Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Even if the calculations are a little off (as some say), it's clear that Goku is inferior to Superman from Superman's feats.

[Puto]

Why do you need an "official statement"...?

We didn't. That's all. None of us were around, and we didn't have anything to add. We didn't make the video; we just provided a bunch of documentation.

Okay VegettoEX, check this out:

They're taking All Star Superman into account which isn't canon to Post-Crisis Supes. He's a take on the Silver Age Superman whose powers were crazy and were being made up issue after issue.

Not quite. The feats they mentioned aren't actually from All-Star Superman, they're just re-referenced again in All-Star Superman as something that happened in the past. All-Star Superman is insanely powerful from being overly irradiated with sunlight, which brought him to Silver Age levels of power, but the feats they used weren't from that. The scene they used was...

- You're lifting 200 quintillion tons, Superman. That's three times your record.

As this event took place right after he got irradiated, the event where he performed the equivalent of moving 200/3 quintillion tons (aka 66 quintillion tons) had to have happened before, when he was at his normal levels of power.

[dbzfan7]

The feats were off and some moments screwed with others, but the ending line was the point. Goku has limits and trains to surpass them and Superman is as strong as he needs to be. That is the only thing that truly counts because it's fact.

[dario03]

Why do you need an "official statement"...?

We didn't. That's all. None of us were around, and we didn't have anything to add. We didn't make the video; we just provided a bunch of documentation.

Okay VegettoEX, check this out:

They're taking All Star Superman into account which isn't canon to Post-Crisis Supes. He's a take on the Silver Age Superman whose powers were crazy and were being made up issue after issue. Grant Morrisson himself stated that it's like an Elseworld's story and isn't part of any series made before. Also, they base their assumptions on base Goku from the Saiya-jin arc which is really unfair because that was the start of DBZ, why not take base Goku from the Majin arcs? Where his power is at the very least 1000x times his power at the Saiya-jin arc?

This video was extremely biased towards Superman. I'm a huge Superman fan, but anybody can clearly see that Goku can blow up a planet into nothingness, whereas Superman can't. Okay, but that's ki, so let's take physical attacks into account.

As far as physical attacks are concerned, when the Z characters fight, the force from each blow breaks mountains and destroys buildings around them (Saiya-jin, but mostly Freeza arc). This happened to Superman when he fought Doomsday as well. The ground shook a little and glass shattered in the buildings around them, but you know what? Superman got exhausted and died from that battle. The battle lasted for just a short while and he was dead. This would never happen to Goku. The Z fighters (like Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo) can easily tank such hits and still not even raise their ki to it's maximum and go on fighting endlessly.

I think you guys should contact them and tell them something about all this.

I'm sure the info they sent them covered the destruction caused by their fights. But they can't fight endlessly, they actually run out of energy a lot especially in higher forms.

And Superman fought Doomsday right after crisis and he was weak then. I could also point out how weak Goku was in the beginning of DB and even DBZ (heck besides the mountains that took direct hits there was almost no damage done to the enviroment when Goku died fighting Raditz and plenty of other times where others died with little happening) but that doesn't really matter because they used the stronger showings for both Goku and Superman.

[VegettoEX]

Every single person that's used the word "biased" and says something about the video to me just comes off as a crazy person looking to have me personally validate their sore asshole.

And it's a lot of people.

Guess what? I loved the video! I thought it was great! I have nothing to add! I don't know jack shit about Superman! That was kinda the entire point of the two sides of the independent research.

Dear Internet, please research the word "biased". Thank you, good day.

[dario03]

Every single person that's used the word "biased" and says something about the video to me just comes off as a crazy person looking to have me personally validate their sore asshole.

And it's a lot of people.

Guess what? I loved the video! I thought it was great! I have nothing to add! I don't know jack shit about Superman! That was kinda the entire point of the two sides of the independent research.

Dear Internet, please research the word "biased". Thank you, good day.

Best. Webmaster response. Ever.

[Bussani]

They're taking All Star Superman into account which isn't canon to Post-Crisis Supes. He's a take on the Silver Age Superman whose powers were crazy and were being made up issue after issue. Grant Morrisson himself stated that it's like an Elseworld's story and isn't part of any series made before.

Aside from what Puto already said, they also used Dragon Ball stuff that was only in movies that can't possibly fit into the timeline of Dragon Ball's story, and which, if you ask me, make up powers on the fly themselves (e.g. becoming a Super Saiyan and absorbing a Genki Dama).

Even if we ignore that, the current Superman has actually surpassed the strength that All Star Superman displayed, lifting more than thirty times the "200 quintillion tons" feat for five days straight and only stopping because he had other things to do.

Also, they base their assumptions on base Goku from the Saiya-jin arc which is really unfair because that was the start of DBZ, why not take base Goku from the Majin arcs?

The Goku who "wouldn't be able to move" with forty tons of weights on him?

This video was extremely biased towards Superman. I'm a huge Superman fan, but anybody can clearly see that Goku can blow up a planet into nothingness, whereas Superman can't.

I'd be surprised if Superman couldn't destroy a planet, but admittedly, I don't think he ever has. What's more important is whether he could survive such a thing, of course, which is why Death Battle started looking at things like him surviving supernovas.

As far as physical attacks are concerned, when the Z characters fight, the force from each blow breaks mountains and destroys buildings around them (Saiya-jin, but mostly Freeza arc). This happened to Superman when he fought Doomsday as well. The ground shook a little and glass shattered in the buildings around them, but you know what? Superman got exhausted and died from that battle. The battle lasted for just a short while and he was dead. This would never happen to Goku. The Z fighters (like Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo) can easily tank such hits and still not even raise their ki to it's maximum and go on fighting endlessly.

Isn't that a weird thing to say? Piccolo once had his neck broken by a single punch from Cell. They can't just "tank" everything--it depends entirely on the strength of the opponent.

[Hellspawn28]

Also, they base their assumptions on base Goku from the Saiya-jin arc which is really unfair because that was the start of DBZ, why not take base Goku from the Majin arcs? Where his power is at the very least 1000x times his power at the Saiya-jin arc?

Because that's Goku best speed feat. Goku does not have many speed feats outside of power scaling? How can you judge a characters without saying character A is stronger then character B?

As far as physical attacks are concerned, when the Z characters fight, the force from each blow breaks mountains and destroys buildings around them (Saiya-jin, but mostly Freeza arc). This happened to Superman when he fought Doomsday as well. The ground shook a little and glass shattered in the buildings around them, but you know what? Superman got exhausted and died from that battle. The battle lasted for just a short while and he was dead. This would never happen to Goku. The Z fighters (like Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo) can easily tank such hits and still not even raise their ki to it's maximum and go on fighting endlessly.

Sometimes the collateral damage is reduced down because the plot. Same thing happen with DBZ when Gohan killed Cell. The attack made only a small hole in the ground and it claim to wipe out a solar system.

I think you guys should contact them and tell them something about all this.

I think they get enough flack from crazy DBZ fans already

[TheMightyOzaru]

Why do you need an "official statement"...?

We didn't. That's all. None of us were around, and we didn't have anything to add. We didn't make the video; we just provided a bunch of documentation.

Okay VegettoEX, check this out:

They're taking All Star Superman into account which isn't canon to Post-Crisis Supes. He's a take on the Silver Age Superman whose powers were crazy and were being made up issue after issue. Grant Morrisson himself stated that it's like an Elseworld's story and isn't part of any series made before. Also, they base their assumptions on base Goku from the Saiya-jin arc which is really unfair because that was the start of DBZ, why not take base Goku from the Majin arcs? Where his power is at the very least 1000x times his power at the Saiya-jin arc?

This video was extremely biased towards Superman. I'm a huge Superman fan, but anybody can clearly see that Goku can blow up a planet into nothingness, whereas Superman can't. Okay, but that's ki, so let's take physical attacks into account.

As far as physical attacks are concerned, when the Z characters fight, the force from each blow breaks mountains and destroys buildings around them (Saiya-jin, but mostly Freeza arc). This happened to Superman when he fought Doomsday as well. The ground shook a little and glass shattered in the buildings around them, but you know what? Superman got exhausted and died from that battle. The battle lasted for just a short while and he was dead. This would never happen to Goku. The Z fighters (like Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo) can easily tank such hits and still not even raise their ki to it's maximum and go on fighting endlessly.

I think you guys should contact them and tell them something about all this.

Superman blows up planets all the time, who is biased? Superman even survived a star going Supernova. I agree that Goku would beat initial Superman since I have Goku's max output at over 100 Nonillion megatons at SSJ4 by the end of Z however Sun dipped Supes is likely far stronger than that.

[Mewzard]

Why do you need an "official statement"...?

We didn't. That's all. None of us were around, and we didn't have anything to add. We didn't make the video; we just provided a bunch of documentation.

Okay VegettoEX, check this out:

They're taking All Star Superman into account which isn't canon to Post-Crisis Supes. He's a take on the Silver Age Superman whose powers were crazy and were being made up issue after issue. Grant Morrisson himself stated that it's like an Elseworld's story and isn't part of any series made before. Also, they base their assumptions on base Goku from the Saiya-jin arc which is really unfair because that was the start of DBZ, why not take base Goku from the Majin arcs? Where his power is at the very least 1000x times his power at the Saiya-jin arc?

This video was extremely biased towards Superman. I'm a huge Superman fan, but anybody can clearly see that Goku can blow up a planet into nothingness, whereas Superman can't. Okay, but that's ki, so let's take physical attacks into account.

As far as physical attacks are concerned, when the Z characters fight, the force from each blow breaks mountains and destroys buildings around them (Saiya-jin, but mostly Freeza arc). This happened to Superman when he fought Doomsday as well. The ground shook a little and glass shattered in the buildings around them, but you know what? Superman got exhausted and died from that battle. The battle lasted for just a short while and he was dead. This would never happen to Goku. The Z fighters (like Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo) can easily tank such hits and still not even raise their ki to it's maximum and go on fighting endlessly.

I think you guys should contact them and tell them something about all this.

Mike isn't going to stem your butthurt here, man. It was a fun fight that was done logically for both sides using several great sources. I love both characters, have for years. But feats-wise, even discounting the Silver Age, Superman is just more powerful than Goku. At his peak towards the end of the modern era/pre-New52, the man tanked Supernovas, insanely beyond blowing up planets. Your comments towards the Superman/Doomsday fight ignore that the fight occurred in 1992 (6 years after Superman's reboot, and about 18 years *give or take* before the end of the Superman used in the fight). He got a lot stronger since then.

Hell, the current Superman is even beyond that. He basically bench-pressed the weight of the world for several days straight without being in contact with Sunlight (not even All-Star Superman could do that...and by the way, All-Star Superman, while being closer to Silver Age levels, was no where near Mr. "Dragging all the planets in a galaxy away via a chain"). So, be glad they didn't use that Superman, or the fight would have ended in about 3 seconds. Given the choices they made for Goku and Superman, the sources they used, it worked.

Also, you have to remember: The fight was meant to show off a lot of their strengths and weaknesses for an interesting show. Superman could have lobotomized Goku before he could react, ala what he did to Doomsday in that one story, or what he did to that guy they showed in the video. Superman could have used his superior abilities to quickly take out Goku before he powered up. They chose to make it more like a fun comic book battle, and I enjoyed that aspect.

[Gokuden]

But the fact that Superman destroyed his precious Earth means he's going to Hell. I know you can't beat Superman because he's as strong as you need him to be. If you made a 6-issue series/run where Superman had to fight God, guess who'd win. Yeah, you know, it's hopeless. I just like the fact that this is a bittersweet ending for Superman; he killed Lois and Batman, what's more, he's going to hell, and is going to lose his physical vessel. HAHA.

[dario03]

But the fact that Superman destroyed his precious Earth means he's going to Hell. I know you can't beat Superman because he's as strong as you need him to be. If you made a 6-issue series/run where Superman had to fight God, guess who'd win. Yeah, you know, it's hopeless. I just like the fact that this is a bittersweet ending for Superman; he killed Lois and Batman, what's more, he's going to hell, and is going to lose his physical vessel. HAHA.

uhhhhhhh.....technically Superman AND Goku destroyed the Earth. Them both doing their final attack is what destroyed the planet so Goku would kind of be screwed too. Actually its more Goku's fault since Superman didn't even want to fight.

[GS7X7]

But the fact that Superman destroyed his precious Earth means he's going to Hell. I know you can't beat Superman because he's as strong as you need him to be. If you made a 6-issue series/run where Superman had to fight God, guess who'd win. Yeah, you know, it's hopeless. I just like the fact that this is a bittersweet ending for Superman; he killed Lois and Batman, what's more, he's going to hell, and is going to lose his physical vessel. HAHA.

Won't everyone on Planet Namek wish back planet earth?

I'm sure the next battle is probably something like Superman vs. Hulk or Superman vs. Gogeta. (probably Hulk)

If you go by the video stats Gogeta is (possibly?) faster at least, depending on the formula used for fusion calculating. (which is only guesstimating)

[Hellspawn28]

Gogeta is hard to use in Death Battle since he barely has any feats at all. If you view both DBZ Movie 12 Gogeta and SSj4 Gogeta as the same character then his best feat is kicking a attack out of the Planet's orbit that can destroy the Earth. He is hard to judge without power scaling from other characters.

[JP6GAMER]

Wouldn't it be a better idea to take Vegito?

[SylentEcho]

Every single person that's used the word "biased" and says something about the video to me just comes off as a crazy person looking to have me personally validate their sore asshole.

And it's a lot of people.

Guess what? I loved the video! I thought it was great! I have nothing to add! I don't know jack shit about Superman! That was kinda the entire point of the two sides of the independent research.

Dear Internet, please research the word "biased". Thank you, good day.

I may have come across as though I was siding Goku, but that's no reason to reply like that. Your website is fantastic and I've been a fan of it for more than a decade now, but sometimes you just rub people the wrong way for no reason at all. I wasn't asking for you to validate my opinion. They mentioned Kanzenshuu in their video and I thought they didn't have a'll the info, so I just decided to make a post about it here. That's all. Take it easy man, I've been a fan for years and years downloading your podcast, putting it on my ipod and stuff.

Anyway, I just wanna say that I'm not butthurt about the outcome of this fight or anything, I'm a huge Dragon Ball fan and also a huge Superman fan with a collection of over 3000 Superman comics.

After reading Bussani's post, I kind of get it now. I haven't updated myself on the current version of Superman, so I didn't know he could do stuff like that. The Superman that I was familiar with could easily be hurt and didn't have a crazy amount of strength. I've read Superman Post-Crisis onward up until Emperor Joker and he never displayed that kind of strength.

At his peak towards the end of the modern era/pre-New52, the man tanked Supernovas, insanely beyond blowing up planets. Your comments towards the Superman/Doomsday fight ignore that the fight occurred in 1992 (6 years after Superman's reboot, and about 18 years *give or take* before the end of the Superman used in the fight). He got a lot stronger since then.

I never knew he got stronger. I stopped reading new Superman stuff after 2003 I think, although I bought most of the New 52 issues. Each time I want to read some new Superman, I end up just going back to the old ones instead. Anyway, thanks for the info.

[VegettoEX]

There is absolutely nothing I can say to anyone who's disappointed with the final result of the video or thinks that something they came up with was somehow overlooked in either the initial research Kanzenshuu presented to ScrewAttack or the final analysis the folks at ScrewAttack did on their own.

I got nothing. There's absolutely zero things I can say to those people.

My intent isn't to be rude, and it's not even to be completely dismissive. I just have nothing to say. It all comes across to me as "VALIDAAAAAAAAAATE MEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and I'm not going to do it, which is one of the reasons I'm really trying my best to just not even enter into these follow-up conversations.

(The only thing I can really say is that everyone who's claiming there's "bias" against Goku, like I said before, doesn't actually seem to understand what that word means. Near as I can tell, Goku was given benefit of the doubt after benefit of the doubt after benefit of the doubt with extra buffer calculations built into everything, and he still wasn't even remotely near where he would have needed to have been against conservative Superman calculations. If anything, it was "biased" against Superman, and I mean that with an actual definition of the word.)

[Hellspawn28]

Wouldn't it be a better idea to take Vegito?

Vegito is hard to judge as well since he was in only two chapters. Vegito's best feat is able to resistant to transmutation after Buu turn him into candy.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Wouldn't it be a better idea to take Vegito?

Vegito is hard to judge as well since he was in only two chapters. Vegito best feat is able to resistant to transmutation after Buu turn him into candy.

Vegetto is also supposedly Vegeta x Goku in power. his base form would already fare much better than Goku's SSJ4 form since I can assure you Vegeta's power level is well over 4,000. He can also throw SSJ2, maybe even SSJ3, on top of that. Vegetto would have been a much better fight.

[SylentEcho]

(The only thing I can really say is that everyone who's claiming there's "bias" against Goku, like I said before, doesn't actually seem to understand what that word means.

Oh, I used that word the wrong way. I didn't notice that. Haha, silly me.