The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[dbzfan7]

Does Goku even have KKX20 by the time he fought Ginyu, I always thought he had access to it only when he fought Freeza?

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

It seems people don't agree on the idea, so possibly.

[dbzfan7]

It seems people don't agree on the idea, so possibly.

I personally don't think so because he could barely do KKX20 at 3,000,000. He could only do it once and was drained after his Kamehameha. I think being 33x weaker during his fight with the Ginyu force would mean he couldn't use KKX20.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It seems people don't agree on the idea, so possibly.

I personally don't think so because he could barely do KKX20 at 3,000,000. He could only do it once and was drained after his Kamehameha. I think being 33x weaker during his fight with the Ginyu force would mean he couldn't use KKX20.

I seem to recall Goku saying something about being able to amp it up to 20x before even arriving on Namek but I suppose that could be a dub line I'm remembering.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I personally don't think so because he could barely do KKX20 at 3,000,000. He could only do it once and was drained after his Kamehameha. I think being 33x weaker during his fight with the Ginyu force would mean he couldn't use KKX20.

Well, it's apparently stated he could go up to 10 folds Kaiou-ken when first arriving to Namek; this seemed to be the case even after healing; using 20 fold was a gamble. I don't see why having extra power would matter, as mastering the amount of gravity is not correlative to someone's power level, so I don't see why Kaiou-ken wouldn't be the same? Mastering 10x Gravity on Kaio's planet = Mastering Kaiou-ken x2/ risking x3 and 4 whilst mastering x100 Gravity = mastering Kaiou-ken x10 and probably being able to risk x20.

[dbzfan7]

I personally don't think so because he could barely do KKX20 at 3,000,000. He could only do it once and was drained after his Kamehameha. I think being 33x weaker during his fight with the Ginyu force would mean he couldn't use KKX20.

Well, it's apparently stated he could go up to 10 folds Kaiou-ken when first arriving to Namek; this seemed to be the case even after healing; using 20 fold was a gamble. I don't see why having extra power would matter, as mastering the amount of gravity is not correlative to someone's power level, so I don't see why Kaiou-ken wouldn't be the same? Mastering 10x Gravity on Kaio's planet = Mastering Kaiou-ken x2/ risking x3 and 4 whilst mastering x100 Gravity = mastering Kaiou-ken x10 and probably being able to risk x20.

Seems impossible considering he could barely do KKX20. If it was a gamble at the level he was at when fighting Freeza, how would he be able to pull it of when he was over 33x weaker pre-zenkai? Maybe he gained the ability through zenkai or always had it. But I doubt he could use it pre-zenkai when it was such a hassle post-zenkai. People say a Super Kaioken would explode Goku's body, well at the Ginyu point in the story I say KKX20 would kill Goku as well.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

But I doubt he could use it pre-zenkai when it was such a hassle post-zenkai. People say a Super Kaioken would explode Goku's body, well at the Ginyu point in the story I say KKX20 would kill Goku as well.

Why would his zenkai/ power increase matter? He had the same Gravity training as before and after he was healed. If he entered the Gravity chamber at x150 Earth's gravity with his Ginyuu-Saga power level of 90,000, he would struggle just as much at 3,000,000 because his body's not used to the gravity.

Think of it like this: it's a technique that needs to be mastered, it's not correlated with power. Although, I suppose it is possible his healing from Saiya-Jin DNA could have truly revitalized his body over Senzu Beans, but I think my point still stands.

[dbzfan7]

But I doubt he could use it pre-zenkai when it was such a hassle post-zenkai. People say a Super Kaioken would explode Goku's body, well at the Ginyu point in the story I say KKX20 would kill Goku as well.

Why would his zenkai/ power increase matter? He had the same Gravity training as before and after he was healed. If he entered the Gravity chamber at x150 Earth's gravity with his Ginyuu-Saga power level of 90,000, he would struggle just as much at 3,000,000 because his body's not used to the gravity.

Think of it like this: it's a technique that needs to be mastered, it's not correlated with power. Although, I suppose it is possible his healing from Saiya-Jin DNA could have truly revitalized his body over Senzu Beans, but I think my point still stands.

Because after Zenkai a Saiyan gets stronger. Kaioken multiplies the ki Goku has inside him and can go to beyond the point his body can handle. Earlier he could only handle 3x and destroyed his body at 4x. Gravity has nothing to do with anything. His body became stronger and more accumulated to hold more ki. Even the others say 10x is the maximum he can do. Which is what was probably accounted for before zenkai. Why would they say 10x was his maximum unless 20x would more then likely destroy his body, the situation changed after the zenkai. How would they know 10x was his maximum unless that was what he was clocked at before.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Gravity has nothing to do with anything.

I could say the same for his power level.

[dbzfan7]

Gravity has nothing to do with anything.

I could say the same for his power level.

I guess, doesn't stop the fact they called 10x his max KK.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Doesn't stop him from risking going over x10, like he went over x2 against Vegeta when King Kaiou warned against it or against Freeza, when he's stated he could only handle x10. My point is, there's no reason to believe he couldn't have pulled off KKx20 with the same risk, difficulty and success against Form II Freeza as his Ginyuu Saga counterpart like he did with 50% Freeza in Freeza Saga.

[dbzfan7]

Doesn't stop him from risking going over x10, like he went over x2 against Vegeta when King Kaiou warned against it or against Freeza, when he's stated he could only handle x10. My point is, there's no reason to believe he couldn't have pulled off KKx20 with the same risk, difficulty and success against Form II Freeza as his Ginyuu Saga counterpart like he did with 50% Freeza in Freeza Saga.

Kaio never said x2 was his max, he just said don't go over x2 since x3 nd above would burn him out much quicker and could destroy his body. x10 they clearly said was his max. He obviously clocked out at x10 before zenkai. Nothing says he could have gone x20 when there is no way his body would be able to handle it. If we go by your gravity theory, then Goku's durability, endurance, and strength didn't increase at all when he got 33x stronger after zenkai. Freeza would one shot Goku in first form if he didn't get stronger by that logic. After zenkai he surpassed his previous limit and was able to use the kaioken. Going by the definition below. x10 is his max. x20 is what drains him instantly. Here is the bio from D7. If 3,000,000 is the max without destroying your body, how can Goku pull off x20 with 90,000.

Kaio-Ken
First Appearance: Chapter 226
Category: ki manipulation
People: Son Goku
Special Characteristics: A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one’s body, multiplying all that person’s abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one’s abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-Ken might destroy one’s own body. When the user’s battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-Ken above those limits. The Kaio-Ken’s designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it. (Daizenshuu 2, p.212/ Daizenshuu 4, p.113)
Anime: The first movie it was used in was “The World’s Strongest Guy”, when it was shown during the battle with Dr. Uiro (Daizenshuu 6, p.52). In “Super Decisive Battle for the Earth”, Goku challenged Tullece with Kaio-Ken x10 (Daizenshuu 6, p.60). In the movies after that, the “~x” number mark wasn’t used.

[Fox666]

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[Saiga]

That's either a mistake, or at 90,000 he could go x10 but it was above his current limit at the time. Sort of like how Goku went x20 when his limit was x10.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

That's either a mistake, or at 90,000 he could go x10 but it was above his current limit at the time. Sort of like how Goku went x20 when his limit was x10.

What's a mistake? May I ask you to reiterate your point, please?

[Saiga]

That's either a mistake, or at 90,000 he could go x10 but it was above his current limit at the time. Sort of like how Goku went x20 when his limit was x10.

What's a mistake? May I ask you to reiterate your point, please?

I'm talking about dbzfan7's post, where the Daizenshuu claimed that at a battle power of 3,000,000 the limit of Kaio-ken was x10. That should be a mistake, since Goku said he could do it at 90,000. Unless the limit doesn't change between 90,000 and 3,000,000...

[dbzfan7]

That's either a mistake, or at 90,000 he could go x10 but it was above his current limit at the time. Sort of like how Goku went x20 when his limit was x10.

What's a mistake? May I ask you to reiterate your point, please?

I'm talking about dbzfan7's post, where the Daizenshuu claimed that at a battle power of 3,000,000 the limit of Kaio-ken was x10. That should be a mistake, since Goku said he could do it at 90,000. Unless the limit doesn't change between 90,000 and 3,000,000...

I'm gonna need a quote saying he could do x10 at 90,000. I only remember him saying he could put out more power in short bursts with kaioken. x10 at 3,000,000 he can do without straining himself. Maybe he could do x10 at 90,000, but he would strain himself for sure.

[Kaboom]

When Goku has just finished his gravity training on his ship and is admiring his new power, he says something like, "I'll bet I could handle a Kaio-Ken x10 now!"

[dbzfan7]

When Goku has just finished his gravity training on his ship and is admiring his new power, he says something like, "I'll bet I could handle a Kaio-Ken x10 now!"

Here it is

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P11.1-4
Context: Goku has turned the gravity back down to 1g.
Goku: “Hwoo!!! I…I feel so light… …It’s like I’m not even here!!! Hoo hoo hoo!!! I’m light, I’m light! And strong, strong! Like this, I can definitely withstand about a 10-fold Kaio-Ken!”

Interesting. Could mean that he could go that high without strain during the Ginyu Force battle, but on the other hand supports my point that he can't do x20 at this point or he would have said 20x. If he could do x20 he should have said "Like this, I can easily withstand a 10-fold Kaio-ken." But he says about 10 fold. Meaning that is the best he could do.

[Saiga]

Yeah, I'm starting to view it as 10x would be pushing himself, while at 3,000,000 he can comfortably do 10x, but 20x is pushing himself once again.