How does Ultimate Gohan really compare to Ssj3 Goku?

[Undertaker]

This is because Ultimate Gohan might had not being in his mightiest warriors self after being absorbed by Boo. That's debatable.

Why? He's eyes are still enclosed. And he looked like this before going to fight. I can't see anything suggesting in the manga that Gohan lost his power.

SSjin Gotenks (Pre) is at least equal to SSjin 3 Goku.

I believe that SS Gotenks (post) is a little weaker than SS3 Goku, because I can. Nothing goes against it.

Inoccent Boo is Good Boo while Fat Boo is Majin Boo. All the Boos are Majin Boo but still.

Below are the official names of all the forms of Majin Boo:

Majin Boo (Innocent/Good)/Mr. Boo


Note:
Majin Boo (Innocent): before expelling his evil side.
Majin Boo (Good): after expelling his evil side.
Mr. Boo: after getting expelled from Pure Boo.

Majin Boo (Pure Evil)


Majin Boo (Evil)


Majin Boo (Gotenks & Piccolo absorbed)


Majin Boo (Piccolo, Goten & Trunks absorbed)


Majin Boo (Gohan, Piccolo, Goten & Trunks absorbed)


Majin Boo (Piccolo absorbed)


Majin Boo (Kaioshin or the South absorbed)


Majin Boo (Pure)

Gohan looks different. His hair is softer and since the Djin cancels the Kai thing like Vegito inside Boo, etc etc. Toriyama also changed his mind and he wanted Goku to beat Boo so maybe he wanted Goku to be the strongest in the end.

Goku said SSjin Gotenks (Pre) would be stronger than him and would beat Fat Bo. SSjin Gotenks (Pre) was felt from the Kaioshin Planet where only SSjin 3 Goku was felt. SSjin Gotenks (Pre) > SSjin 3 Goku is uncontradicted fact.

Good Boo and Mr Boo are the same, no?

This is an issue that people keep bringing up. We all know that Gohan is stronger than Goku, but by how much is the question? I've people have Gohan 1000x stronger than Goku, and frankly, I think that's just stupid.
When I saw this quote, I think I may have found a small implications as to how they compare.
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…

Now, what does this quote say? The people have to be relatively close in body shape AND POWER, and then they have to make their Ki's identical. That means that Ultimate Gohan, and Super Saiyan 3 Goku should be close in power. Now, how close? Well, that's up to you to think whatever you want. I just know that Gohan being hundreds of times stronger than Goku doesn't qualify as being close in power.

Then we have Goku saying the he wanted to use the metamorian fusion with Gohan to kill Boo.

Finally, we have Goku saying that he wasn't able to try out in the afterlife because there was nobody on par with him, so him trying it was impossible. Now, what does this tell us?

That while Gohan is stronger than Goku, the difference is not a ridiculous as some people might think..

Thoughts?

considering this quote is well before Gohan goes mystic it is a non point. Furthermore Gohan can lower his power level to match that of Goku's. It wouldn't make the fusion as powerful but it would be enough to get the job done. Lastly SSJ3 Goku states outright he can't take Super Buu where as Gohan mutilated him. I have Gohan at 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku from the Buu saga. Now there is something interesting to note here though:
Akira Toriyama:"When it comes to battle, the most important thing is KI SIZE, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe"
1, Toriyama states outright that Goku is the strongest in the universe.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-best/
Its also stated in the Daizenshuu's that Goku is the number 1 strongest in the universe. This would lead me to believe that Goku does surpass Gohan somewhere within the 10 year time period. I personally think SSJ3 Goku is a little over twice as strong as Gohan was when he became mystic 10 years ago. Now of course we could also assume that Gohan lost his mystic form somewhere along the way thus making Toriyama's and the Guides statement correct without having to make Goku stronger than Gohan was 10 years ago. With the new movie coming out it would seem Gohan has lost his mystic power up so we can't really say for sure whether SSJ3 Goku ever did surpass Gohan's full power. I personally think he did but thats just my opinion.

You do realize that what you just said means nothing? Toriyama just talked about his main hero who trained to get always stronger. That has absolutely nothing about the Boo Saga. I think EOZ SSjin 3 Goku is still weaker than Ultimate Gohan. EOZ Base Goku is definitely weaker than his Boo Saga SSjin 3 self while Base Gotenks (Post) surpasses even that IMO.

The only thing to imply it is Piccolo's comment which turns out to be completely and utterly wrong.

Super Boo (rosat) >>> base Gotenks (post) ~ Super Boo (outside rosat). Simple.

That's... not very simple at all. Why did Super Boo's strength change without any visible power up? Why didn't Piccolo notice?

Because Boo's ki is like a lie stated by Goku. Three statements can't be ignored and Piccolo basically said Base Gotenks (Post) >> SSjin Gotenks (Pre). Piccolo was not wrong. Evil Boo was just underestimated. Plus, Trunks said the same and Goten never contradicted him.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Gohan looks different. His hair is softer and since the Djin cancels the Kai thing like Vegito inside Boo, etc etc. Toriyama also changed his mind and he wanted Goku to beat Boo so maybe he wanted Goku to be the strongest in the end.

I know he looks different. I posted a picture of him being different. However, he looked like this before as well.

That's how Gohan looked before the power-up:


After the power up he looked like he did after his revival, until he left for the battle:

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... c34647.jpg http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... bf610b.jpg

And after his revival, he looked exactly like he did in the Kaioshin Realm:


Now, compare base Gohan before the power-up, and "suppressed" Ultimate Gohan. They look exactly the same, except for the eyes. "Suppressed" Ultimate Gohan's eyes are fully outlined (and stayed like that even 10 years later), while base Gohan's eyes are not.

Goku said SSjin Gotenks (Pre) would be stronger than him and would beat Fat Bo. SSjin Gotenks (Pre) was felt from the Kaioshin Planet where only SSjin 3 Goku was felt. SSjin Gotenks (Pre) > SSjin 3 Goku is uncontradicted fact.

Hmm, checking the Strength Checker, Goku expected SS Gotenks to be stronger than him, and I believe that Goku's estimations were true, so I guess I'll go with SS Gotenks (pre) > SS3 Goku.

Good Boo and Mr Boo are the same, no?

Not sure, in terms of power. Pure Evil Boo had some Kaioshin power in him, but when he absorbed Good Boo (and transformed into Evil Boo), that Kaioshin power was possibly transfered in Good Boo, which is probably why when he was removed from Evil Boo's system, Evil Boo reverted into Pure Boo, instead of Pure Evil Boo.

[Mystic Gohan]

The only thing to imply it is Piccolo's comment which turns out to be completely and utterly wrong.

Super Boo (rosat) >>> base Gotenks (post) ~ Super Boo (outside rosat). Simple.

That's... not very simple at all. Why did Super Boo's strength change without any visible power up? Why didn't Piccolo notice?

Why would Piccolo AND Gotenks be completely wrong. Before Super Boo comes in, Trunks thinks his base form will be on par with Super Boo. Piccolo senses them and realizes they have a better chance now, then they did outside at least. Then Super Boo powers up invisibly, like he did when he went to full power. And Piccolo does notice, which is why he facepalms.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why would Piccolo AND Gotenks be completely wrong.

Because that's what we saw? Base Gotenks couldn't even move Evil Boo with his punches.

[Mystic Gohan]

Why would Piccolo AND Gotenks be completely wrong.

Because that's what we saw? Base Gotenks couldn't even move Evil Boo with his punches.

He powered up, just like he did without us noticing after Gotenks went SSjin 3 and just like Freeza and Cell did.

[Undertaker]

Gohan looks different. His hair is softer and since the Djin cancels the Kai thing like Vegito inside Boo, etc etc. Toriyama also changed his mind and he wanted Goku to beat Boo so maybe he wanted Goku to be the strongest in the end.

I know he looks different. I posted a picture of him being different. However, he looked like this before as well.
That's how Gohan looked before the power-up:
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... DH/5-1.jpg
After the power up he looked like he did after his revival, until he left for the battle:
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... c34647.jpg http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... bf610b.jpg
And after his revival, he looked exactly like he did in the Kaioshin Realm:
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... DH/194.jpg
Now, compare base Gohan before the power-up, and "suppressed" Ultimate Gohan. They look exactly the same, except for the eyes. "Suppressed" Ultimate Gohan's eyes are fully outlined (and stayed like that even 10 years later), while base Gohan's eyes are not.

Goku said SSjin Gotenks (Pre) would be stronger than him and would beat Fat Bo. SSjin Gotenks (Pre) was felt from the Kaioshin Planet where only SSjin 3 Goku was felt. SSjin Gotenks (Pre) > SSjin 3 Goku is uncontradicted fact.

Hmm, checking the Strength Checker, Goku expected SS Gotenks to be stronger than him, and I believe that Goku's estimations were true, so I guess I'll go with SS Gotenks (pre) > SS3 Goku.

Good Boo and Mr Boo are the same, no?

Not sure, in terms of power. Pure Evil Boo had some Kaioshin power in him, but when he absorbed Good Boo (and transformed into Evil Boo), that Kaioshin power was possibly transfered in Good Boo, which is probably why when he was removed from Evil Boo's system, Evil Boo reverted into Pure Boo, instead of Pure Evil Boo.

Where do you get those scans? So Gohan has a suppressed state? That's cool. Why should they be different when they are the same Boo?

[Fox666]

deleted

[Undertaker]

Why would Piccolo AND Gotenks be completely wrong.

Because that's what we saw? Base Gotenks couldn't even move Evil Boo with his punches.

Initial Evil Boo (false ki) ~ Base Gotenks (Post) That was Evil Boo's initial and false ki. Piccolo sensed Base Gotenks (Post) > SSjin Gotenks (Pre).

[Saiga]

Boo powering up invisibly is pure bullshit. I'm sorry, but it is. There's nothing to imply that at all.

[Undertaker]

Boo powering up invisibly is pure bullshit. I'm sorry, but it is. There's nothing to imply that at all.

Evil Boo was underestimated. His ki is like a lie stated by Goku.

[hleV]

Evil Boo was underestimated. His ki is like a lie stated by Goku.

Or you're imagining things.

[Saiga]

Boo powering up invisibly is pure bullshit. I'm sorry, but it is. There's nothing to imply that at all.

Evil Boo was underestimated. His ki is like a lie stated by Goku.

Goku was lying during that exchange. Later he fully admits he knew he could beat Boo.

[Undertaker]

Evil Boo was underestimated. His ki is like a lie stated by Goku.

Or you're imagining things.

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”

[Undertaker]

Boo powering up invisibly is pure bullshit. I'm sorry, but it is. There's nothing to imply that at all.

Evil Boo was underestimated. His ki is like a lie stated by Goku.

Goku was lying during that exchange. Later he fully admits he knew he could beat Boo.

He was lying when he said he could not beaten Boo but not when he said his ki was like a lie. He has no reason to say such a thing.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Calling it is a "suppressed state" is a bit of a stretch, it is not different of what Goku could do as a Super Saiyan during the Cell Games.

Goku's characteristics & hair didn't change when he powered-up though. Gohan's hair changed, and his eyes stayed "locked" into the "angry eyes" look.
Thinking about it though, calling it "suppressed state" is wrong, since at the Kaioshin Realm, he looked different, but wasn't suppressed, since he had just unleashed his new power. It's more like a "non-battle state".

Why should they be different when they are the same Boo?

Because he possibly got the Kaioshin power that Pure Evil Boo had inside him. Besides, while Innocent Boo & Good Boo looked the same, but their personality & power were not the same. Good Boo didn't have any evil in him (unlike Innocent Boo), and Good Boo was much weaker than Innocent Boo.

Initial Evil Boo (false ki) ~ Base Gotenks (Post) That was Evil Boo's initial and false ki. Piccolo sensed Base Gotenks (Post) > SSjin Gotenks (Pre).

It was just a gag. Just look at the lines:

Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”

...

Piccolo: “…Th-this may be hopeless…”

Even if you take this seriously, maybe Piccolo believed that Super Saiyan Gotenks would manage to beat Boo, but got desperate when he saw Gotenks attacking in base.

[Saiga]

He was lying when he said he could not beaten Boo but not when he said his ki was like a lie. He has no reason to say such a thing.

It's the same sentence. And Boo's power being "like a lie" helps make his lie sound more convincing.

[Bussani]

Evil Boo was underestimated. His ki is like a lie stated by Goku.

Wasn't he talking about the Fat Buu, not the Evil Buu? And besides, "his ki is like a lie" is just a rather Japanese way of saying "his strength is unbelievable". He's not literally calling it a lie.

Good Boo and Mr Boo are the same, no?

According to the narrator, Buu's evil half took the majority of his power when it split off from him.

Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4
Context: as the two Boos fight
Narrator: “The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one…"

Assuming Mr Buu never got that back (since he never reabsorbed the evil half--rather, he was absorbed by it, but then freed by Vegeta), shouldn't he be at least half as strong as he was before?

[dbzfan7]

I don't see the quote as meaning much. Goku says that you need to be close in power, but it is clear that no matter what your gap is, Goku is nowhere near Mystic Gohan's power.

As for my personal gaps, well I have rather large gaps going by: Mystic Gohan >> SSjin 3 Gotenks >>> SSjin 2 Gotenks >>> SSjin Gotenks Post >>> base Gotenks Post >>> SSjin Gotenks Pre > SSjin 3 Goku.

I am not so sure about base Gotenks post getting stronger then pre. But I got a similar listing.

Mystic Gohan >> SSjin 3 Gotenks >>>> SSjin 2 Gotenks >> SSjin Gotenks Post > FP SSjin 3 Goku <=> SSjin Gotenks Pre > SSjin 3 Goku(holding back)

[TheMightyOzaru]

This is an issue that people keep bringing up. We all know that Gohan is stronger than Goku, but by how much is the question? I've people have Gohan 1000x stronger than Goku, and frankly, I think that's just stupid.
When I saw this quote, I think I may have found a small implications as to how they compare.
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…

Now, what does this quote say? The people have to be relatively close in body shape AND POWER, and then they have to make their Ki's identical. That means that Ultimate Gohan, and Super Saiyan 3 Goku should be close in power. Now, how close? Well, that's up to you to think whatever you want. I just know that Gohan being hundreds of times stronger than Goku doesn't qualify as being close in power.

Then we have Goku saying the he wanted to use the metamorian fusion with Gohan to kill Boo.

Finally, we have Goku saying that he wasn't able to try out in the afterlife because there was nobody on par with him, so him trying it was impossible. Now, what does this tell us?

That while Gohan is stronger than Goku, the difference is not a ridiculous as some people might think..

Thoughts?

considering this quote is well before Gohan goes mystic it is a non point. Furthermore Gohan can lower his power level to match that of Goku's. It wouldn't make the fusion as powerful but it would be enough to get the job done. Lastly SSJ3 Goku states outright he can't take Super Buu where as Gohan mutilated him. I have Gohan at 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku from the Buu saga. Now there is something interesting to note here though:
Akira Toriyama:"When it comes to battle, the most important thing is KI SIZE, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe"
1, Toriyama states outright that Goku is the strongest in the universe.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-best/
Its also stated in the Daizenshuu's that Goku is the number 1 strongest in the universe. This would lead me to believe that Goku does surpass Gohan somewhere within the 10 year time period. I personally think SSJ3 Goku is a little over twice as strong as Gohan was when he became mystic 10 years ago. Now of course we could also assume that Gohan lost his mystic form somewhere along the way thus making Toriyama's and the Guides statement correct without having to make Goku stronger than Gohan was 10 years ago. With the new movie coming out it would seem Gohan has lost his mystic power up so we can't really say for sure whether SSJ3 Goku ever did surpass Gohan's full power. I personally think he did but thats just my opinion.

You do realize that what you just said means nothing? Toriyama just talked about his main hero who trained to get always stronger. That has absolutely nothing about the Boo Saga. I think EOZ SSjin 3 Goku is still weaker than Ultimate Gohan. EOZ Base Goku is definitely weaker than his Boo Saga SSjin 3 self while Base Gotenks (Post) surpasses even that IMO.

Because Boo's ki is like a lie stated by Goku. Three statements can't be ignored and Piccolo basically said Base Gotenks (Post) >> SSjin Gotenks (Pre). Piccolo was not wrong. Evil Boo was just underestimated. Plus, Trunks said the same and Goten never contradicted him.

Why is Toriyama's statement mean nothing? He said Goku was the strongest so why is it meaningless? Main character or not Toriyama said he was the strongest. In the Daiz Toriyama didn't make that statement its just stated. These are legitimate points. You don't have to believe Goku is stronger than Gohan was 10 years ago but its implied that Goku is the best by the end of Z. Also, whats stopping Gohan from lowering his power to fuse with Goku? Obviously he isn't 100x stronger, thats absurd, however 10x stronger is still a rather large difference. Gotenks getting over 50x stronger within a matter of hours is a stupid accusation. I'm sorry but that is just absurd.

[Mystic Gohan]

Boo powering up invisibly is pure bullshit. I'm sorry, but it is. There's nothing to imply that at all.

Cell and Freeza both did it.