SSJ4 Saiyan Halfbreeds?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Thats not the case. Cell says he can blow up the Solar System are we supposed to believe that? Well thats up to you but I think he can just destroy the sun not the entire Solar System.

By destroying the Sun, the supernova that would be produced, combined with Cell's Kamehameha would be enough to destroy the Solar System, IMO.

Too bad it wouldn't. A supernova would only spread as far as Mars.

Bulma doesn't know everything about Saiyans and such we don't have to take what she says seriously.

You should take into consideration the out-of-universe indications that it works as Bulma says so as well. Bulma's theory is what the writers believe, since it was not contradicted.

That sir is not a fact. Its just how you feel about the situation. Toriyama made Cell say he could destroy the entire Solar System and I don't believe that. Destroying the Sun would cause a solar collapse but it wouldn't destroy the entire thing. There are many more examples of a character saying something that hasn't been true.

Looking back on the legend Vegeta tells on Namek, the first SSJ was a Golden Oozaru and I can assure you his base level wasn't any higher than 1 million and thats pushing it.

Not only this was filler (and that wasn't the first Super Saiyan, but the last Super Saiyan), this was a metaphorical appearance of the Super Saiyan form (he didn't even have a tail), like the metaphorical appearances that #17 & #18 had when Trunks was describing them in the anime.
And even if the last Super Saiyan really was a Golden Oozaru, we have absolutely no idea how strong he was.

For me, to become a Super Saiyan 4, the requirements are:

• Saiyan tail
• Super Saiyan
• Rationality over Oozaru
• A required amount of battle power (bigger than the required one for Super Saiyan 3)

GT follows the anime continuity. Filler matters in this case. Vegeta straight up says the first Super Saiyan could only maintain his SSJ form in the ape status. I'm sorry but suggesting Saiyans back then had a power level even above 100,000 is pushing it.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I think it was implied that Bejiita was merely acting as a mindless ape when he transformed and probably intentionally didn't turn gold until he wanted to stop having fun scaring Gokuu.

[Ankhael]

I'm against the rope, but I'd argue that SSJ3 is still possibly just a special case with Gokuu training in Otherworld and Gotenks being a magical being.

Actually Goten and Trunks stated they achieve SSJ3 via training in the hypertime chamber as Gotenks.. Goten or Trunks stated after training "isnt it amazing to know that there levels beyond a super saiyan". they also implied that they achieve SSJ2 stated that they didnt want to skip a level because they wanted to put a show on in front of their friends...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Thats not the case. Cell says he can blow up the Solar System are we supposed to believe that? Well thats up to you but I think he can just destroy the sun not the entire Solar System.

By destroying the Sun, the supernova that would be produced, combined with Cell's Kamehameha would be enough to destroy the Solar System, IMO.

Too bad it wouldn't. A supernova would only spread as far as Mars.

Like I said, a supernova combined with the power of Cell's Kamehameha.

Vegeta straight up says the first Super Saiyan could only maintain his SSJ form in the ape status.

No, he doesn't. That's just what we see.

I'm sorry but suggesting Saiyans back then had a power level even above 100,000 is pushing it.

We don't know how powerful the Saiyans were 1000 years before the series. And the last Super Saiyan should at least be in the millions (if he weren't an Golden Oozaru), since we know that the Super Saiyan form requires a high battle power.

I think it was implied that Bejiita was merely acting as a mindless ape when he transformed and probably intentionally didn't turn gold until he wanted to stop having fun scaring Gokuu.

Correct.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Actually Goten and Trunks stated they achieve SSJ3 via training in the hypertime chamber as Gotenks.. Goten or Trunks stated after training "isnt it amazing to know that there levels beyond a super saiyan". they also implied that they achieve SSJ2 stated that they didnt want to skip a level because they wanted to put a show on in front of their friends...

Okay? I'm not refuting that Gotenks practiced harnessing the transformations. Just that SSJ1-3, and maybe even 4, are achievable just by being able to practice controlling SSJ1 and Oozaru for SSJ4, and with SSJ2, practicing to control SSJ1. I'm also refuting SSJ3 being another stage for every Saiya-Jin to possibly achieve; perhaps not all Saiya-Jind can achieve; maybe it's a form with magical properties of some sort like Ultimate/ Mystic Gohan.

[Bussani]

Too bad it wouldn't. A supernova would only spread as far as Mars.

What are you basing that on? Our Sun isn't big enough to go supernova to begin with, so I'm curious about how you came to this conclusion.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Like I said, a supernova combined with the power of Cell's Kamehameha.

Destroying the sun wouldn't cause a supernova. You would have to supercharge it with the Kamehameha and even then it would still only spread past Mars. Plus the entire Solar System is more than 2 light years across.

Vegeta straight up says the first Super Saiyan could only maintain his SSJ form in the ape status.

No, he doesn't. That's just what we see.

Last I checked he said the last SSJ could only maintain his SSJ form in the transformed state.

I'm sorry but suggesting Saiyans back then had a power level even above 100,000 is pushing it.

We don't know how powerful the Saiyans were 1000 years before the series. And the last Super Saiyan should at least be in the millions (if he weren't an Golden Oozaru), since we know that the Super Saiyan form requires a high battle power.

Bardock disagrees with you .

Too bad it wouldn't. A supernova would only spread as far as Mars.

What are you basing that on? Our Sun isn't big enough to go supernova to begin with, so I'm curious about how you came to this conclusion.

I'm basing this off of Cell supercharging the sun with enough energy to go Supernova. A Supernova would spread that far.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Destroying the sun wouldn't cause a supernova. You would have to supercharge it with the Kamehameha and even then it would still only spread past Mars. Plus the entire Solar System is more than 2 light years across.

Whatever, the Solar System would still be destroyed by the explosion. Don't think of this so much realistically, this is the same series were a ki blast reached the moon like it was a nearby building.

Last I checked he said the last SSJ could only maintain his SSJ form in the transformed state.

Check again.

Bardock disagrees with you .

He had a battle power near 10.000 before getting beaten up by Dodoria. It's possible that he got a near-death power-up after healing from the events from the TV Specials.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Destroying the sun wouldn't cause a supernova. You would have to supercharge it with the Kamehameha and even then it would still only spread past Mars. Plus the entire Solar System is more than 2 light years across.

Whatever, the Solar System would still be destroyed by the explosion. Don't think of this so much realistically, this is the same series were a ki blast reached the moon like it was a nearby building.

No it wouldn't. I'm sorry but its outlandish to suggest Cell could destroy the entire freakin Solar System. I'll believe that when I see Birisu destroy a Galaxy in the next movie. You just have to believe Ki is near light speed to believe it hit the moon so thats not outlandish.

Check again.

Can I have the line(s)?

He had a battle power near 10.000 before getting beaten up by Dodoria. It's possible that he got a near-death power-up after healing from the events from the TV Specials.

You think Bardock got a Zenkai of a 100x increase? Well for one you would have to believe that Chilled has a power level higher than 1 million in base, which is crap since Chilled is weaker than Freeza. I'm sorry but no.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You think Bardock got a Zenkai of a 100x increase?

Now that I thought about it a little, Goku was said to have surpassed the Saiyan limits, and was speculated to be a Super Saiyan when his battle power was 90.000. So, Bardock could have gotten, say, about 10 times stronger.

[TheMightyOzaru]

You think Bardock got a Zenkai of a 100x increase?

Now that I thought about it a little, Goku was said to have surpassed the Saiyan limits, and was speculated to be a Super Saiyan when his battle power was 90.000. So, Bardock could have gotten, say, about 10 times stronger.

90,000 is still under 100,000. 90,000 is still really high for someone like Bardock.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

90,000 is still under 100,000. 90,000 is still really high for someone like Bardock.

Goku got a x33 increase from his last near-death power-up. If Goku can, then every Saiyan can. You need battle power beyond the Saiyan limits to transform into a Super Saiyan. It's officially stated. And since the near-death power-ups are as big as the plot needs them to be, Bardock's power skyrocketed at least by 10 times.

[TheMightyOzaru]

90,000 is still under 100,000. 90,000 is still really high for someone like Bardock.

Goku got a x33 increase from his last near-death power-up. If Goku can, then every Saiyan can. You need battle power beyond the Saiyan limits to transform into a Super Saiyan. It's officially stated. And since the near-death power-ups are as big as the plot needs them to be, Bardock's power skyrocketed at least by 10 times.

Goku has also been receiving quite a few Zenkai's up to that point. Furthermore the larger Zenkai's were only obvious when the characters power levels got pretty big. No dude, there is no reason for Bardock's power level to grow that much. SSJ Bardock could likely kill chilled without a Zenkai so there is no reason for a Zenkai if its plot based. Bardock likely only got a 2x boost at most. 10,000 was Bardock's limit at the time so its an irrelevant point.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You don't understand. You can't be a Super Saiyan with a battle power at only 20.000. It's just impossible, based on official information.

[TheMightyOzaru]

You don't understand. You can't be a Super Saiyan with a battle power at only 20.000. It's just impossible, based on official information.

Thats not stated anywhere. 20,000 can be a limit and as such it doesn't defy the statement. His SSJ power level would be 1,000,000 if he went SSJ which is pretty solid.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

You don't understand. You can't be a Super Saiyan with a battle power at only 20.000. It's just impossible, based on official information.

What official source is that?

[Fox666]

deleted

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Thats not stated anywhere.

I've done my homework.

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P12.5
Narrator: “Even Goku hasn’t realized…That somewhere along the line he’s acquired enough power to surpass the level of Saiyan limits…”

The ultimate Saiyan warrior that surpasses the limits of a regular Saiyan. Originally, the existence of this form outside of legend was doubted even among Saiyans, but in reality any Saiyan that possesses a high battle power above the standard level is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan. Possessing a calm heart, sensing extreme danger, feeling strong anger or sadness, or a danger to the Saiyan race itself seem to be states that are the essential keys to transforming. The outward signs of the transformation include an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils. In addition, a battle power 50 times that of normal is proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.

Super Saiyan 1
The transformation which Son Goku displayed in his battle with Freeza on Planet Namek was “Super Saiyan 1”!! Proposed conditions for the transformation include such points as “intense anger or sorrow”, “high battle power”, “a gentle heart”, and “a dangerous situation”. The main external features are an aura and golden hair on one’s head which stands straight up, and after the transformation one’s battle power increases remarkably!! One theory is that it becomes as much as 50 times what it is normally!! There’s also types like Grade Two, which raises power and speed through ki, and Grade Three, which relies too much on power!!

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I don't think Father and Son Vegeta, or even Nappa, were considered "standard" power levels.

Even so, I really hate the Daizenshuu; it's all contradicted by Vegeta, who wasn't pure of heart, not even "pure evil", by Goten and Trunks...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think Father and Son Bejiita, or even Nappa, were considered "standard" power levels.

But that's what the manga implies.

Even so, I really hate the Daizenshuu; it's all contradicted by Bejiita, who wasn't pure of heart, not even "pure evil", by Goten and Trunks...

The Daizenshuu say in this case what the manga says. Vegeta said in the manga that he transformed because he was pure evil, so maybe he really was pure evil, until he learned that Trunks was his son, he started having feelings for Bulma, and started considering Earth his home.