Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[GS7X7]

Goget's SSJ1 PL= 2,500,000,000
x 80 upgrade to SSJ4 =
200,000,000,000


Haha, and this is just assuming base Goku and Vegeta are equally powerful at the end of DBGT as DBZ... which you know they aren't.

Now, divide the whooping 200,000,000,000 by a measly 18,000,000..... dear God, so many zeros....


200,000,000,000 by a measly 18,000 =

11,111


Meaning, SSJ4 Goku's G Gun attack has that much more power than what is necessary to blow up the earth!

Now....

Bussani "You could try, with enough assumptions. For instance, if 18,000 really is enough to blow up the Earth, then going by the numbers they came up with for Superman's durability, you'd need more than 450 billion times as much power to do anything significant to Superman. Assuming battle powers increase linearly with energy like this, that would require a battle power of at least... ... ...what comes after a trillion? Ah, eight quadrillion (8,000,000,000,000,000). "

Good God my head is about to explode....

Alright, let's see SSJ4 Gogeta's power level once more....

200,000,000,000

8,000,000,000,000,000

200 billion PL to the 8,000 billion PL needed to "do anything significant to Superman". So that would be 1/16th.

Okay! Now we're actually getting closer!

And this is just based on Goku and Vegeta being the same PL at the end of GT as they are at DBZ, but neither of them showed signs of stopping training. (though Goku did take up Uub as an apprentice)

Anyway, the following is purely speculative but let's assume they doubled in PL. Therefore, Gogeta launching a simple Gallic Gun is now 1/8th (12.5%) of being able to"do anything significant to Superman". So that would be a an increase above the earlier 1/16th (6.25%).

"That's not fair doubling their strength."

Okay, let's increase it by 50%, that's a little bit more fair than assuming a doubling of baseform strength for all their training to the end of GT from DBZ. Now it becomes 9.375%.

Still too high? Let's assume they're only 1/4 stronger.... sounds a little unfair given all their training, right? But anyway... yada, yada, now it's 7.8125.

Again, it's impossible to quantify/know how much tougher they get in all the 10-11 years that go by....

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Timeline
Age 784, May 7th
Age 790


Only 6 years? I thought it was only 10 but, it's been forever since I watched GT so I'll follow the DB wiki.

With 6 years I'll give Goku/Vegeta a 25% upgrade, though I'd planned 50% for about 11 years. I wouldn't go higher than 33-40% but fuck it, this is all pure speculation so I'm sticking with 25%

Anyway, so after 6 years we assume they've become 25% stronger. SSJ4 Gogeta's Gallic Gun attack is simply 7.8125% powerful enough of being able to "do anything significant to Superman". (dear God, I hate that quote! No offense, Bussani)

Divide 100/7.8125 and we get....
12.5.


So here's SSJ4 Gogeta, at the end of DBGT, out to kick Superman's ass. Unfortunately, he needs 12.5 TIMES as much power to do inflict serious damage.

What to do?

1. Goku + Vegeta need to become about 13 times as powerful to have a nice, powerful ki attack for their their Gallic Gun.

2. Or, they need a better attack more powerful than the Gallic Gun.

3. Goku's Golden Dragon Whatever Fist is apparently the best move in his arsenal, excluding the Spirit Bomb. It did the most harm against Omega Shenron, though ultimately a Spirit Bomb was needed to finish the job. Vegeta's fabled "suicide blast" against Majin Buu is his most powerful move and might be enough to harm or even kill Supes, but... why bother calculating something that'd kill Gogeta as well?


4. However, going by the video's figures, the GDF still wasn't enough to do the trick. Interestingly enough though, it is fairly realistic based on figures to show Superman getting knocked out despite triumphing. How much stronger is it than the Gallic Gun?

While only Toriyama could say, going by the video it is less than 12.5 X as powerful. GDF IS shown to be pretty tough. But nevermind that.

5. The Spirit Bomb's power is limited ONLY by the number of people powering it. If all the people on earth can give enough power to finish Buu, and all the people in the universe (or at least the ones Goku and co. met during their travels) can finish Omega Shenron, then a Spirit Bomb of the kind that defeated Omega Shenron should possibly be enough to finish off Supes. Goku didn't have that much support in the video.


So, in conclusion....


1. Goku and Vegeta need to become about 13 X stronger in base form.... they probably could do that eventually in the Afterlife with enough training, but it'd probably take at least a century if not a few more.

1.5. Is the GDF (not right name, but oh well) 10 X stronger than Gallic or 100 X? It certainly is stronger as portrayed, but, the amount of strength increase Goku + Vegeta need lessens based on it's power. Even if it's 10X stronger, a simple double or tripling of base power may be enough for that move.

1.55 That's assuming Gogeta's "Rainball Ball Attack" from Movie 12 isn't more powerful than the GDF. There's never a direct comparison, or an enemy seen taking both attacks, so it's impossible to determine. (unless somebody borrowed figures from one of the Budokai or other games somewhere)

2. Goku can tell Vegeta to take a hike, then use his buddies in the Afterlife to help him gather the support of the universe. Superman may be stronger than nearly anyone in the universe, but not every last person in the universe combined. Given the size of the universe, I'm not sure even Pre-Crisis Supes is that overpowered. So, assuming Supes would stand around long enough or Goku could teleport it, Goku could kill him as long as he could connect the attack.

Haha, screw you Superman, Goku doesn't need Dabura or Vegeta to put an end to you.


Whew, that took forever to write out! Apologies for any errors in calculations, corrections are welcomed.

[GS7X7]

Ah ****, I screwed up there earlier.... I fudged a few zeros.

So that's 1/40,000th and not 1/16th.


Hold on, I'll edit this post after I recalculate above....

0.000025% is 1/40,000

vs

.0625% is 1/16th


Divide the above....

I think that's 2500 times more. Now, backtracking a bit, let's go to my cheerful, optimistic post and now add in 2500 times more.... (sorry for the multi-posting, it's kinda hard keeping track of all this math)




1. Goku + Vegeta need to become about 32,500 times as powerful to have a nice, powerful ki attack for their their Gallic Gun? Dear God! That Idiot Butterfly guy should be hatched long before they get anywhere near there!

1.5. Still think it's cheating to add in Vegeta for a Gogeta? I've been going with the figure that fusion is 100X stronger than both characters combined. Assuming Gogeta is 100X stronger, Goku now must become 3,250,000 X stronger for that Bussani quote. If Gogeta is 200X stronger, Goku must now become 1,625,000 X stronger.... not looking good in that department, I'm going to just stick with Gogeta.

2. Or, they need a better attack 32,500 X more powerful than the Gallic Gun.

3. Okay, so let's say GDF is more powerful.... If it's 100X stronger then...

325. It still needs to be 325 X stronger to reach that magic number Bussani gave us.

1,000 X tougher? Needs to be 32.5 X stronger.

10,000 X tougher?! Oh sweet Kami! It's NOT that powerful by a remote shot but, it still needs to be 3.25 X stronger!


4. Despite all the math I pulled out, the correct answer was the simplest one- the Spirit Bomb.

The Spirit Bomb's power is limited ONLY by the number of people powering it. If all the people on earth can give enough power to finish Buu, and all the people in the universe (or at least the ones Goku and co. met during their travels) can finish Omega Shenron, then a Spirit Bomb of the kind that defeated Omega Shenron should possibly be enough to finish off Supes. Goku didn't have that much support in the video.



And, that's it! Now that I know Goku can beat Supes by himself somehow, I'm done with the math as it is so any corrections to former math welcome.

One thing I did determine at least, Goku (and even Gogeta) needs a LOT more power to have a non-Spirit Bomb ki attack capable of messing up Superman. Over 3 million times his power? Goku will probably be over a million years old by the time he's strong enough if he trains in the Afterlife.

[Mewzard]

One problem: Superman's not evil. He's not evil at all. And given his insane strength, if Goku can even throw an attack like that at all (with a vastly inferior level of strength), then Superman can send it right back at Goku far harder than he could possibly counter. He's also pure, but his inferior power means he's going for a ride until he can teleport out of there.

Of course, you could try to go the other route, and say he absorbs it...but I'm pretty sure Goku would explode before even absorbing a thousandth of it.

[GS7X7]

Well, at the very least, Gogeta can match him for speed, and training to increase PL will make significantly faster than Superman than he already might be. Assuming Superman has some limit on how fast he actually can become, Gogeta should eventually surpass that with training.

And if he can absorb a Universal Spirit Bomb without his body caving in, Goku (I'm not sure Gogeta's pure enough to handle that?) should be able to beat up Superman.


That's a lot of assumptions though, lol. It'd really just be easier for Goku to have Dabura spit on Superman instead. I guess the main impression I get from comparing math formulas is that Superman is ridiculously overpowered but at least Gogeta should be able to outsurpass him in pure speed. Even "without Gogeta" Goku should be able to outrace Superman once he's "only" trained himself to be about 100-200X stronger. (which actually is an insanely low number compared to the the 3 million X or so he needs to harm Superman with a ki attack!)

[TonyTheTiger]

Goku actually CAN kill Superman.... kinda.

Nobody is really saying that he can't. Batman or Lex Luthor can kill Superman. It's just that it's so conditional it's not something that would factor in during a straight fist fight, which is what Death Battle is. Seems like this is where the disconnect happens. A lot of people arguing against the results do so by bringing up extremely esoteric (even if somewhat plausible) scenarios. But just about any matchup can be swung one way or the other if we let ourselves manipulate the conditions to that extent. Death Battle's premise is purposely minimalist in order to prevent that kind of bias overflow. What good would it be if everybody can freely concoct whatever random course of events that leads to their preferred outcome? So Death Battle eschews all that. It assumes nothing, compares all provable facts, and chooses the guy who is most likely to win. Goku may technically be able to kill Superman but he'd have to put a hell of a lot more effort into orchestrating that victory.

[GS7X7]

Lol, well I am a Goku fanboy so I just kind of want to see him win. Even if he loses in the "Death Battle Arena," the very idea he could still find a way to come back and kick Supes' ass is very appealing. After all, Goku always finds a way after fighting a stronger opponent, doesn't he? (Cell's an exception, but Cell got his ass kicked in the end)


But, aside from that, I was also curious to try and create a measurement for Goku's strength, and to try and calculate how much training would be needed for him to take down Supes.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Umm Gogeta's power level is NOT 2,500,000,000. That is from a scan promoting Budokai 3. The reason this doesn't work is because Cooler's power level is 475,000,000 according to these same scans. If thats the case SSJ Goku's is greater than 475,000,000. SSJ3 is 8x stronger than that meaning Goku's SSJ3 Power Level in Cooler's Revenge would be 3,800,000,000+. SSJ3 Goku(Cooler's Revenge) > SSJ Gogeta(Fusion Reborn)? I don't think so. Also there are no official power levels past Trunks suppressed power level against Mecha Freeza's troops. The highest recorded power level was 150,000,000 and that was SSJ Goku(Freeza Saga). Basically Goku is as strong as you interpret without being outlandish. I personally have him at 10,000,000,000,000 at SSJ4 if he went SSJ4 in the Buu saga. Using a 4x increase in power level to a 10x increase in megatons ratio that puts Goku at an ouput greater than 100 Nonillion megatons of force. Thats enough to destroy several solar systems at full power.

[GS7X7]

Ah, thanks for the correction.

I was going with the DB wiki (which often just lists figures with zero context and little explanation) but looking at some of their other entries, they seem to be pretty inaccurate at times. (for instance, canonizing the dub rewrites for Movie 7 without noting the differences between the versions)

[Gyt Kaliba]

I actually just thought of another question in regards to this, that I don't know if it's been asked yet, but it may have...is Superman unique in his powers and strength, or is it known or can be assumed that all of the Kryptonians were that 'badass'? If so...how in the hell did an exploding planet manage to kill most of them?

[GS7X7]

Umm Gogeta's power level is NOT 2,500,000,000. That is from a scan promoting Budokai 3. The reason this doesn't work is because Cooler's power level is 475,000,000 according to these same scans. If thats the case SSJ Goku's is greater than 475,000,000. SSJ3 is 8x stronger than that meaning Goku's SSJ3 Power Level in Cooler's Revenge would be 3,800,000,000+. SSJ3 Goku(Cooler's Revenge) > SSJ Gogeta(Fusion Reborn)? I don't think so. Also there are no official power levels past Trunks suppressed power level against Mecha Freeza's troops. The highest recorded power level was 150,000,000 and that was SSJ Goku(Freeza Saga). Basically Goku is as strong as you interpret without being outlandish. I personally have him at 10,000,000,000,000 at SSJ4 if he went SSJ4 in the Buu saga. Using a 4x increase in power level to a 10x increase in megatons ratio that puts Goku at an ouput greater than 100 Nonillion megatons of force. Thats enough to destroy several solar systems at full power.

Thanks again, I'll need to be more careful with the DB wiki.

One more question- I know it'd be fan-made but, is there a particular fan-made power level list most people agree seems the best estimate fans can come up with? My own personal formula for fusion was that it's the combined power level of 2 characters multiplied by 50. (since Goten and Trunks may have been nothing to Goku, but their combined might multiplied by 50 kind of just "felt" like something that might surpass Goku) (also estimated to 100X, though obviously Vegeta isn't equal to Goku at all)

[TheMightyOzaru]

Umm Gogeta's power level is NOT 2,500,000,000. That is from a scan promoting Budokai 3. The reason this doesn't work is because Cooler's power level is 475,000,000 according to these same scans. If thats the case SSJ Goku's is greater than 475,000,000. SSJ3 is 8x stronger than that meaning Goku's SSJ3 Power Level in Cooler's Revenge would be 3,800,000,000+. SSJ3 Goku(Cooler's Revenge) > SSJ Gogeta(Fusion Reborn)? I don't think so. Also there are no official power levels past Trunks suppressed power level against Mecha Freeza's troops. The highest recorded power level was 150,000,000 and that was SSJ Goku(Freeza Saga). Basically Goku is as strong as you interpret without being outlandish. I personally have him at 10,000,000,000,000 at SSJ4 if he went SSJ4 in the Buu saga. Using a 4x increase in power level to a 10x increase in megatons ratio that puts Goku at an ouput greater than 100 Nonillion megatons of force. Thats enough to destroy several solar systems at full power.

Thanks again, I'll need to be more careful with the DB wiki.

One more question- I know it'd be fan-made but, is there a particular fan-made power level list most people agree seems the best estimate fans can come up with? My own personal formula for fusion was that it's the combined power level of 2 characters multiplied by 50. (since Goten and Trunks may have been nothing to Goku, but their combined might multiplied by 50 kind of just "felt" like something that might surpass Goku) (also estimated to 100X, though obviously Vegeta isn't equal to Goku at all)

I actually present fusion with an A + B x 100. However I'm sure A + B x 50 works just fine. No there is no general power level list many people accept. Its really just one of those situations where you should guestimate your own. I've been around the internet and I have never found a list that was satisfactory. Heck I'm constantly changing mine because its hard to accurately guess what their power levels might be.

I actually just thought of another question in regards to this, that I don't know if it's been asked yet, but it may have...is Superman unique in his powers and strength, or is it known or can be assumed that all of the Kryptonians were that 'badass'? If so...how in the hell did an exploding planet manage to kill most of them?

All kryptonians generally are as badass as Superman. As to how he survived, Well Jarel, I'm not sure I spelled that right but its his dad, was doing some research on the planet and it apparently was going to self destruct within a short period of time. Braniac, a super computer programmed to help the Kryptonians, decided to betray the Kryptionians and tell them that Jarel's research on the planet was false. Seeing that there was no way to save everyone he sent his only son to planet Earth. If you are wondering why the Kryptonians couldn't survive a measly planet destruction, Planet Krypton is not only made of Kryptonite but it also orbits a red star. They were powerless when it was destroyed.

[GS7X7]

One question... are you sure Goku's highest stated power level manga/anime sources is 150 million and not 15 million?

[CaBrPi]

One question... are you sure Goku's highest stated power level manga/anime sources is 150 million and not 15 million?

Goku's power level as a Super Saiyan on Namek was given as 150,000,000, which gave him the edge over Full-Power Freeza's 120,000,000.

Official power levels after that are incredibly rare and... dubious, to say the least.

[Gyt Kaliba]

All kryptonians generally are as badass as Superman. As to how he survived, Well Jarel, I'm not sure I spelled that right but its his dad, was doing some research on the planet and it apparently was going to self destruct within a short period of time. Braniac, a super computer programmed to help the Kryptonians, decided to betray the Kryptionians and tell them that Jarel's research on the planet was false. Seeing that there was no way to save everyone he sent his only son to planet Earth. If you are wondering why the Kryptonians couldn't survive a measly planet destruction, Planet Krypton is not only made of Kryptonite but it also orbits a red star. They were powerless when it was destroyed.

I knew about the part with young Superman (or Kal El or whatever) being sent off planet, so that's how he survived - but the rest about the supercomputer tricking them, and the planet being made of the very stuff they're weak against and orbiting something to make them even weaker, I was unaware of. So basically, they got the short end of the stick.

So wait...on their home planet, they weren't super strong? I mean, at all, and not just not when in relation to the rest of their race? They were like normal humans there or something?

[TheMightyOzaru]

All kryptonians generally are as badass as Superman. As to how he survived, Well Jarel, I'm not sure I spelled that right but its his dad, was doing some research on the planet and it apparently was going to self destruct within a short period of time. Braniac, a super computer programmed to help the Kryptonians, decided to betray the Kryptionians and tell them that Jarel's research on the planet was false. Seeing that there was no way to save everyone he sent his only son to planet Earth. If you are wondering why the Kryptonians couldn't survive a measly planet destruction, Planet Krypton is not only made of Kryptonite but it also orbits a red star. They were powerless when it was destroyed.

I knew about the part with young Superman (or Kal El or whatever) being sent off planet, so that's how he survived - but the rest about the supercomputer tricking them, and the planet being made of the very stuff they're weak against and orbiting something to make them even weaker, I was unaware of. So basically, they got the short end of the stick.

So wait...on their home planet, they weren't super strong? I mean, at all, and not just not when in relation to the rest of their race? They were like normal humans there or something?

The red sun they orbit strips them of their power making them more or less normal.

[GS7X7]

One question... are you sure Goku's highest stated power level manga/anime sources is 150 million and not 15 million?

Goku's power level as a Super Saiyan on Namek was given as 150,000,000, which gave him the edge over Full-Power Freeza's 120,000,000.

Official power levels after that are incredibly rare and... dubious, to say the least.

Huh.... for some reason I just always remembered them as being in the tens of millions on some of the older power level lists I saw in the 2000s, but it's been a while.

[TheMightyOzaru]

One question... are you sure Goku's highest stated power level manga/anime sources is 150 million and not 15 million?

I'm quite sure. 15,000,000 is a mistranslation people used back in the day. It also makes no sense since people thought Goku's power level was 300,000. Thats lower than Freeza's first form and Goku was fighting on par with Freeza's final form(Suppressed). Goku's base has to be 3,000,000 to make sense.

[Gyt Kaliba]

The red sun they orbit strips them of their power making them more or less normal.

Probably a dumb question, but are they always close enough to that sun to be weakened, or does it work differently somehow than how our orbit with our sun does, somehow? I know that really doesn't have much to do with Goku or DB in this equation, but I'm just trying to fully understand the Superman angle here.

[TheMightyOzaru]

The red sun they orbit strips them of their power making them more or less normal.

Probably a dumb question, but are they always close enough to that sun to be weakened, or does it work differently somehow than how our orbit with our sun does, somehow? I know that really doesn't have much to do with Goku or DB in this equation, but I'm just trying to fully understand the Superman angle here.

A Kryptonian's powers are only activated when they absorb enough yellow or blue sunlight. If for some reason they were out of range of a red star and happen to orbit a yellow star then their weakness to Kryptonite would activate effectively killing them very slowly.

[CaBrPi]

The red sun they orbit strips them of their power making them more or less normal.

Probably a dumb question, but are they always close enough to that sun to be weakened, or does it work differently somehow than how our orbit with our sun does, somehow? I know that really doesn't have much to do with Goku or DB in this equation, but I'm just trying to fully understand the Superman angle here.

The red sun doesn't actually *strip* them of their powers, it just doesn't grant them powers, because of the difference in the radiation levels put out. Blue stars are hotter than yellow stars, which are hotter than red stars, so they need the radiation of a higher spectrum than red. Or something. The distance is irrelevant, unless it was a binary star system, and it's not.

Also, wasn't there some sort of radiation that turned the remains of planet Krypton into Kryptonite? I don't remember.