Cell a Solar System Buster ?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Everything else aside, the single biggest reason I don't buy it:

The Earth is completely unaffected by Cell's Kamehameha. And Gohan matches it. There's supposedly enough energy there to destroy the entire solar system twice over...and it does less damage to the area than an atomic bomb would.

Here is the thing. Ki would obviously have to be manipulated to destroy the system. Gohan wasnt manipulating his Ki to destroy a Solar System just the ass hole that killed his father.

[Perfect]

Everything else aside, the single biggest reason I don't buy it:

The Earth is completely unaffected by Cell's Kamehameha. And Gohan matches it. There's supposedly enough energy there to destroy the entire solar system twice over...and it does less damage to the area than an atomic bomb would.

Twice over? I thought he only said enough to wipe it out, interesting. In the anime at least, the Earth rattles like a baby playing with a toy. The manga touches on it very briefly, but the only significant impact is the crater. Gohan's matching would likely be due to one of the above theories I proposed, since he didn't put all his power in it until the reversal after the climax. Why Gohan's half didn't destroy anything would simply be due to the fact it wasted too much energy on Cell, hence why the blast didn't leave the Earth for very long before dissolving into nothing. Vegeta's Final Flash went on for miles and miles, maybe even light-years, but I highly doubt it was stronger. I don't see what damage you'd want though, the crater is just from the blast moving, and the Earth presumably had a bit of structural damage from the shaking. I'd find it safe to assume the solar system dying would be because of the detonation. Goku's Kamehameha that blew Cell's upper torso off would have easily blew the Earth up, yet it did nothing to the environment around it, sans fucking Cell up.

Also note that Gohan's blast probably did the opposite of what Cell's would have (i.e. hit the Earth). If not, it's more evidence that if Gohan didn't put up a fight, the solar system would have blown up, as opposed to fighting it and possibly having the same effect regardless (sans positioning).

[Deep Thought]

• With a battle power of 10, Goku ran 100 meters in 8.5 seconds. That's 11.76 meters per second.
• With a battle power of 334 (because he was wearing his weighted clothes), Goku ran 1,000,000 kilometers (the length of Serpent's Road) in around 207 days, which would make him around 55.91 meters per second quick. With a linear increase, we could say that his true top speed was 392.78 meters per second.
• After his training, his battle power has risen to 8,000, and he makes the return trip in only about 27 hours. That would make his speed 10,288 meters per second, but it may have been less than that, since he was skipping the loopy segments. Since he's around 24 times stronger, his speed, linearly, should be around 9,426 meters per second. You could just about say that fits.

After that it gets a bit iffier. By the time he returns to Earth from Namek, his battle power is at least 3,000,000. If it scaled linearly, this should give him a speed of at least 3,858,024.68 meters per second. That's so fast that he'd be able to make his 10,000 kilometer trip to Kame House and back in a matter of seconds, without teleporting. That doesn't seem to make sense considering Vegeta accused him of using super speed at first and only accepted it was teleportation when he heard the distance.

Wouldn't that still mean that Goku could fly to and from Kame-sennin's place in 3 seconds? That's assuming that Goku's speed didn't increase at all from the Sayajin arc to the Trunks arc.

Everything else aside, the single biggest reason I don't buy it:

The Earth is completely unaffected by Cell's Kamehameha. And Gohan matches it. There's supposedly enough energy there to destroy the entire solar system twice over...and it does less damage to the area than an atomic bomb would.

Yeah, but that sort of stuff happens all the time in the series. For instance, it's established that if someone is at 50% Freeza's power or higher and if they fire a ki attack directly at the planet, then the planet will be destroyed. (Lets assume that Sayajin arc Vegeta was bluffing and that suppressed Freeza used a special move to destroy planet Vegeta, for the sake of simplicity) Why was this not the case when Vegeta fired his Big Bang Attack directly at 19, and the Earth? Or when 16 used his Hell's Flash technique underground (and therefore closer to the Earth's core)? The Buu Arc was the worst offender; Vegeta's final explosion being at best comparable to an atom bomb, Gotenks' missile chain attack not immediately destroying the Earth, Super Sayajin 3 Goku's deflection of Buu's attack only destroying one tenth of the Earth.

There's also Trunks arc Vegeta being able to handle 18 tons (body weight at 300g Gravity chamber) but Buu arc Vegeta only working at 9 tons (150g gravity chamber and at Super Sayajin, no less!) and Goku only lifting 8 tons in the afterlife (2 ton weights on each limb). I'm starting to think Toriyama is just really, really bad at writing feats.

"Wh-what "chi"... !!! It's like the whole planet's trembling... !!!" (Context: Vegeta powering up to full power in the Sayajin arc, volume 4 chapter 35. Vegeta was Freeza's bottom bitch.)
"I feel the whole planet trembling..." (Context: Perfect Cell powering up to full power, volume 19, chapter 215. Imperfect Cell could crush full power Freeza like an ant, let alone perfect Cell.)

[Perfect]

Yeah, but that sort of stuff happens all the time in the series. For instance, it's established that if someone is at 50% Freeza's power or higher and if they fire a ki attack directly at the planet, then the planet will be destroyed

Not true, Freeza did so at 50% and it just cut a deep crevice in Namek. There's also several other examples. The technique matters greatly. A fantastic example is Semi-perfect Cell destroying islands, as the blasts didn't do anything more than blow up the islands, because of the technique associated.

Wouldn't that still mean that Goku could fly to and from Kame-sennin's place in 3 seconds? That's assuming that Goku's speed didn't increase at all from the Sayajin arc to the Trunks arc.

They all seem to dawdle, unless there's a serious issue, like with Cell absorbing people. Plus Goku could just IM anywhere, so the fact he dawdles fairly consistently is important.

[Bussani]

Wouldn't that still mean that Goku could fly to and from Kame-sennin's place in 3 seconds? That's assuming that Goku's speed didn't increase at all from the Sayajin arc to the Trunks arc.

Eh? There and back would take more than half an hour with the Saiyan arc speed I worked out above.

[yakonojo]

• With a battle power of 10, Goku ran 100 meters in 8.5 seconds. That's 11.76 meters per second.
• With a battle power of 334 (because he was wearing his weighted clothes), Goku ran 1,000,000 kilometers (the length of Serpent's Road) in around 207 days, which would make him around 55.91 meters per second quick. With a linear increase, we could say that his true top speed was 392.78 meters per second.
• After his training, his battle power has risen to 8,000, and he makes the return trip in only about 27 hours. That would make his speed 10,288 meters per second, but it may have been less than that, since he was skipping the loopy segments. Since he's around 24 times stronger, his speed, linearly, should be around 9,426 meters per second. You could just about say that fits.

After that it gets a bit iffier. By the time he returns to Earth from Namek, his battle power is at least 3,000,000. If it scaled linearly, this should give him a speed of at least 3,858,024.68 meters per second. That's so fast that he'd be able to make his 10,000 kilometer trip to Kame House and back in a matter of seconds, without teleporting. That doesn't seem to make sense considering Vegeta accused him of using super speed at first and only accepted it was teleportation when he heard the distance.

Wouldn't that still mean that Goku could fly to and from Kame-sennin's place in 3 seconds? That's assuming that Goku's speed didn't increase at all from the Sayajin arc to the Trunks arc.


The best explanation I can think of is : at that moment, goku had a low ki (suppressed). Since vegeta can sense his ki, he was probably suprised he didn't have to rise it to reach that speed. That or Akira Toriyama just can't do math

[Nex Carnifex]

I think Buu could do it too its just he never really charged anything up for this long and I don't think the radius of the explosion is parallel to how much damage it does to whoever is caught in it. For example I'm sure Majin Vegeta's self destruction was much more deadly than Cell's Solar Kamehameha but it didn't even destroy the planet.

[Master Turbo]

Tao did not state his speed, so maybe you mean if you calculate the speed of the pillar?

Tao didn't directly state it, but the time and distance is giving for it and he does catch up to the pillar to ride it after he threw it so he's at least as fast as Mach 3.7551 is not faster. Whether he can maintain that level of speed for a constant period of time is irrelevant. We are comparing speed, not raw endurance and although its true they can't keep up that speed for very long at their lower levels...it appears once you hit base Goku's level (during the fighting against Nappa & Vegeta) you can keep up that constant speed for 28 hours even though you'll be very tired when you're done.

Also, if that isn't enough then lets use the Daizenshuu as a reference point, it has Goku at BP of 10 before Roshi's training. Goku is clocked at 26.3169 mph. So using a linear scale Goku at 100 would be 263.169 mph so a BP of 260 would be 684.2394 mph. The Daizenshuu has that for Goku against young Piccolo Daimao. That's several times slower than Tao Pai Pai who he is far stronger than at that point. So going back to Goku's BP of 10 and multiplying that by 800 we get a BP of 8000 which is mach 27.68. However, the BP difference between 180 and 8000 is around a 44.5x, Tao is near mach 4 with a BP lower than 180 so technically speaking Goku should be like over mach 178 with a BP of over 8000. However, calculating it linearly Goku is far far slower so that doesn't work. Piccolo after merging with Nail was above 1 million so Goku's stated speed with a BP of 10 times 100000 equals mach 3460 (731.5783 mi/s) so Goku at 3 million would be mach 10380 and as a SSJ mach 519000, but once again we have problems. Assuming Namek's diameter is about the same as Earth more or less due to it having about the same gravity it should take Piccolo no more than 11 seconds to get there assumin both parties are the furthest point away from each other, yet it takes him several minutes to get there and he mentions he in an hurry so yeah...

Assuming Goku is that fast at 3 million then traveling 10000 kilometers and back should take no more than 5.66 seconds to accomplish, yet Vegeta and co. found it implausible with just super speed so Goku doesn't appear to be that fast. If the speed was scaled linearly then SSJ Trunks during the Buu arc should have easily flew from his grandparents' place after getting the radar back to the look out inn under a a millisecond, yet he many minutes or so probably. Trying to calculate Goku's speed from battle powers seems useless in the end.

We still run into problems when trying to calculate linearly from that since if Goku is that fast with a BP of over 8000 than Piccolo with a BP over 1 million should be 125x faster than that and assuming Namek has a diameter similar to Earth due to it having about the same gravity as Earth more or less than it should have took Piccolo after merging with Nail no more than 10 second to arrive at the planet assuming both parties are the furthest point away from each other yet it took Piccolo at least several minutes before finally getting there.

Gravity training also shows strength going up at different rate compared to his speed and battle power.

Other examples would be Burter being faster than Recoom and Jeice despite having about the same level of power as they do. Goku at 90,000 is possibly faster than Ginyu in his own words meaning he's at least just as fast as Ginyu himself and Ginyu is 120,000 to Goku's 90,000 so if stats increase linearly shouldn't Captain Ginyu be much faster than Goku by default of having a higher BP? There's even an example of Piccolo assuming even though Freeza's power increased with his second transformation he still has the advantage in speed. he's proven wrong later, but the fact Piccolo believes this shows its possible to happen. Weighted clothing Goku was near equal to Tenshinhan, yet Tenshinhan had the greater speed compared to Goku so there are a few examples in the series where BP increases don't necessarily mean linear increases. You even got an official guide book outright showing you this in Goku's training chart improvements.

That doesn't disprove the idea. Like I said, I propose it's only linear assuming nothing else changes. If power level increases 5 times, speed increases five times (on my theory). However, this doesn't mean Goku can't increase his speed more than 5 times by improving his body independently of battle power increase or lower it by becoming heavier or something.

It can of does if his stats are shown going up a different rates and not equally the same. The gravity training even shows this as far is strength is concerned. battle power going up does mean speed goes up, but this doesn't necessarily mean linearly otherwise SSJ Goku would be light speed by now when he returns to Earth to meet Trunks.

We already know that, it's just that we doubt Toriyama scaled it linearly since there's no FTL showings or statements.

Wouldn't be the first time he ignored/forgot his own rules.

There are instances of FTL & light speed showings:
FTL Ki Sensing (King Kai senses Goku Ki in a FTL spaceship)
FTL Ki Sensing (Goku senses Namekian planet Ki for IT, Also Goku senses Bulma's Ki through several Billions human Ki.) (We all know average human has Ki of 5, this is actually a impressive feat when u think about it. I would liken it to searching every face on Earth until u see Bulma's.)

I'm curious how do you put a speed on sensing ki since that seems a little out there, let alone how do you know Dragon Ball's Earth population. As for North Kaio thing, that is exactly the kind of moments fans take things way out of context than Toriyama originally intended. That is the exact same example similar to Vegeta sensing the Ginyu Force ki in spacepods moving faster than light, about a thousand times faster than light actually, yet Vegeta, Kuririn, and Gohan can't sense any of their movements by ki sensing, Guldo included, when they pass by and land right in front of him before Vegeta can reach the DBs. Does that mean the Ginyu Force where flying faster a thousand times faster than light even though Kuririn and Gohan were faster than Guldo who they couldn't even sense his movements when he was flying with the rest? What about Burter, none of them can follow his ki when he catches the Dragon Ball Vegeta uses and back using just flight. And Burter isn't anymore than 6x there's own level and is not even twice Vegeta's own level so scaling back are Vegeta, Gohan, and Kuririn hundreds of times faster than light? Are Goku, Ginyu, and first form Freeza faster than light even though not a single one of those characters where shown to fly anywhere near light speed, Burter included.

[TheMightyOzaru]

quick question, just how many megatons of energy would be required to even destroy the sun?

[Bussani]

quick question, just how many megatons of energy would be required to even destroy the sun?

Close to 165 septillion (165,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) megatons, I believe. You'd need more than that if you wanted it to be a fast moving explosion, though.

[TheMightyOzaru]

quick question, just how many megatons of energy would be required to even destroy the sun?

Close to 165 septillion (165,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) megatons, I believe. You'd need more than that if you wanted it to be a fast moving explosion, though.

Isn't the number in the Sextillions? After a few calcs it would seem a power level of over 17 Sextillion is the correct number.

[Bussani]

The minimum energy necessary to overcome the Sun's gravitational binding energy is 6.9e+41 joules, which translates to roughly 1.65e+26 megatons. That's 165 septillion. If you're coming up with a different result, could you tell us how you're doing the math for comparison?

[TheMightyOzaru]

I was taking the amount needed to destroy Earth and multiplying it by the Sun's mass.

[Hitiro]

Isn't the number in the Sextillions? After a few calcs it would seem a power level of over 17 Sextillion is the correct number.

What makes you think that it takes a powerlevel of 17 Sextillion destroy the Sun? How are you calculating how much powerlevel you'd need to destroy it? Are you under the assumption that the destructive force of ki scales linearly with powerlevels?

Ten billion megatons is required to blow up the moon. Master Roshi did this with a powerlevel of 137

Fifty quadrillion megatons(50,000,000,000,000,000) would be needed to blow up the Earth. If the destructiveness of ki scaled linearly with the persons powerlevel then a person would require a powerlevel 5 million times stronger than Master Roshi to pull of this feat. So they would need a powerlevel of 685,000,000.

Freeza destroyed planet Vegeta which had 10 times the gravity of Earth with a powerlevel of 530,000. If anything if the MT needed to destroy the Sun was in the Sextillions the the persons powerlevel would need to be under that. We're probably talking in the Quintillions at least but it is probably far lower considering that Freeza is only around 4,000 times stronger than Roshi and the destructive force of his ki is well over 5 million times stronger than his. Even if you wanted to say that for every 4,000 times stronger a person is than Roshi(Assuming Freeza could only destroy Earth now, ignoring the fact that he destroyed planet Vegeta) a powerlevel of 137 million would put the persons destructiveness at 12.5 quintillion(12,500,000,000,000,000,000) MT. Take that to person to 137 billion and they would be dishing out 12.5 Sextillion (12,500,000,000,000,000,000,000) MT.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Isn't the number in the Sextillions? After a few calcs it would seem a power level of over 17 Sextillion is the correct number.

What makes you think that it takes a powerlevel of 17 Sextillion destroy the Sun? How are you calculating how much powerlevel you'd need to destroy it? Are you under the assumption that the destructive force of ki scales linearly with powerlevels?

Ten billion megatons is required to blow up the moon. Master Roshi did this with a powerlevel of 137

Fifty quadrillion megatons(50,000,000,000,000,000) would be needed to blow up the Earth. If the destructiveness of ki scaled linearly with the persons powerlevel then a person would require a powerlevel 5 million times stronger than Master Roshi to pull of this feat. So they would need a powerlevel of 685,000,000.

Freeza destroyed planet Vegeta which had 10 times the gravity of Earth with a powerlevel of 530,000. If anything if the MT needed to destroy the Sun was in the Sextillions the the persons powerlevel would need to be under that. We're probably talking in the Quintillions at least but it is probably far lower considering that Freeza is only around 4,000 times stronger than Roshi and the destructive force of his ki is well over 5 million times stronger than his. Even if you wanted to say that for every 4,000 times stronger a person is than Roshi(Assuming Freeza could only destroy Earth now, ignoring the fact that he destroyed planet Vegeta) a powerlevel of 137 million would put the persons destructiveness at 12.5 quintillion(12,500,000,000,000,000,000) MT. Take that to person to 137 billion and they would be dishing out 12.5 Sextillion (12,500,000,000,000,000,000,000) MT.

I'm trying to find an accurate megatons to Ki conversion right now. I need a conversion that makes Cell a star buster or a straight up Solar System buster within a reasonable level. I'm not going over 4 Trillion for Cell's power level.

[dbzfan7]

I don't think Toriyama put any math or calculations into anything. He could probably write Goku destroying a solar system or 2 for no reason if he felt like it. To some it would make no sense but knowing him he wouldn't care. Still fun to see some math on this subject.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I don't think Toriyama put any math or calculations into anything. He could probably write Goku destroying a solar system or 2 for no reason if he felt like it. To some it would make no sense but knowing him he wouldn't care. Still fun to see some math on this subject.

Well it probably wouldn't be that hard to calculate when we take into account an exponential increase in destructive capacity when power levels increase. Either that or we just accept that power levels got really big. Cell's power level would have to be over 15 trillion if we scaled linerally. Minded I don't think that is too massive but its still bigger than I'd like.

[dbzfan7]

I don't think Toriyama put any math or calculations into anything. He could probably write Goku destroying a solar system or 2 for no reason if he felt like it. To some it would make no sense but knowing him he wouldn't care. Still fun to see some math on this subject.

Well it probably wouldn't be that hard to calculate when we take into account an exponential increase in destructive capacity when power levels increase. Either that or we just accept that power levels got really big. Cell's power level would have to be over 15 trillion if we scaled linerally. Minded I don't think that is too massive but its still bigger than I'd like.

Meh I don't think too much on it. Maybe the Choezenshu will help shed some light on info about Ki. I'll wait for a formula that makes sense.

[Hitiro]

I'm trying to find an accurate megatons to Ki conversion right now. I need a conversion that makes Cell a star buster or a straight up Solar System buster within a reasonable level. I'm not going over 4 Trillion for Cell's power level.

Considering how much of an increase in megatons you get from going from someone of Roshi's powerlevel to someone of Freeza's powerlevel its probably not going to be anywhere near a Trillion. You are probably looking at billions. I'm sure somebody would be kind enough to estimate how many megatons would be required for a planet of Earth's size with a gravity of 10 times that of Earth which will more than point out how much lower a person's powerlevel would be to destroy the Sun.

Well it probably wouldn't be that hard to calculate when we take into account an exponential increase in destructive capacity when power levels increase. Either that or we just accept that power levels got really big. Cell's power level would have to be over 15 trillion if we scaled linerally. Minded I don't think that is too massive but its still bigger than I'd like.

As I pointed out, if we were scaling linearly then Freeza in his first form would have to be exceptionally more powerful than he was to destroy planet Vegeta. And as with the example I give, even if we scaled it while making Freeza's ki destructiveness weaker than it actually is and say he could only destroy Earth then for each 4000 times a person is stronger than Roshi they gain an extra 5,000,000 times more megatons onto their ki destructiveness. If Cell had a powerlevel of a Trillion he'd be outputting a destrucive force of Octillion Megatons or Nonillion Megatons, perhaps higher.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'm trying to find an accurate megatons to Ki conversion right now. I need a conversion that makes Cell a star buster or a straight up Solar System buster within a reasonable level. I'm not going over 4 Trillion for Cell's power level.

Considering how much of an increase in megatons you get from going from someone of Roshi's powerlevel to someone of Freeza's powerlevel its probably not going to be anywhere near a Trillion. You are probably looking at billions. I'm sure somebody would be kind enough to estimate how many megatons would be required for a planet of Earth's size with a gravity of 10 times that of Earth which will more than point out how much lower a person's powerlevel would be to destroy the Sun.

I hope that happens soon. The Megaton increase is obviously proportional to power level increases in some way and not a gravity formula that Screwattack conjured up. That gravity formula is only useful for calculating Goku's physical abilities since Ki and strength are not proportional.