SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Isn't that line a dub thing? In the dub she says "You might have not been strong enough to go SSJ4." You don't need to be strong to achieve the Golden Oozaru form at all and it surpasses SSJ3, I don't see a problem with being able to SSJ4 right off the bat. This just makes SSJ4 all the more superior. You don't have to waste time unlocking the other 2 humanoid forms.

It's not a dub thing. Vegeta asked Bulma why he didn't become a Super Saiyan 4 when he could control his Oozaru form in the past, and Bulma said that he needed more training.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Bulma said that you have to be strong enough to become a Golden Oozaru. The whole "you need SS & tail" is only fan theory, and a theory I strongly disagree with. Every Super Saiyan form had a power requirement, and Super Saiyan 4, the most powerful Saiyan form ever, only needs the user's battle power to be at around 3.000.000, while Super Saiyan 2, and especially 3, needed much, much greater battle power & training to achieve them? That's bullshit.

I don't agree.

The idea that you need to train and achieve a certain power is just a fan theory as well. I do agree they would come down to learning how to master/ control them, like with Great Ape and controlling its primal mode, but that's it; it would have nothing to do with how strong/ large your ki is. It would be like mastering a technique.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The idea that you need to train and achieve a certain power is just a fan theory as well.

No, it was stated in GT.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

The idea that you need to train and achieve a certain power is just a fan theory as well.

No, it was stated in GT.

I'll grant that in the world of GT, SSJ4 would most likely only be able to be achieved that way; regardless, Buruma isn't exactly an expert on Saiya-Jin biology. And besides, GT logic contradicts original, manga logic frequently. At the very least, the other SSJ forms can arguably be attained without this certain power you suggest.

[Bussani]

I sort of remember Bulma suggesting that Vegeta wasn't strong enough in the Saiyan arc to become a Golden Oozaru. Not "you weren't a Super Saiyan yet, so it didn't happen," but, "You weren't strong enough." I could be remembering wrong, though.

I also remember that she made him do some weird training in this gravity chair, but I can't remember if that was a prerequisite for him becoming a Super Saiyan 4, or if it was just to catch up to Goku's all around strength.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'll grant that in the world of GT, SSJ4 would most likely only be able to be achieved that way; regardless, Buruma isn't exactly an expert on Saiya-Jin biology. And besides, GT logic contradicts original, manga logic frequently.

What are you talking about? We are talking about Golden Oozaru & Super Saiyan 4, and both form only appeared in GT. They don't exist in the manga.

At the very least, the other SSJ forms can arguably be attained without this certain power you suggest.

SS Grade 2 & 3 and SS2 & 3 are stated to be achieved through intense training, which implies that you have to be at a certain power.

I sort of remember Bulma suggesting that Vegeta wasn't strong enough in the Saiyan arc to become a Golden Oozaru. Not "you weren't a Super Saiyan yet, so it didn't happen," but, "You weren't strong enough." I could be remembering wrong, though.

That's correct.

I also remember that she made him do some weird training in this gravity chair, but I can't remember if that was a prerequisite for him becoming a Super Saiyan 4, or if it was just to catch up to Goku's all around strength.

That's wrong. First we saw Vegeta training, then his conversation with Bulma.

[Bussani]

I also remember that she made him do some weird training in this gravity chair, but I can't remember if that was a prerequisite for him becoming a Super Saiyan 4, or if it was just to catch up to Goku's all around strength.

That's wrong. First we saw Vegeta training, then his conversation with Bulma.

Didn't they explain why he was doing the weird chair training at all?

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

What are you talking about? We are talking about Golden Oozaru & Super Saiyan 4, and both form only appeared in GT. They don't exist in the manga.

My point was that GT logic contradicts itself and is unreliable. If there was a SSJ4 in the manga, I bet this would've be so clear-cut. And I think the statements regarding Grade II and III SSJ can be interpreted as "training how to use SSJ", like how you would train to master a technique or ability, not just training to increase strength.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Isn't that line a dub thing? In the dub she says "You might have not been strong enough to go SSJ4." You don't need to be strong to achieve the Golden Oozaru form at all and it surpasses SSJ3, I don't see a problem with being able to SSJ4 right off the bat. This just makes SSJ4 all the more superior. You don't have to waste time unlocking the other 2 humanoid forms.

It's not a dub thing. Vegeta asked Bulma why he didn't become a Super Saiyan 4 when he could control his Oozaru form in the past, and Bulma said that he needed more training.

Umm first off Bulma says Baby's cells were interfering making it so he couldn't transform. I would also like the exact line from the Japanese version of the show because I don't remember Bulma saying anything about training. Furthermore Bulma isn't an expert on Saiyan biology so what she says doesn't have to be taken seriously. Seriously there should be no reason a Saiyan can't turn into a Golden Oozaru if he has a tail and SSJ.

[Bussani]

Seriously there should be no reason a Saiyan can't turn into a Golden Oozaru if he has a tail and SSJ.

The thing is, I'm not sure the show itself ever says that Super Saiyan is a prerequisite for Golden Oozaru. Interviews in the guides do seem to imply it by calling Super Saiyan 4 a hybrid of Super Saiyan and Oozaru, though, and it does seem like it would be pretty logical to make it work that way. But then again, even these guides don't technically say that you need to have achieved Super Saiyan for it to work, at least as far as I remember. Maybe a strong enough Saiyan who's never become a Super Saiyan would still become a Golden Oozaru when they saw a full moon? Whether you believe her or not is another matter, but it seemed like Bulma may have been implying that.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I remember hearing something about a Golden Great Ape possibly being the result of more than the usual amount of Blutz Waves to transform into a regular Oozaru.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Didn't they explain why he was doing the weird chair training at all?

Just usual everyday training Vegeta was doing.

My point was that GT logic contradicts itself and is unreliable. If there was a SSJ4 in the manga, I bet this would've be so clear-cut.

But there is not SS4 in the manga, so you either talk about GT, or about fan fiction.

And I think the statements regarding Grade II and III SSJ can be interpreted as "training how to use SSJ", like how you would train to master a technique or ability, not just training to increase strength.

But they are not techniques, they are transformations. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks had to get stronger to transform into Grade 2 & 3, Gohan was the strongest Saiyan when he transformed into Super Saiyan 2, and the rest of the Saiyans couldn't, and Goku was also the strongest Saiyan at the time when he transformed into a Super Saiyan 3. Later, Gotenks was way stronger than Goku, and he easily managed to transform into a Super Saiyan 3. All these scream to me that like the first transformation, the rest of them have also a power requirement.

Umm first off Bulma says Baby's cells were interfering making it so he couldn't transform.

I'm not talking about that time, I'm talking about when he was still with Nappa, that's the time Vegeta is talking about.

I would also like the exact line from the Japanese version of the show because I don't remember Bulma saying anything about training.

Vegeta: B-but still, I haven't lost my rationality, even after becoming a Great Ape, since long ago. So then, why wouldn't I have become Super Saiyan 4 before now?
Bulma: Hmm... Perhaps, as Son-ku would put it, it's because you didn't have enough training.

Furthermore Bulma isn't an expert on Saiyan biology so what she says doesn't have to be taken seriously. Seriously there should be no reason a Saiyan can't turn into a Golden Oozaru if he has a tail and SSJ.

While it was a theory of Bulma, if the writers of GT believed that Golden Oozaru is possible just by having a tail & Super Saiyan, then they would have Bulma say "Perhaps because you couldn't become a Super Saiyan back then.", or something like that.

I remember hearing something about a Golden Great Ape possibly being the result of more than the usual amount of Blutz Waves to transform into a regular Oozaru.

The enormous amount of Bruits Waves was for Vegeta because he didn't have a tail. Because he didn't have a tail, firstly Bulma created a Bruits Wave Amplifying Device (for Baby) that was absorbing the Bruits Waves that Earth was emitting, and increased them by a thousand times. Later, to help Vegeta transform into a Super Saiyan 4, she made an Ultra-Bruits Wave Emitter, which produced by it self (possible equal amounts as before) Bruits Waves, so that Vegeta could transform into an Oozaru.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

But they are not techniques, they are transformations. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks had to get stronger to transform into Grade 2 & 3, Gohan was the strongest Saiyan when he transformed into Super Saiyan 2, and the rest of the Saiyans couldn't, and Goku was also the strongest Saiyan at the time when he transformed into a Super Saiyan 3. Later, Gotenks was way stronger than Goku, and he easily managed to transform into a Super Saiyan 3. All these scream to me that like the first transformation, the rest of them have also a power requirement.

I don't see why it would be different, though. They're not transformations and biologic abilities they're born to realize or understand right away. I think Great Ape is evidence of my case; that you can learn to control your irrational, primal state of mind as an Oozaru with enough practice, so it's probably the same with SSJ forms. I know you'll probably respond by saying this only supports your point, but I wish you could honestly admit that it seems to could go both ways.

The main point to Bejiita and Gokuu originally going into the Room of Spirit and Time was to experiment and explore the depths of their Super Saiya-Jin power; training was just an added bonus for the time being.

Whilst it's true Gokuu was the strongest at that time when displaying SSJ3, he also trained under special circumstances; who knows what he learned and took into consideration when figuring out the form; and Gotenks more-or-less learned from Gokuu how to become SSJ3, I'm not sure if Gokuu showing SSJ3 to the boys was just filler in the anime, but if it isn't, that can be explained as a case of learning the secret first hand, not necessarily achieving it from power. Also, Gotenks is magical; he is the only one able to create living ghosts as ki attacks, so I think it's safe to say he's dismissible as a special case. It would be similar to how Seru learned Shunkan Idou from Gokuu or Ma Jinn Buu learning Gokuu's Kamehame-ha.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I got your point, and yeah, I guess that it can work both ways. But I choose to go by my point of view, because it makes more sense to me.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Thats not the case. Cell says he can blow up the Solar System are we supposed to believe that? Well thats up to you but I think he can just destroy the sun not the entire Solar System. Bulma doesn't know everything about Saiyans and such we don't have to take what she says seriously. I can go either way really. Training to get to SSJ4 would make sense but then at the same time if you have SSJ in reserve you should be able to turn into the Golden ape. Looking back on the legend Vegeta tells on Namek, the first SSJ was a Golden Oozaru and I can assure you his base level wasn't any higher than 1 million and thats pushing it.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I think it's possible SSJ4 could be like an Oozaru version of SSJ2, but I'd still like to agree with you and attempt to dismiss Buruma's statement like many others in the series.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I think it's possible SSJ4 could be like an Oozaru version of SSJ2, but I'd still like to agree with you and attempt to dismiss Buruma's statement like many others in the series.

I think of SSJ4 as a SSJ3 Oozaru. Its the pinnacle of power the Saiyan can achieve according to the GT Perfect Files. SSJ3 also has the same thing said about in the Daizenshuus. I like to think that the Oozaru is a base template and it uses the SSJ3 multiplier to achieve SSJ4.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Thats not the case. Cell says he can blow up the Solar System are we supposed to believe that? Well thats up to you but I think he can just destroy the sun not the entire Solar System.

By destroying the Sun, the supernova that would be produced, combined with Cell's Kamehameha would be enough to destroy the Solar System, IMO.

Bulma doesn't know everything about Saiyans and such we don't have to take what she says seriously.

You should take into consideration the out-of-universe indications that it works as Bulma says so as well. Bulma's theory is what the writers believe, since it was not contradicted.

Looking back on the legend Vegeta tells on Namek, the first SSJ was a Golden Oozaru and I can assure you his base level wasn't any higher than 1 million and thats pushing it.

Not only this was filler (and that wasn't the first Super Saiyan, but the last Super Saiyan), this was a metaphorical appearance of the Super Saiyan form (he didn't even have a tail), like the metaphorical appearances that #17 & #18 had when Trunks was describing them in the anime.
And even if the last Super Saiyan really was a Golden Oozaru, we have absolutely no idea how strong he was.

For me, to become a Super Saiyan 4, the requirements are:

• Saiyan tail
• Super Saiyan
• Rationality over Oozaru
• A required amount of battle power (bigger than the required one for Super Saiyan 3)

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I think it's possible SSJ4 could be like an Oozaru version of SSJ2, but I'd still like to agree with you and attempt to dismiss Buruma's statement like many others in the series.

I think of SSJ4 as a SSJ3 Oozaru. Its the pinnacle of power the Saiyan can achieve according to the GT Perfect Files. SSJ3 also has the same thing said about in the Daizenshuus. I like to think that the Oozaru is a base template and it uses the SSJ3 multiplier to achieve SSJ4.

Admittingly, I prefer my fan-fictional ideas over generalized diagnosis' made after-the-fact of the author's original intentions.

I'm against the rope, but I'd argue that SSJ3 is still possibly just a special case with Gokuu training in Otherworld and Gotenks being a magical being.

I'm also not very strongly leaning on the idea that SSJ4 is Oozaru SSJ2; I actually prefer the idea that it's just Golden Ape = SSJ4 but with a better body for fighting.

Anyway, you're probably right, regardless of my fan fictional ideas. Although it makes me wonder if Bejiita may have been a special case since he didn't seem to know SSJ3 in GT, or perhaps he had just figured it out in the training before facing Shenlong and assimilating Buruma's blutzs waves.

[Bussani]

Didn't they explain why he was doing the weird chair training at all?

Just usual everyday training Vegeta was doing.

Okay. Thanks. As always, I forget about a lot when it comes to GT.

Bulma doesn't know everything about Saiyans and such we don't have to take what she says seriously.

That is one way of looking at it, but I'm glad it was brought up, at least. That way everyone can make their own decisions about it.

I think of SSJ4 as a SSJ3 Oozaru.

There's something interesting about that. Have you ever noticed that a Saiyan's tail doesn't turn gold when they become a Super Saiyan (except maybe in certain artwork or for one shot)? Not in GT, nor in the new Bardock special. But Goku's tail turns gold when he becomes a Super Saiyan 3. I've always wondered if there might be something significant about that. Of course, it might just show that Golden Oozaru is as strong as or stronger than Super Saiyan 3--like there's a minimum amount of power needed to turn Oozaru fur gold.

at the same time if you have SSJ in reserve you should be able to turn into the Golden ape.

Like I said, I don't think it's ever explicitly stated to work that way. It seems like it should work that way--I mean, if I were writing GT, that's how I'd make it work--but it's oddly absent from the series itself and the guides. Unless I'm forgetting something else...

It's interesting that Vegeta only became a regular Oozaru when he got shot with the Bruitz Waves. He didn't become a Golden Oozaru until he came to his senses for some reason. Again, it would make sense to say that he became a Golden Oozaru the same way as he would become a Super Saiyan, like you're saying.

On topic: if Super Saiyan and Oozaru are the basic prerequisites, I think Gohan should be able to become a Super Saiyan 4. Trunks and Goten probably can't, on account of them being born without tails; but who knows what might happen if you pumped them full of enough Bruitz Waves? Maybe their DNA would freak out and they'd grow tails for some absurd reason. In Dragon Ball, there isn't much that would surprise me.