tons scene and going with what I'd expect based on other evidence, or give it precedence and disregard all else... ooooor, I could take the route many fans do and create a crazy theory to try and make everything make sense! For example, I could say a "ton" in the other world is different than on Earth. Just like if I asked for a calorie, you would need to know which one I mean based on the context or by asking; it could either be a heat calorie or a food calorie which are measures of energy using the same term but quite different in amount. Likewise, a ton in the afterlife is the equivalent to over a thousand tons on Earth. There, now with my brand new baseless theory it all makes sense!

The 40 tonnes thing was explained by Goku flying while doing it, which makes it much harder.

[TheMightyOzaru]

To be fair DBZ is fairly consistent with its scaling.

I wouldn't say DB is all that consistent, either. Look hard and you'll find plenty of things that don't quite add up. I've always found that thing with Goku struggling with forty tons to be a prime example. Back in the early days of DB, Taopaipai was strong enough to pick up a large stone pillar and throw it over 1,000 miles, yet Goku from the Buu saga struggles with a measly forty tons? That doesn't quite add up to me. So I am given the tough choice of either disregarding the forty tons scene and going with what I'd expect based on other evidence, or give it precedence and disregard all else... ooooor, I could take the route many fans do and create a crazy theory to try and make everything make sense! For example, I could say a "ton" in the other world is different than on Earth. Just like if I asked for a calorie, you would need to know which one I mean based on the context or by asking; it could either be a heat calorie or a food calorie which are measures of energy using the same term but quite different in amount. Likewise, a ton in the afterlife is the equivalent to over a thousand tons on Earth. There, now with my brand new baseless theory it all makes sense!

Oh Iv'e looked into it. Tao Pai Pai's feat can easily be explained with Ki. Tao Pai Pai uses Ki to force the object forward when he throws it and uses Ki to prevent any equal reaction it would have on his arm. Furthermore training with weights is much harder than lifting weights.

[Mewzard]

To be fair DBZ is fairly consistent with its scaling.

I wouldn't say DB is all that consistent, either. Look hard and you'll find plenty of things that don't quite add up. I've always found that thing with Goku struggling with forty tons to be a prime example. Back in the early days of DB, Taopaipai was strong enough to pick up a large stone pillar and throw it over 1,000 miles, yet Goku from the Buu saga struggles with a measly forty tons? That doesn't quite add up to me. So I am given the tough choice of either disregarding the forty tons scene and going with what I'd expect based on other evidence, or give it precedence and disregard all else... ooooor, I could take the route many fans do and create a crazy theory to try and make everything make sense! For example, I could say a "ton" in the other world is different than on Earth. Just like if I asked for a calorie, you would need to know which one I mean based on the context or by asking; it could either be a heat calorie or a food calorie which are measures of energy using the same term but quite different in amount. Likewise, a ton in the afterlife is the equivalent to over a thousand tons on Earth. There, now with my brand new baseless theory it all makes sense!

The 40 tonnes thing was explained by Goku flying while doing it, which makes it much harder.

Yeah, even with multiple power ups, Supes has flown with some heavy stuff casually:



And his strength?



Crazy strength:



Also, because I found it:



Quite the bit of heat vision.

Goku might have been able to continue going to higher levels had Toriyama continued, but we'll never know.

[Saiga]

I'm not talking about Superman at all. His flight isn't bukujutsu anyway.

[Mewzard]

I know, I was just saying even factoring that it was a flight feat, Supes had less trouble with such things. And yeah, but Supes still drains energy to fly. Most of his various powers all come from the same source. Goku has Ki, Superman has solar energy.

[Saiga]

But that's still irrelevant to what I was talking about... I was just addressing that it wasn't inconsistent for Goku to struggle with 40 tonnes when Tao Pai Pai could throw the pillar.

[Bussani]

I feel like Goku could have used instant transmission to take Superman to another part (any part) of the universe where there wasn't a yellow sun (or the yellow sun's influence was so far away and weak) that he would have been able to destroy Superman there.

Not only do Superman's powers last for quite a while without the Sun, Goku can't teleport anywhere there isn't a ki he can sense. You can probably count the places he could go on a single hand--and one of those places has dozens of stars.

Goku can both survive and output 34,700,000,000,000,000,000,000 MT. That's about 654,717 times the power it would take to destroy the Earth. The sun is only about 332,946 Earth masses. That means they calculated Goku able to blow up the Sun twice over.

That's actually a lot less than the energy needed to blow up the Sun. You can't work out how hard it is to blow up a celestial body using mass alone; you need to know its gravitational binding energy, which, in simple terms, is a product of mass and radius.

[Onikage725]

I feel like Goku could have used instant transmission to take Superman to another part (any part) of the universe where there wasn't a yellow sun (or the yellow sun's influence was so far away and weak) that he would have been able to destroy Superman there.

Not at all. Unless you physically put Superman into a red sun, his personal reserves will hold out for some time. I think I read on the wiki once that locked away from the sun's rays, he could bench press the Earth's relative weight in tons for something like 5 days STRAIGHT.

That's just it, he wasn't having the troubles you thought he was. He initially struggled with SSJ because he didn't expect his foe to suddenly jump 50 times in power. He was still fighting at a lower level. Once he amped his game up, he was making SSJ Goku seem pathetic (casually walking up to where he'd be and back handing him aside, moving so fast, Goku couldn't follow, then doing the old car smash). Once Goku went SSJ2, Superman was still winning, as he was less surprised, and the jump wasn't as big. He casually heat visioned his ki blasts away, and smacked him aside with a street light.

It was only after Goku whipped out his magic stick that Supes got damaged back, and after his comments about it being a game that Supes left. But, he wasn't going for a Sun recharge, he was flying around the planet. Perhaps to gather up speed to do an Infinite Mass Punch or something like that. He had no way of knowing Goku could teleport, but quickly took care of Goku's Power Pole. He went SSJ3, but by then, Supes expected the power jump, and matched it. The Solar Flare was a bad idea, as Supes has gone very close to the Sun in his days. Given the stats, he wouldn't have to do full powered Heat Vision to win, but it makes for a much more fun match. Then, come SSJ4, Supes is fully prepared to go full on with him, though he went through a lot of energy over the course of the fight (and the clouds would mean lessened restored energy compared to a sunny day, which is not good against a high level foe considering how much energy he burned).

We interpreted this differently. But hey, that's half the fun of these types of things. I've watched it a few times now, including ten minutes ago. To me, Superman doesn't come off as a "holds back his power" character in the sense that we see. In this fight, he held back like a Dragon Ball character holds back, power scaling when needed. Superman in his own series holds back like a guy who pulls his punches ALL the time. His speed and endurance don't typically scale down. He often moves at lower speeds, but that doesn't inhibit his ability to SEE. And Goku on quite a few occasions, outsped him. Yeah, Superman focused and caught Goku mid run, and yeah he managed to get behind him once (though let's be honest, a car would do precisely 0 damage). But just prior to that, Goku rushed Superman head first, only to move so fast Superman lost visual and missed, then turned and saw him but ate a vicious gut punch. He also got ping-ponged around the city. At Super Saiyan 3, Goku dominated him, and Superman's attempt to retaliate was blocked. Goku stopped fighting and got in close for telepathy, leaving a veryyyyy ill-advised opening which Clark exploited to great effect. It just looks to me like Goku has a speed and technique edge most of the fight, and THOSE aren't things Superman "scales down."

Again, I'm analyzing the fan-fight, not debating the actual characters. And it is nit-picking, I think the conclusions were sound. Goku is a tenacious and powerful foe, Superman wins in strength and durability. Goku's ki gives him the possible edge to secure a knock out, but the presence of a yellow sun makes that unlikely. The fight was essentially a draw until Superman took a sun-dip and blew up the planet.

I put it this way to my brother, who is VERY upset Goku lost- think of it as a tie. However...Kryptonians win ties :p

One thing to keep in mind with Supes strength (just seeing the photos posted) is that DC seems to assume there is something of a psionic field one extends. This is more or less an attempt to hand-waive the sheer impossibility for a human-sized object to lift things the size their characters do without those things simply breaking. How that applies in combat I'm not sure, but just something interesting to keep in mind.

[mattymoron]

I had always been of the opinion that Goku would win in a fight until I read Superman #13 of the current, New 52 series, which is the main continuity. He did indeed bench press the weight of the Earth for five days, without yellow sun exposure during that time, and only stopped because he had things to do, not because he was out of energy. That's 5.679 sextillion tons. That's absolutely insane. There's just no way for Goku to compete with that.

[SaiyanZ]

Not to mention New 52 Superman has tagged the friggin' Flash: http://wtfdccomics.files.wordpress.com/ ... new-52.jpg

I still think its possible for Goku to beat Post-Crisis Supes though, even if the chance is small. I just can't see Supes tanking a Kamehameha from say SSJ3 and onwards.

[Hellspawn28]

I'm surprise that the kienzan was never mention or used at all in the video.

It was:
Boomstick: "And the destructo Disc which he totally stole from Krillin..."

I forgot about that. I'm not sure how it would work on Superman. Either he would die or he would be badly hurt.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I'm surprise that the kienzan was never mention or used at all in the video.

It was:
Boomstick: "And the destructo Disc which he totally stole from Krillin..."

I forgot about that. I'm not sure how it would work on Superman. Either he would die or he would be badly hurt.

Hmm...it'd depend on how they took it, I guess. In the manga canon, it's supposed to be an unstoppable attack, that will cut you no matter how much weaker the user is than the target, right? That's what I remember hearing anyway. So if Goku actually hit him with it, then it seems like that would do the trick. To the Superman inclined here, serious question: supposing Superman got cut in half, like say at the waist level or something, would he be able to survive that? I'm thinking of something I've heard happening to Wolverine in the X-Men comics, where Hulk ripped him in half, threw the pieces miles apart, and due to his healing factor, Wolverine was still able to survive, albeit in insane pain, and eventually crawl back to his lower half and lay there while the pieces mended themselves. Would Superman be capable of something like that, or would he actually be shit out of luck in a scenario like this?

Anyway, that all supposes they took the attack as 'it cuts you no matter how strong you are'. But if they took filler into account, which they seemed to do, Cell's neck completely tanked Kuririn's own use of the attack, so it may not have done anything.

[Bussani]

In the manga canon, it's supposed to be an unstoppable attack, that will cut you no matter how much weaker the user is than the target, right? That's what I remember hearing anyway.

I think it's mostly the fact that we haven't seen it fail to cut something in the manga that makes people think this, but then again, Freeza makes the claim that his disks will cut through anything, so I suppose that gives the idea some credit.

So if Goku actually hit him with it, then it seems like that would do the trick. To the Superman inclined here, serious question: supposing Superman got cut in half, like say at the waist level or something, would he be able to survive that? I'm thinking of something I've heard happening to Wolverine in the X-Men comics, where Hulk ripped him in half, threw the pieces miles apart, and due to his healing factor, Wolverine was still able to survive, albeit in insane pain, and eventually crawl back to his lower half and lay there while the pieces mended themselves. Would Superman be capable of something like that, or would he actually be shit out of luck in a scenario like this?

I think he'd be dead. All bets are off if you stuck him back together and dumped him in the Sun, though.

Anyway, that all supposes they took the attack as 'it cuts you no matter how strong you are'. But if they took filler into account, which they seemed to do, Cell's neck completely tanked Kuririn's own use of the attack, so it may not have done anything.

Yeah, that's what I was going to bring up. Personally, I've always thought that stopping a Kienzan with your ki should be possible if you can focus enough around a single spot. It makes you wonder: could a Kienzan cut a Kienzan?

[Gonstead]

It makes you wonder: could a Kienzan cut a Kienzan?

They would probably cancel each other out when they impact, at least how I see it would happen.

[SaiyanZ]

When Cell first showed up in his Perfect Form, didn't he take Krillin's Kienzan/Destructo Disc when it was aimed at his neck? Or was that anime only?

[Bussani]

Or was that anime only?

Yeah, it was. Like I said, the Kienzan's never failed to cut anything in the manga.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I think it's mostly the fact that we haven't seen it fail to cut something in the manga that makes people think this, but then again, Freeza makes the claim that his disks will cut through anything, so I suppose that gives the idea some credit.

Ohh, okay. So it's not really a stated, definite fact that it will cut anything, it's just kind of a major assumption based on what we see and know then.

I think he'd be dead. All bets are off if you stuck him back together and dumped him in the Sun, though.

That's what I figured, since the video didn't really mention him having a healing factor of any kind, just that he was insanely tough. Though, you would think that that means he does heal faster when actually hurt, especially if he can get to those solar rays, or whatever. Still though, pulling off what Wolverine did...that's something almost as insane as Superman's strength.

And yet, I do like Wolverine. Yeesh, I really am a hypocrite.

Yeah, that's what I was going to bring up. Personally, I've always thought that stopping a Kienzan with your ki should be possible if you can focus enough around a single spot. It makes you wonder: could a Kienzan cut a Kienzan?

They would probably cancel each other out when they impact, at least how I see it would happen.

Hmm...I'm gonna have to side with Gonstead here. Either that or they'd like, deflect off of each other, and ricochet in completely different directions, or something.

When Cell first showed up in his Perfect Form, didn't he take Krillin's Kienzan/Destructo Disc when it was aimed at his neck? Or was that anime only?

Yup, that's the instance I was talking about, and it was anime only.

Although...hmm. Wasn't Goku's use of the technique filler as well? And is it even really ever stated that it even was the kienzan? Couldn't it just be a disc shaped energy blast that he used, modeled after it, or...something?

Also, now that you made me think about it Bussani...do you think the kienzan could cut the katchin stuff that broke the Z Sword? Or would it's 'cut anything' power, if it even does have that, only apply to living beings, any of which would (barring ki) be much softer than that?

[songohan619]

Perhaps the Kienzan can only cut those who do not know what the Kienzan can do, or that they are about to be cut in half? For example, Nappa did not know what the Kienzan could do, and therefore got a cut on his face. Freeza did not know that the attack he threw would come back at him, but Cell, with Kuririn and Freeza`s Cells, could stop the Kienzan since he knew what it was.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Perhaps the Kienzan can only cut those who do not know what the Kienzan can do, or that they are about to be cut in half? For example, Nappa did not know what the Kienzan could do, and therefore got a cut on his face. Freeza did not know that the attack he threw would come back at him, but Cell, with Kuririn and Freeza`s Cells, could stop the Kienzan since he knew what it was.

Hmm...I dunno. That seems a little abstract to me. But anything's possible, so I can't really rule it out either.

If that's the case though, other than maybe just to mess with them, why would Cell even bother to make it a point to block it though? It's not like he couldn't just regenerate it. Though, that does seem to come at the cost of some energy, so maybe he didn't want to waste it since he was about to fight Vegeta again, who despite being highly outclassed, did manage some pretty big damage at one point.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I guess they didn't use the Kienzan. because, since they take the anime into account as well, they couldn't be sure if it would cut Superman.