The power multiplier of ki attacks

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Doesn't he say it was from a time when /he/ fought Gokuu? Or, in other words, Ma'o Junior vs. Gokuu in the Budokai?

[Pantalones]

Maybe attacks don't have a "multiplier" at all, and instead work more like addition? That would explain why a Kamehameha with only the power that Goku could put into it back in early Z (or late Dragonball) would seem so weak to Piccolo in the Android Saga, since it'd only be hundreds or thousands above Cell's normal level (which was significantly below Piccolo at that point) rather than being millions above Cell's normal power like a Kamehameha on the level of Android Saga Goku probably would be.

Addition makes more sense than multiplication considering that most attacks need to be charged up before firing, too. More power gets added for each split-second of charging they do, which is why sometimes there's absurdly powerful attacks that take longer to charge AND less-powerful versions of the same attack that are charged quickly, even coming from the same character at the same point in the series.

So basically... Goku continuously improves the Kamehameha technique itself (so that each split-second of charging adds more power), rather than coming up with new techniques that can add more power like Vegeta does all the time (ordinary "big full-power ki blasts" that all generic Saiyans use --> Gallic Gun --> Big Bang Attack --> Final Flash --> whatever his new move was called in GT... I can't remember.)

[Fox666]

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[Saiga]

Have we ever heard of something like the addition of power in the series? As far I remember all power-ups that have been explained in the manga or guidebooks are described as some sort of multiplication.

Would it be so hard to believe that as of the Cell saga the Kamehame-ha would multiply the power by something like 5 times? There aren't Scouters at this point, so it's not like we are supposed to notice it.

It would be hard to believe, because Goku's Kamehameha fired under Kaio-ken x20 was cancelled out by 50% Freeza, both should have been at 60,000,000.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Have we ever heard of something like the addition of power in the series? As far I remember all power-ups that have been explained in the manga or guidebooks are described as some sort of multiplication.

Would it be so hard to believe that as of the Cell saga the Kamehame-ha would multiply the power by something like 5 times? There aren't Scouters at this point, so it's not like we are supposed to notice it.

It would be hard to believe, because Goku's Kamehameha fired under Kaio-ken x20 was cancelled out by 50% Freeza, both should have been at 60,000,000.

Maybe the multiplier of the Kaio-ken Kamehameha is the multiplier of the Kaio-ken, if the multiplier of the Kaio-ken is a lot bigger than the Kamehameha multiplier. There has to be a limit on how much power one can amplify through his techniques.

[Kaboom]

That's what I've come to think as well. The Kaio-Ken's power multiplier would override that of an attack. At least, it would so at higher levels of Kaio-Ken. Like the 4x against Vegeta, or the 20x against Freeza. In both instances, since Goku's power is already being so greatly amplified by the Kaio-Ken, the Kamehameha might be simply pushing all that power outwards in the form of a beam without increasing it any further.

After all, both attacks are described as working in similar ways; by focusing all your body's power and then unleashing it in one big burst. It'd make sense that such techniques wouldn't "stack" with each other.

[Victorious]

Obviously there are multipliers for amplified ki blast attacks.

Goku's normal battle power was 416, his KHH's battle power shot up to 924, 2.22x his standard fighting power.

Something like a Final Flash must be massive, 4-5x really. Considering Vegeta could hardly even budge Perfect Cell [warming up suppression] with a full forced kick to the neck/head, yet his Final Flash completely wrecked Cell blowing the whole right side of his upper torso off.

I do believe the Achilles heel of amplifed ki attacks are charge time and ki consumption. Piccolo stated he could only get 2 full power Makankosappos off and both took a long time to fully charge, Goku's Shunkan Ido Kamehameha cost him a good deal of ki.

[Fox666]

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[Kaboom]

These characters aren't glass cannons. If you can amplify your ki for attack, perhaps you can focus it for defense, as well?

[Bussani]

Something like a Final Flash must be massive, 4-5x really. Considering Vegeta could hardly even budge Perfect Cell [warming up suppression] with a full forced kick to the neck/head, yet his Final Flash completely wrecked Cell blowing the whole right side of his upper torso off.

I do believe the Achilles heel of amplifed ki attacks are charge time and ki consumption. Piccolo stated he could only get 2 full power Makankosappos off and both took a long time to fully charge, Goku's Shunkan Ido Kamehameha cost him a good deal of ki.

Yeah, you're right. I'd say the Final Flash was quite a bit stronger than Vegeta could manage with normal punches and kicks alone. It makes sense that an attack that takes so much longer to charge up would be more powerful.

[Fox666]

These characters aren't glass cannons. If you can amplify your ki for attack, perhaps you can focus it for defense, as well?

My point was against the Kaio-ken Kamehame-ha decresing multiplier theory. I actually do think these characters are just strong enough to withstand those attacks, as was Freeza against the Kamehame-ha with the Kaio-ken times 20.

[Victorious]

More than likely Goku's Super Kamehameha is a lot less than 2.22x. This is 5 years before the Saiyan saga and Goku's KHH in DBZ is suggested to improve over time. Physically a 2x gap is general one shot range

[JP6GAMER]

I think pre-Cell Saga , the multipliers of ki attacks were up to 4x.
Cell Saga and upwards I think the Z-Fighters got control of their power and could fight immediatley with their best power.

[Victorious]

What the heck does that mean?

Anyway, if you think Super Vegeta could put out as much power normally as he did with his Final Flash, or Goku normally as he did with his warp KHH then you are wrong.

[Kaboom]

I think he means that early on, characters could only express their full power through big amplified attacks, but as time went on and their power and skill grew, they could "power up" on their own without requiring big attacks to do it for them. Thus any remaining extra amplification from attacks would be minimal compared to the early days. It's an interesting idea.

[Saiga]

More than likely Goku's Super Kamehameha is a lot less than 2.22x. This is 5 years before the Saiyan saga and Goku's KHH in DBZ is suggested to improve over time. Physically a 2x gap is general one shot range

But in that 5 years, Goku himself doesn't seem to have gotten much stronger. And his KHH has a BP of 924 against Raditz and 910 against Piccolo beforehand.

[Fox666]

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[Saiga]

Actually we don't know what "910" stands for.

I know. I'm just saying the most logical thing for it to be. I didn't know how to fit that in, though.

[Victorious]

How do we know how strong Goku is at beginning of Z compared to the 23rd Budokai ?

I'm just saying I doubt his Super KHH at the 23rd was 2.22x, should still be under Kikoho IMO.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But in that 5 years, Goku himself doesn't seem to have gotten much stronger.

He didn't have any feats to determine how strong he had gotten, like we don't know how much stronger he got after 2 years on Yardrat & after 3 years on Earth training for the Artificial Humans.