Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kaboom]

And you'll likewise keep insisting that they're so-called "flaws," regardless of anything else. I think both of us should get used to it and leave it alone.

Also, for the record, my power level lists are NEVER intended as completely serious. Maybe that's another difference between me and others.

[Saiga]

So, I've been working on my lists, knowing I wanted to make some changes before posting but not knowing what I want to change. So I just decided to instead post my numbers as they currently are and ask people to weigh in!

So, here they aaaare~

Android Arc

Son Goku - 4,800,000
--Super Saiyan - 240,000,000
----Sick - 120,000,000

Piccolo - 16,000,000
--Full Power 160,000,000

Son Gohan - 4,200,000

Kuririn - 145,000

Tenshinhan - 54,900

Yamcha - 44,400

Trunks - 3,600,000
--Super Saiyan - 180,000,000

Vegeta - 5,200,000
--Super Saiyan - 260,000,000

Android 20 - 125,000,000
--Vegeta's ki - 130,000,000
----Piccolo's ki - 146,000,000

Android 19 - 110,000,000
--Goku's ki - 130,000,000
----Vegeta's ki - 180,000,000

Android 18 - 290,000,000

Android 17 - 320,000,000

Android 16 - 400,000,000

Explantions: Everyone's had 3 years of training except for Trunks, who has only had eight months, and as such is lagging behind. I think Piccolo might be too high, maybe he should be below Trunks from 3 years before... I'm not sure. Kuririn is so high because I'm using his V Jump Battle Power of 75,000 as my starting point before the training. Android 16 might be too low, I'm not sure...

Cell Appears

Piccolo - 320,000,000

Cell - 275,000,000
--Humans Absorbed - 400,000,000
--Semi-Perfect - 550,000,000
----Full Power - 700,000,000
--Perfect - 1,050,000,000
----Power Stressed/Grade III - 2,100,000,000

Vegeta - 11,800,000
--Super Saiyan - 590,000,000
----Grade II - 885,000,000

Trunks - 11,500,000
--Super Saiyan - 575,000,000
----Grade II - 862,500,000
----Grade III - 1,150,000,000

Explanations: Piccolo has just fused with God, and Cell began powerful enough that he had no-one to fear but Piccolo and the Androids. After absorbing a bunch of humans he became strong enough to make Piccolo crap himself. The jumps in power here are pretty low to make everyone fit below/around Goku's 50% power later with making Goku too high.

The Cell Games

Son Goku - 40,000,000
--Super Saiyan half power - 1,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan full power - 2,000,000,000

Son Gohan - 50,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 2,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2 - 5,000,000,000
----Enraged - 6,000,000,000
----Injured - 3,000,000,000

Vegeta - 31,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 1,550,000,000

Trunks - 29,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 1,450,000,000

Piccolo - 800,000,000

Perfect Cell - 2,250,000,000
--Full Power/Grade II - 3,375,000,000
--Power Stressed/Grade III - 4,500,000,000
--"Super Perfect" - 4,500,000,000

Cell Jr. - 1,600,000,000

Explanations: 50% of Goku's power wows everyone, and for good reason. Though he can put up a good fight against Cell, he's not quite Cell's equal. Both fighters leave Gohan unimpressed, who is stronger than either. Vegeta/Trunks are behind the 3 main fighters, with Piccolo being even further behind. Cell's "full power" has been compared to Grade II by a few others and I've adopted that view. The rest of his figures are pretty standard. He's quite outclassed by the enraged Gohan, but I think that fits. Especially if "half" power Gohan was able to hold off his Kamehameha, even if he was losing.

Boo Arc: The 25th Tenkaichi Budokai


Son Gohan - 52,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 2,600,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2 - 5,200,000,000
--Post Z-Sword - 65,000,000
----Ultimate - 100,000,000,000

Son Goten - 27,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 1,350,000,000
--Post RoSaT - 30,000,000
----Super Saiyan - 1,500,000,000

Vegeta - 64,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 3,200,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 6,400,000,000
--Demon Prince - 4,000,000,000
----Super Saiyan 2 - 8,000,000,000

Trunks - 28,600,000
--Super Saiyan - 1,430,000,000
--Post RoSaT - 30,000,000
----Super Saiyan - 1,500,000,000

Piccolo - 1,000,000,000

Goku - 80,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 4,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2 - 8,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3 - 32,000,000,000

Kibito - 55,000,000

Kaioshin - 1,500,000,000
--Kibitoshin - 6,000,000,000

Tenshinhan - 95,000

Mr. Satan - 200,000

Gotenks - 140,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 7,000,000,000
--Post RoSaT - 180,000,000
----Super Saiyan - 9,000,000,000
----Super Saiyan 3 - 72,000,000,000

Majin Boo - 28,800,000,000
--Good Boo - 24,500,000,000
--Grey Boo - 45,500,000,000

Evil Boo - 70,000,000,000
--Gotenks + Piccolo - 143,000,000,000
--Kids + Piccolo - 71,060,000,000
--Gohan + Kids + Piccolo - 171,060,000,000

Vegetto - 5,000,000,000
--Super Vegetto - 250,000,000,000

Pure Boo - 30,000,000,000

Explanations: I don't believe Gohan got weaker over the 7 years, just lost access to his ability to gain strength from his rage. He got a little stronger from maturing into adolescence and training for the 25th Budokai. Goku and Vegeta have both surpassed the enraged SS2 Gohan from 7 years ago, however Vegeta needs a boost to become Goku's equal. Goten and Trunks are extremely strong for their age, able to spar with their Saiyan relatives and surpassing Piccolo as Super Saiyans. Piccolo hasn't changed much, as he doesn't have much reason to improve. Kibito is strong enough to give base Gohan a hard fight, and Kaioshin is noticeably stronger than Piccolo (I may still have him too low). Gotenks is quite powerful, but it isn't until his RoSaT training that he surpasses "Vegeta and the others". The rest of the numbers are fairly straight forward.

So, there you have it. Feedback is appreciated. I'm especially wondering what you think, Kaboom, since our figures are quite close to each other.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku and Vegeta pretty much state Gohan got weaker when fighting Dabura as well so Gohan did get weaker.

[Saiga]

Goku and Vegeta pretty much state Gohan got weaker when fighting Dabura as well so Gohan did get weaker.

I know that, but I believe he was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra, so they'd be comparing him to his enraged SS2 kid self.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku and Vegeta pretty much state Gohan got weaker when fighting Dabura as well so Gohan did get weaker.

I know that, but I believe he was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra, so they'd be comparing him to his enraged SS2 kid self.

That doesn't make any sense =/. Gohan lacked the SSJ2 aura, sparks, sharper stair, and more stand up-ish hair. Their is a very distinct difference between a SSJ and a SSJ2. Gohan was obviously just a SSJ.

[Saiga]

Goku and Vegeta pretty much state Gohan got weaker when fighting Dabura as well so Gohan did get weaker.

I know that, but I believe he was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra, so they'd be comparing him to his enraged SS2 kid self.

That doesn't make any sense =/. Gohan lacked the SSJ2 aura, sparks, sharper stair, and more stand up-ish hair. Their is a very distinct difference between a SSJ and a SSJ2. Gohan was obviously just a SSJ.

His hair doesn't resemble his SS1 hair either, the only thing saying sparks are part of the SS2 form is the GT Perfect Files, and Daizenshuu 7 confirms he was SS2.

But that's getting really off-topic and it's been debated to death many times.

[TheMightyOzaru]

His hair doesn't resemble his SS1 hair either, the only thing saying sparks are part of the SS2 form is the GT Perfect Files, and Daizenshuu 7 confirms he was SS2.

But that's getting really off-topic and it's been debated to death many times.

The Daizenshuu's also state he was just a SSJ at one time last I checked. Furthermore:
http://i38.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/4 ... -71690.jpg http://i36.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/4 ... -71523.jpg
He is a plain SSJ in both images one bang does not a SSJ2 make.
http://i38.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/4 ... -71548.jpg
You can also clearly see that Gohan's hair is more stand up-ish in the back than in the image where Gohan is pissed at Spopobitchi. There is also a very distinct difference in the aura as well as the sharpness of the face.

[Kaboom]

But that's getting really off-topic and it's been debated to death many times.

I concur.

[Saiga]

The last thing I'm going to say on this is that the Daizenshuu never said he was only a Super Saiyan (that's a misconception that I truly hate) and I don't see much difference in his SS1/SS2 hair at the Budokai. Any difference is likely because they're just two different drawings rather than an actual difference between forms.

[TheMightyOzaru]

The last thing I'm going to say on this is that the Daizenshuu never said he was only a Super Saiyan (that's a misconception that I truly hate) and I don't see much difference in his SS1/SS2 hair at the Budokai. Any difference is likely because they're just two different drawings rather than an actual difference between forms.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for Gohan to be a SSJ2. It would make more sense but there is just way too big a difference in the designs for me to take that seriously.

[Strife1]

Saiga, that's a nice list. Nothing on there really strikes me as off except the Mr. Satan thing. I just really Disagree with it, he was compared to Bob Sapp by Toriyama, and Bob Sapp is definitely not a City buster, at best.

[Saiga]

Saiga, that's a nice list. Nothing on there really strikes me as off except the Mr. Satan thing. I just really Disagree with it, he was compared to Bob Sapp by Toriyama, and Bob Sapp is definitely not a City buster, at best.

Don't worry, that's just me being silly.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

His hair doesn't resemble his SS1 hair either

It didn't resemble his hairstyle before the 25th TB, when he had two bangs instead of one. From the 25th TB arc and onwards, he had the SS hairstyle with one bang, and the SS2 hairstyle, where his hairstyle is more pointy and straight up. Gohan's SS hairstyle in the 25th TB stayed the same for the rest of the series.

the only thing saying sparks are part of the SS2 form is the GT Perfect Files

And the manga, if you ignore the Gohan vs Dabra fight.

Not saying that Gohan was definitely a Super Saiyan. To me, he looks exactly like a Super Saiyan, but by power, he seems to be a Super Saiyan 2.

BTW, why don't we make a sticky thread for the whole Gohan SS/SS2 topic, so that whenever a thread jumps into this subject (like now), we can discuss about it in its rightful thread.

[Godo]

I have yet to see anything new in the Ssj2 or not debate.
And also, both sides have more or less sound argument.
IMO the debate is pretty inconclusive. It goes more or less to what you want to believe.
Do you believe that the fight showed Dabra and Gohan fighting at SSJ level or Ssj2 level?
Do you want to agree with the Daizenshuu?
Do you want to go by the hairstyle? Or the sparks? Or both?
Since there is no definitive answer, most debates go in circles (and often end ugly).
And also, why does a mere debate about Ssj or Ssj2 deserve to be a sticky and other debates not?
Why does Gohan's state against Dabra (which didn't make any difference at all in the story, since neither one won the battle, and didn't affect anything much at all) have so much importance?
As well as Piccolo vs. Kaioshin (which also doesn't matter jack since they both are useless in the Boo arc, battle wise).
And also the "which is the strongest human" debate. It also doesn't matter. It doesn't make a difference if Kuririn or Tenshinhan is the stronger.
Another one is the pure Boo vs. Evil Boo debate. It's a simple explanation; if you want to go by the manga or anime. And in the end it doesn't matter! Evil Boo was defeated by Gohan and Gotenks pretty much, and Pure Boo by the
Genki-dama.
All these debates show up from time to time, and are beaten to death each time. And never ever have I seen any of these topics end with a result, and very rarely has anyone converted to the other side.
The examples and "facts" presented are always the same ones, and I have yet to see any refreshing new info.
They are pointless, time wasting, and utterly non-important. And they don't deserve a sticky. Ever.
They should be buried and the horrors within them together with them.

Be a fan. Choose what you want. Don't be shocked if someone doesn't agree.


Saiga: Really nice power level list! It's balanced. But one thing I don't agree with is that Mr. Satan's power level is so low. I mean, he did defeat Cell after all.
I have been thinking of making my own new list soon. But it will probably take some time until I'll start with it. It always does.

[hleV]

Why does Gohan's state against Dabra (which didn't make any difference at all in the story, since neither one won the battle, and didn't affect anything much at all) have so much importance?
As well as Piccolo vs. Kaioshin (which also doesn't matter jack since they both are useless in the Boo arc, battle wise).
And also the "which is the strongest human" debate. It also doesn't matter. It doesn't make a difference if Kuririn or Tenshinhan is the stronger.

Who are you to just go and say "it doesn't matter"? If it doesn't matter to you, it doesn't mean that it doesn't/shouldn't matter to others. I personally want to have an idea of characters' strength levels at certain points in the story, so it does matter to me. It's true that there a many discussions regarding character strengths that go in circles, but once in a while a new valid point is brought up, which makes up for it.

[Godo]

Why does Gohan's state against Dabra (which didn't make any difference at all in the story, since neither one won the battle, and didn't affect anything much at all) have so much importance?
As well as Piccolo vs. Kaioshin (which also doesn't matter jack since they both are useless in the Boo arc, battle wise).
And also the "which is the strongest human" debate. It also doesn't matter. It doesn't make a difference if Kuririn or Tenshinhan is the stronger.

Who are you to just go and say "it doesn't matter"? If it doesn't matter to you, it doesn't mean that it doesn't/shouldn't matter to others. I personally want to have an idea of characters' strength levels at certain points in the story, so it does matter to me. It's true that there a many discussions regarding character strengths that go in circles, but once in a while a new valid point is brought up, which makes up for it.

I already have my own opinion on those matters, but to correct myself (or being more specific), they don't matter in the big scale. Yet, those topics get much more energy than other subjects.
You say that you want to know how strong a certain character is. That's fine. I can then assume that you enter the discussion with an opinion, and are then open to new answers and ways of seeing tings. And I guess that you have several times been persuaded into believing differently?
If yes, that's very good.
But the point is that the majority people in those threads have already made up their opinion, and truthfully go on some kind of crusade to pretty much force how much more right and logical their opinion is.

And no, it is not important how strong Gohan was. Gohan was claimed to have gotten weaker. Or at least unable to bring up his own power. He then fought Dabra pretty evenly, no one won.
If both were at SSj2 level or Ssj1 level. It doesn't change a thing. Because Vegeta later got pummeled by Fat Buu, and Gohan would have the same fate no matter if he was a Ssj 1 or a Ssj 2, since we know Vegeta is quite the bit stronger.
In fact, Goku and Vegeta had improved quite a bit compared to Cell games Gohan, so it's quite tough to decide if they were on Ssj2 level or not. And during the discussions, hair style, sparks, damage, the same comments by the characters and the Daizenshuu are brought forward as "hard evidence". Even though most of these are vague at best.

If you like to know how strong someone is, it's fine to me. But it doesn't matter on a large scale (rather a minuscule scale compared to the whole story of Dragonball) when it comes to the story.

And the attention and fierce energy these certain topics get from the community baffles me. Wy are fans so hooked up on such small details when there are so many more interesting things to discuss?

I don't get some fans, really. And these piece of crap topics infiltrate sooooooo many threads and destroy them.

So yeah, not everyone is interested in these redundant topics. To be able to enter a strength thread without seeing another Gohan vs. Dabra comment would be gold.

[Saiga]

His hair doesn't resemble his SS1 hair either

It didn't resemble his hairstyle before the 25th TB, when he had two bangs instead of one. From the 25th TB arc and onwards, he had the SS hairstyle with one bang, and the SS2 hairstyle, where his hairstyle is more pointy and straight up. Gohan's SS hairstyle in the 25th TB stayed the same for the rest of the series.

I don't think it resembled any of his previous Super Saiyan hairstyles. His hair just seems to get magically shorter during the Dabra fight and afterwards.

the only thing saying sparks are part of the SS2 form is the GT Perfect Files

And the manga, if you ignore the Gohan vs Dabra fight.

It doesn't state it. It's mostly consistent, but it's still only an assumption on the part of the fans that it's related to Super Saiyan 2. I'm starting to think it's more about power, especially since Toriyama has started drawing SS1 Goku with the sparks.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Hey, Mr. Saiga, may I ask if you have a YouTube channel by the name of Piccolo Kami by any chance?

I thought I'd post a very short list of something I did out of boredom. Please excuse me if it looks extremely messy and out of the usual format; I've never posted these lists before and wanted to hear peoples' opinions with the levels and overall presentation if they had any. They list follows the idea that 4% difference in strength is enough to have a moderate advantage over somebody in a fight. The goal is to portray, briefly, my interpretations of the fights, especially with Captain Ginyuu versus Gokuu, and giving them annoyingly specific levels to look pretty. Keep in mind, I'm intentionally ignoring putting down level considerations out of disinterest/ pointlessness. I added choppy notes to summarize my explanations of my opinions. Appreciate any feedback.

Namekku (ナメック) & Ginyū Tokusentai (ギニュー特戦隊)
--
Bejīta (ベジータ)
- 17,830 (suppressed; Kiwi thought he could win)
- 24,600 (could've been stronger w/ more rest/ different healing)
- 25,790 (post-heal; could be stronger w/ rest/ different healing)
- 30,050 (against Rikūmu; had a day to relax, but probably no sleep)
- 33,055 (Final Crash; not as much ki as Gyarikku Hō)
- 49,007 (Senzu Bean; still could be much stronger with proper rest)

Kiwi (キュイ)
- 18,200

Dodoria (ドドリア)
- 22,190

Zābon (ザーボン)
- 23,510 (beauty)
- 25,861 (beast; Bejīta got upper-hand exploiting his over-confidence)
- 25,354 (beast; injured, Bejīta said his ki dropped)

Rikūmu (リクーム)
- 35,270 (warming-up, cuz he said he was at start)
- 45,020 (Bāta said he was going all-out on Bejīta later)
- 49,522 (Rikūmu Kick)
- 55,009 (Rikūmu Eraser Gun, blast left a crater; he's a mutant)

Jīsu (ジース)
- 43,500
- 50,467 (Crusher Ball: ki control being his mutation specialty)

Bāta (バータ)
- 42,470
- 58,800 (his speed-worth from mutation)

Ginyū (ギニュー)
51,380 (suppressed)
63,990 (against Son Gokū; anticipated his power being about 60,000)
83,000 (Milky Cannon; started believing Gokū to be around 85,000)
119,997 (stated max said to be barely 120,000; never used in the fight)

Son Gokū (孫 悟空)
- 5,030 (suppressed)
- 49,601 (against Rikūmu)
- 59,900 (against Jīsu, Bāta, Ginyū)
- 84,310 (dodging Milky Cannon)
- 69,071 (racing Ginyū)
- 90,600 (maximum; used only when starting Kaiōken)
- 181,200 (Kaiōken x2: his standard was easily x10, but could risk using x20 with great drawbacks)

Kulilin (クリリン)
- 1,530
- 5,070 (flying; unlocked potential)
- 13,260 (against Gurudo/ Rikūmu)
- 15,912 (Kamehameha against Gurudo; more experience w/ ki control from Kami, so it's stronger than Gohan's)

Son Gohan (孫 悟飯)
- 1,470
- 7,800 (unlocked potential)
- 14,350 (against Gurudo/ Rikūmu)
- 15,068 (Kamehameha against Gurudo; inexperienced w/ ki control, so weaker than Kulilin's)

[Saiga]

Hey, Mr. Saiga, may I ask if you have a YouTube channel by the name of Piccolo Kami by any chance?

Nah, I don't have a youtube channel at all.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Just a quick question. Honestly how powerful do you guys think DBZ characters really are? I'm trying to reevaluate my power levels list and so far bigger numbers, as in Cell is 8,000,000,000,000+ allowing to actually destroy a solar system not just the sun, are easier to work with. DBZ characters haven't displayed anything greater than planet busting so I was just wondering, would solar system busting be too outlandish for these characters?