Piccolo

HP · Post by HP » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:34 pm

When, in the story, do you guys think Piccolo turned good? Or better; when do you think he began to leave that demon attitude?
I think something happened with Piccolo right after Goku gave him the senju-bean (or whatever the right name is), after the Tenka-Ichi defeat.
Along the next years, what he had in mind was not to conquer the Earth, but only to revenge his defeat with Son Goku. So he trained to become stronger than Goku in order to beat him... But that's it!
I don't think he still had the intention to curse the world.

Piccolo was very changed. That was noticeable when Radditz appeared in front of him, and later when he went to meet Goku and propose to join forces.

Of course he would never admit it (even wanted to demonstrate otherwise), but he was no longer the prince of evil.

What do you think?

DaemonCorps · Post by **DaemonCorps** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:38 pm

Yep, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. However, not much about Piccolo changing was actually said in the series until you see Kami talking to Popo about how Piccolo is treating Gohan differently than normal people. 'course, I forget if that part was filler or not

.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:02 pm

DaemonCorps wrote:Yep, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. However, not much about Piccolo changing was actually said in the series until you see Kami talking to Popo about how Piccolo is treating Gohan differently than normal people. 'course, I forget if that part was filler or not .

Does it matter if it's filler or not? I'm starting to get the feeling that anyone who says "Well, if it was filler, then it doesn't matter in any way" should definitely be considered a manga purist. There's nothing wrong with being a purist to the manga, as long as you can openly state it, kinda like how I openly state I'm an anime purist. But just saying "Oh, well, that's filler so that can't count" just seems very anally retentive about saying what's canon, especially if you'd be talking about the anime universe, which on its own is a separate canon from the manga (though the Bardock special could be said to be a duel-canon incident for both the anime and manga).

*ends rant*

DaemonCorps · Post by **DaemonCorps** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:26 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:
DaemonCorps wrote:Yep, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. However, not much about Piccolo changing was actually said in the series until you see Kami talking to Popo about how Piccolo is treating Gohan differently than normal people. 'course, I forget if that part was filler or not .
Does it matter if it's filler or not? I'm starting to get the feeling that anyone who says "Well, if it was filler, then it doesn't matter in any way" should definitely be considered a manga purist. There's nothing wrong with being a purist to the manga, as long as you can openly state it, kinda like how I openly state I'm an anime purist. But just saying "Oh, well, that's filler so that can't count" just seems very anally retentive about saying what's canon, especially if you'd be talking about the anime universe, which on its own is a separate canon from the manga (though the Bardock special could be said to be a duel-canon incident for both the anime and manga).

*ends rant*

Well, in some occasions, the filler disproves stuff. But on other occasions, the filler makes some moments even better (VegettoEX's example: the Z Senshi helping Gohan defeat Cell).*

If the moment with Kami that I was thinking about in my previous post was filler, then I think it would be the good kind, since it is clear the Piccolo was beginning to soften up.

*NOTE: That's kinda the same thing with you being an anime purist. If you're all out there, then that means you think that the DBs were made from one original ball that the Nameks kept fighting over and believe that all seven of the balls were made by the eldest namek (which doesn't make much sense). You gotta weed out the stuff you don't believe in to reach the main core of what you consider "canon."

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:40 pm

Well, back onto the subject of the green, mean, kick-@$$ machine...

Wasn't something stated early on (maybe as early as during/before his Tenkaichi fight with Goku) about how Piccolo was already different from Daimaou?

Also, I seem to remember a short scene during a thunderstorm before the tourney, where Piccolo saved some people by blowing up falling debris.

Then again, ironically, I think both those points may have been filler.

HP · Post by HP » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:02 pm

May have been filler, and he was just practicing his beam

not saving the kid!

masenko · Post by **masenko** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:27 pm

When Piccolo dies for Gohan. Nuff' said.

Domon · Post by **Domon** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:41 pm

Why is it that people nowaday are hung up on "canon"...?

On the subject of 'ol Big Green, he lost his evil edge by the time the Saiyan storyline started. Kami himself that Piccolo wasn't quite as evil as his "father", since Raditz went to hell instead of wandering in limbo(as anyone killed by Daimao would've).

As for the part where Ma Jr. saved the kid; that could be taken as an early hint of his lite evilness.

Chaos Saiyajin · Post by **Chaos Saiyajin** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:53 pm

Fuck canonicy, I like the anime and manga equally thank you.

I say when he dies for Gohan...

That was sad...Poor Piccolo..

Mike D · Post by **Mike D** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:36 am

Most of you guys are saying that his sacrificing his life for Gohan was his turning point. I agree but, let's not forget what his sole purpose for living was; conquer the world and to kill Goku.

Piccolo's things to do list:
1) Conquer the World
2) Kill Son Goku

As you know his plans were thwarted by Goku when he was defeated in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. After eating the senzu bean he was left to realize that Goku was a problem and his plans for conquering the world wouldn't be realized until Goku was killed.

Piccolo's things to do list:
1) Create a devastating attack to kill Son Goku
2) Kill Son Goku
3) Conquer the World

Raditz appeared a few years later, scared Piccolo with his power, and left to find "Kakarot". After shitting himself Piccolo realized that Raditz was a much bigger threat than Goku and he was going to need his help.

Piccolo's things to do list:
1) Join Son Goku to kill the new guy
2) Kill the New Guy
3) Use devastating attack to kill Son Goku
4) Kill Son Goku
5) Conquer the World

During the fight with Raditz, the two realized that their attacks were useless. This drew Goku to the conclusion of making the ultimate sacrifice. As you know already, Goku jumped on Raditz and held him for the killshot.

Piccolo got to kill two birds with one stone and cross 4 things off his list.

Piccolo's things to do list:
1) Conquer the World - Yay!

But things didn't end up the way Piccolo planned. Raditz told him of his two partners, that make him look like tree fungus, and they were headed to Earth.

Damn.

He needs Goku...again...

Piccolo's things to do list:
1) Train for incoming Saiyans
2) Wait for Son Goku to be reborn
3) Kill incoming Saiyans
4) Kill Son Goku...Again
5) Conquer the World

But Piccolo needed help until Goku came back. Luckily, he remembered that Gohan had great hidden potential and he knew that the boy would help.

Piccolo's things to do list:
1) Train boy for incoming Saiyans
2) Train for incoming Saiyans
3) Wait for Goku to be reborn
4) Kill incoming Saiyans
5) Kill Goku
6) Conquer the World

Notice a trend...

When the Saiyans arrived, they brought pets. Saibamen.

What the fuck!

Piccolo's things to do list:
1) Kill the fucking Saibamen
2) Wait for Son Goku to be reborn
3) Kill incoming Saiyans
4) Kill Son Goku
5) Conquer the World

After crossing out number one, Nappa handed out some ass-whoopins (for free of course) resulting in two casualties. Piccolo and Kuririn were left to fight until the two were put out. Gohan was left to fight. Alone. Piccolo was left on the ground. Unconscious.

Piccolo's things to do list:
1) Wake up
2) Wait for Son Goku to be reborn
3) Kill incoming Saiyans
4) Kill Son Goku
5) Conquer the World

Gohan did what he could until miraculously, Piccolo recovered.

Kuririn didn't...

Around this time Piccolo sensed an incredible force. It was Goku. Gohan told Piccolo to run and that he would fight until his father arrived. Nappa rushed the boy and Gohan brought the front end of his foot to the man's face pretty hard making him fly into some rocks and bleed. Nappa was pissed. He decided to end the boy's life with a heavy blast. Piccolo wasn't having that. He leaped infront of the blast to save his protege and he died seconds later.

He was sent to Kaiou, got wished back to Namek, fought Freeza, was wished to Earth, fought Androids, blah bluh-blah blah blah you know the rest.

Piccolo achieved part of his goal by killing Goku only to need his assistance again (silly Piccolo). I think that Piccolo started to change after he killed Goku (seeing as how revenge was more important than conquering the world). Piccolo's imaginary lists demonstrated that Piccolo's quest for world domination became less significant over time.

As I stated earlier, Piccolo got to kill Goku (a big step for him) and a lot of you are forgetting that. He grew attatched to Gohan and also began to respect Goku more. This shows with his deep concern for Goku on Planet Namek.

In conclusion, killing Goku must have satisfied him enough as he prepared himself for the tougher challenges ahead.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:25 am

Mike D, I agree with your statement and I enjoyed the comedic yet serious "to do lists" laying out Piccolo's priorities. I want to pick up where you left off with my impressions.

Piccolo died for Gohan because they had become friends. This doesn't mean that his "to do list" changed after that. Sure it became less and less the dominant thought in his mind over time, that much is certain. I don't think he made the full conversion from evil until much later. We se during the training with North Kaio that he is still power hungry to an extent and ready to take on Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Choutzu without hesitation.

Piccolo returns to life to face Freeza. He meets Nail and merges with him, but remains (mostly) the dominant entity. The inclusion of Nail's personality and ethics pushes that World domination thing farther from his mind than before. Now he had a heritage and a race to avenge. Piccolo helped Goku prepare for the Spirit Bomb and tried to distract Freeza long enough for Goku to use it.

By that point his goal was to stop Freeza, and he realized Goku was the only one who even stood a slight chance of stopping him. He admits later that he never felt the joy he thought he would when he killed Goku. I think after he killed him and then came back to Namek his will to kill Goku was gone. He still hated him, but he already got the killing "out of his system" so to speak.

He and Goku teamed up to fight Freeza, but that was still out of necessity at that point and nothing else. Then at the threat of the Androids Krillin mentions to Bulma that it may be a good thing that a new enemy will surface. He says if there wasn't common enemy that Goku, Piccolo, and Vegeta would revert to fighting each other again.

Goku and Gohan invite Piccolo to train with them. In the anime we see Goku and Piccolo sparing. Piccolo puts a cut on Goku's cheek and Goku does the same. They freeze mid-attack and stare at each other for a moment then smile. I think THAT is when Goku and Piccolo finally came to terms with thier rivalry and became friends. The cycle to good was very nearly complete then.

When Piccolo goes to remerge with Kami he yells at Trunks and Krillin and says he is evil and still has plans to Conquer earth. He has no such ambitions anymore by that point. He says that in anger because he want them to leave him alone for awhile and isn't thrilled with having to go confront Kami and ask for his help again.

When he remerges with Kami he is pure and total good again because the Good half and the once evil but now good half remerge and Piccolo's purging of his own evil is complete.

Azure · Post by **Azure** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:44 am

I don't think Piccolo (Jnr) is ever actually as evil as his father, when he was created his sole purpose was to kill Goku when that failed and Goku showed him kindness I think it scewed his whole picture of him.

HP · Post by HP » Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:53 am

I really think Piccolo started to be "good" much earlier than you guys think.
Does a demon give apples to a kid, to feed him?

Azure wrote:I don't think Piccolo (Jnr) is ever actually as evil as his father, when he was created his sole purpose was to kill Goku when that failed and Goku showed him kindness I think it scewed his whole picture of him.

Yes.

Surely, Piccolo wasn't a fully good guy, but not a bad one as well, too!

HP wrote:Of course he would never admit it (even wanted to demonstrate otherwise), but he was no longer the prince of evil.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:06 pm

Akira wrote:Krillin mentions to Bulma that it may be a good thing that a new enemy will surface. He says if there wasn't common enemy that Goku, Piccolo, and Vegeta would revert to fighting each other again.

Kuririn - "Piccolo may be okay now, but without a common enemy, who knows what Vegeta would do?"

Juwa?

--------------------------------------------------------

The first step of Piccolo's "goodness" was the way he "just left" after Son revived him with a Senzu after their bout. Sure, he taunts a bit, but if he were "purely evil" then he would've tried to do something to satisfy his anger...like kill Bulma or Chaozu or sneak attack Goku again or something.

A big part of it for him, also, was experiencing the concept of being weak. Both him and his "greatest rival" were weaklings next to a low level Saiyan. Perhaps he began to see a bit of what it was like, and he had done to many what that Saiyan was doing to him.

Gohan obviously played a huge role, because he was the first person to ever really talk to Piccolo, and gave the Namekian something to value other than vengeance and himself.

Nail was part of it, too. Piccolo became more willing to show his "feelings" such as after Gohan's run-in with Stage 3 Freeza.

"H-he bounced that one back...but you've grown strong, Gohan. It...it makes me happy..."

And throughout Goku's fight with Freeza, Piccolo doesn't seem frustrated or anything, and most of the time has a grin on his face. He doesn't resent his rivals huge strength advantage over him. After the Genki-Dama, Piccolo help's Goku out of the water, and before that saved him from being shot in the face by Freeza.

A lot of these things some people might say were "Piccolo taking advantage of Goku so that he could survive." but that's kinda shallow. Honestly, you have to give him credit moreso than that.

I guess that's my two cents.

Post by **TripleRach** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:49 pm

I think Piccolo was definitely different from the moment of reincarnation. Even throughout the 23rd Budoukai, he seemed somewhat more reasonable, and less explody. (Would his father have actually gone through a tournament? And hell, I think Taopaipai might have actually been more brutal to the other contestants than he was.) The idea seems to be that when he was reborn, he gained a heart (a la the Tin Man, not the actual organ).

Gokuu's giving of the senzu may have had a bit of an effect, but I don't think it necessarily made him go, "Wow, that Gokuu sure is a nice guy. I don't want to be evil anymore." After all, he did still seem pretty intent on killing Gokuu. Though, when he killed Raditz, his soul didn't wander around in limbo the way others killed by the Mazoku had been. So clearly something was less evil before he'd ever interacted with Gohan. (In fact, I think Kami gives a speech on the subject at one point, implying that he's always been very different from his father.)

But then, of course, befriending Gohan clearly had quite an impact. He was obviously pretty emotional about sacrificing himself to save him. I don't think he really had much interest in world domination or killing Gokuu (again) after that, as he probably could have done the former rather easily while Gokuu was out in space following Namek's explosion, if he really wanted to.

He was still a bit grumpy after that, though. I don't think that ever completely went away, even after reuniting with Kami.

Kanzenshuu

Piccolo

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