Base Saiyans' PL.

[hleV]

She was shown to be at leisure, sure, but there's no reason to believe she held back any actual strength because that's never substantiated anywhere.

How is there no reason to believe that #18, who's literally millions of times stronger than normal humans, would not hold back against someone who's still a human according to her, just an "unusually strong" one? Especially when she's participating in the TB only for the prize money, meaning she couldn't risk killing her opponent because that means disqualification. You're giving too little credit to #18.

Notice how Trunks doesn't say "we can't win," he says "we can't win like this." One could take that to mean "we can't win in our base forms," but he doesn't seem to have going Super Saiyan in mind until Goten brings it up, which is why I take the quote to mean "we can't win in the costume."

Yes, you seem to be right about that - Trunks was complaining about the costume rather than the base form. However, that only proves that base Trunks without the costume would have a chance against #18 at THAT level of power.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Doesn't the JSAT have them fight without Super Saiyan, though?

Yeah, but Tarble is the one who says that Abo and Kado are as strong as Freeza, and he should only know of Freeza's first form's power. So all four combatants in that initial exchange are below Freeza's final form IMO.

[Saiga]

Doesn't the JSAT have them fight without Super Saiyan, though?

Yeah, but Tarble is the one who says that Abo and Kado are as strong as Freeza, and he should only know of Freeza's first form's power. So all four combatants in that initial exchange are below Freeza's final form IMO.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't put a hard limit on their Super Saiyan forms.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

What I'm saying is that it doesn't put a hard limit on their Super Saiyan forms.

No, it doesn't. Depending on how you want to interpret lines (just like with the rest of the series), they could theoretically be anywhere from 26,500,000 to 6,000,000,000 based on Freeza's known range of power.

[Mystic Gohan]

Doesn't the JSAT have them fight without Super Saiyan, though?

Yeah, but Tarble is the one who says that Abo and Kado are as strong as Freeza, and he should only know of Freeza's first form's power. So all four combatants in that initial exchange are below Freeza's final form IMO.

Do you really think that after the Boo saga, as bloated as the Boo saga was that Abo and Kado are only as strong as 1st form Freeza?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Do you really think that after the Boo saga, as bloated as the Boo saga was that Abo and Kado are only as strong as 1st form Freeza?

Yes, yes I do.

[Enbi]

How is there no reason to believe that #18, who's literally millions of times stronger than normal humans, would not hold back against someone who's still a human according to her, just an "unusually strong" one? Especially when she's participating in the TB only for the prize money, meaning she couldn't risk killing her opponent because that means disqualification. You're giving too little credit to #18.

If she was holding back to fight humans, she wouldn't have started off fighting the base kids roughly evenly because the base kids >>>>>> 5. She's already realized he isn't an ordinary human before the fight even began:

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P12.2
Context: talking about the two disguised as Mighty Mask
No.18: “…That weird long-torso freak isn’t anyone ordinary…His small arms had surprisingly powerful punches.”

As for not risking to kill her opponent, she uses a chi blast against them, which isn't something you'd do to a normal human, as it'd more than likely kill them unless fired by a weakling (in comparison to 18) like Spopovich (or if you're protected by the plot like Mr. Satan ).

All I can do is just go with the feats, which show the base kids having a fair disadvantage while restricted, and which don't have any statements implying/telling us about #18 suppressing or holding back. It's okay for the feats to be contradicted by a statement, but not an assumption.

[TobyS]

Do you really think that after the Boo saga, as bloated as the Boo saga was that Abo and Kado are only as strong as 1st form Freeza?

Yes, yes I do.

Yeah that was the punchline to whole joke, some villains who turned up too late. Who's powerlevel was irrelevant.

[Rocketman]

I'm tired of all this feat fetish.

[Enbi]

I'm tired of all this feat fetish.

It's either the manga feats or baseless assumptions...

[hleV]

If she was holding back to fight humans, she wouldn't have started off fighting the base kids roughly evenly because the base kids >>>>>> 5.

Because Mighty Mask was not an ordinary human.

She's already realized he isn't an ordinary human before the fight even began

Unordinary. But human.

As for not risking to kill her opponent, she uses a chi blast against him, which isn't something you'd do to a normal human.

Mighty Mask was not an ordinary human.

All I can do is just go with the feats, which show the base kids having a fair disadvantage while restricted, and which don't have any statements implying/telling us about #18 suppressing or holding back. It's okay for the feats to be contradicted by a statement, but not an assumption.

That's like saying that Goku, who in base form was on par with 800 kiri Yakon, was using all of his power as a SSJ, which was only 3,000 kiri. We know that Goku has full control over his SSJ form and only wanted to lighten the environment, and that SSJ is a 50x multiplier. Nothing shows/implies that he didn't use full power, but in order to work things out without them contradicing shit, we can only come up with perfectly plausible (and in-character) assumptions.

[Mystic Gohan]

Do you really think that after the Boo saga, as bloated as the Boo saga was that Abo and Kado are only as strong as 1st form Freeza?

Yes, yes I do.

Yeah that was the punchline to whole joke, some villains who turned up too late. Who's powerlevel was irrelevant.

Well the point was, Tarble shouldn't be referring Abo and Cado to first form Freeza, because they are supposed to be a good match-up for the boys, and well....the boys would decimate someone with a pl of 530,000.

[Dabooyaka]

Why are Abo and Cado relevant to this debate?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Why are Abo and Cado relevant to this debate?

Good question. They aren't. I don't know why people keep bringing this up. Furthermore in the manga version of the special, Ava and Kado couldn't even touch Trunks and Goten. Ava and Kado being around Freeza's first form is irrelevant when calculating Goten and Trunks' base power levels.

[Dabooyaka]

Using Abo and Cado as evidence is the same as arguing that Bardock is the legendary Super Saiyan. It doesn't fly with me. Sure, those specials are fun, but when they blatantly contradict the canon source, they fall in the same tiers as movies.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Using Abo and Cado as evidence is the same as arguing that Bardock is the legendary Super Saiyan. It doesn't fly with me. Sure, those specials are fun, but when they blatantly contradict the canon source, they fall in the same tiers as movies.

Except that the manga versions of these two don't contradict the manga.

[Saiga]

You could argue that they do. Tarble definitely contradicts Vegeta's claim that only he, Kakarot and Gohan were the surviving Saiyans and time travel worked differently in the Bardock manga. Plus he doesn't have the same injuries that he did in his manga cameo.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You could argue that they do. Tarble definitely contradicts Vegeta's claim that only he, Kakarot and Gohan were the surviving Saiyans

True, though it's not a major contradiction.

Plus he doesn't have the same injuries that he did in his manga cameo.

Retcon.

time travel worked differently in the Bardock manga.

No. Trunks said that his Time Machine was imperfect, which was the reason many different Timelines were created. Bardock seems to have make a "perfect" time travel.

[Saiga]

Oh, I know they're minor. A retcon is still a contradiction though, and while Bardock's time travel can be easily explained it could easily be viewed as a contradiction because it's not clearly laid out. That's more of a grey area IMO.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Either way, these minor contradictions don't bring them to the same level as the movies, IMO. For me, their "canonicity level" (of the manga versions) is above the anime, but below the manga.