Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:38 am
Goku's comments show us that Oob's full power is about equal to Pure Boo's power.
Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P2.4-8
Context: Vegeta asks Goku why he’s entering the next Tenkaichi Budoukai
Goku: “Because someone’s entering who seems incredible! I’ve had my eye on him for awhile, and he came to the tournament grounds this morning.”
Vegeta: “What!? …I don’t feel any ki that strong…”
Goku: “He’s completely suppressing his ki now. ..But somehow I can tell…that he’s definitely strong…”
Vegeta: “…Hmph, are you joking? There’s no way a guy like that could exist…Don’t tell me he’s an alien!?”
Goku: “Nope, he’s an Earthling.”
Bulma: “Huh!? That’s impossible.”
Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”
Satan: “Hahhahhah, now really! There’s no way that could happen, right?”
Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”
Even their short fight showed us that Oob was stronger than base Goku.
And then, there is the Daizenshuu saying that Oob increased his power when he used the Kiai. Which means that we saw three levels of Oob's power:
- Relaxed & as strong as an ordinary human.
- Raged (notice the red eyes) & strong enough to outclass base Goku (he did cause some damage to Goku's hand when he blocked his kick, and Goku almost didn't dodged his punch), but not by much (since they fought evenly for a while).
- Fully raged, unleashing his full power through a Kiai, completely outclassing base Goku (he sent Goku away, damaging his clothes, which is something, I guess), meeting his expectations to be as strong as Pure Boo (since he believed that he had a chance to win the tournament, besides him or Boo).
The only problem was that Oob didn't know how to fight, how to use ki, and could only access his true power only when he was angry. That's why Goku wanted to train him, to teach him how to fight, how to use his true power consciously, and possibly to make him even stronger than that so that he can have an even greater challenge. All these so that they can both have a great fight at their best.
GoKu.SaMa wrote:hleV wrote:GoKu.SaMa wrote:
2- 10 years is not a short period of time .
It's a short time to become 400x stronger under normal Earth conditions without good sparring partner. Plus, there wouldn't be any point in being excited about Oob if Goku could just go SS3 and be 400x stronger than him.
Ok you might be right , but the important thing is that Goku is stronger than Oob .
But not in base.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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TheMightyOzaru
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by TheMightyOzaru » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:39 am
Fox666 wrote:dbzfan7 wrote:How credible are the animation comics. They could easily be as dis-credible as the V-Jump magazines.
I think they are absolutely credible... as far as they deal with the anime.
That's the key word there, for the anime. Anime Vegetto might be a lot weaker than Manga Vegetto. GT is plot based in power so take that as you will.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Darkprince410
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by Darkprince410 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:01 am
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
[*]Fully raged, unleashing his full power through a Kiai, completely outclassing base Goku (he sent Goku away, damaging his clothes, which is something, I guess), meeting his expectations to be as strong as Pure Boo (since he believed that he had a chance to win the tournament, besides him or Boo).[/list]
Though I agree that he did tap into more power when he unleashed the kiai than he was at any other point during that fight, I still don't think it was power equal to that of Pure Buu, just because I don't see Goku being able to take a kiai from someone Pure Buu's strength without taking a bit more damage than that. It knocked him back and tore his clothes up, but outside of that it didn't really do any appreciable damage to him, which I don't think would happen if his enemy was 300-400 times stronger than him.
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hleV
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by hleV » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:05 am
Is Kiai even supposed to do much damage? I thought it's something like a really strong wind (that can even tear up clothes).
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:14 am
Base Vegeta could take some hits from Pure Boo and not die, and the Daizenshuu describes the Kiai as a technique that attacks & sends the opponent flying, so I can see Goku taking this hit from (an equal to Pure Boo) Oob. Besides, Goku expected Oob to be an incredibly strong guy, who even had a chance to beat him, and after testing him out, he said that he is exactly the person he thought he was, as amazing as he expected (except that he didn't know how to fight, use ki, and control his power). What else could he mean?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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JeffJarrett
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by JeffJarrett » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:20 am
V-Jump says that the Super Saiyan God is above Super Saiyan 3, nothing more. Also, it isn't even enought to defeat Bills according to the Track listing, as Goku is appearantly again in trouble after achieving the form.
Bills must be above Super Saiyan 3, all the forms of Boo, Super Vegetto, Hirudegarn, etc. but Super Vegito is nowhere near the Super Saiyan 4.
The question is, is Bills stronger than Omega Shenron?
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:28 am
JeffJarrett wrote:but Super Vegito is nowhere near the Super Saiyan 4.
He is officially said that he is perhaps stronger than a Super Saiyan 4 (Goku was the only SS4 at that time), which, IMO, implies that Super Vegetto is slightly stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Duo
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by Duo » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:36 am
We don't know if "Super Saiyan God" refers to a transformation or a new character or a fusion yet. Kinda makes debating its power level meaningless.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:42 am
Duo wrote:We don't know if "Super Saiyan God" refers to a transformation or a new character or a fusion yet. Kinda makes debating its power level meaningless.
The trailer showed us Goku transforming into a Super Saiyan God (but we didn't see him transformed), so it's a new transformation for Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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JeffJarrett
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by JeffJarrett » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:10 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:He is officially said that he is perhaps stronger than a Super Saiyan 4 (Goku was the only SS4 at that time), which, IMO, implies that Super Vegetto is slightly stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Goku.
Where? What's the source for this??
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:19 pm
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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MDSTSSJ
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by MDSTSSJ » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:30 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:JeffJarrett wrote:but Super Vegito is nowhere near the Super Saiyan 4.
He is officially said that he is perhaps stronger than a Super Saiyan 4 (Goku was the only SS4 at that time), which, IMO, implies that Super Vegetto is slightly stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Goku.
Hello DBZGTKOSDH
When we use the word ¨perhaps¨, that means not really sure and no implies anything accurate. That statement is for create debate, nothing more.
Slightly stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Goku? Mmm I don´t think so because Kakarotto GT powers are very high compared.
Kakarotto 10 years of training? Mmm people always forget that Kakarotto always be the only one able to find the right way to go beyond his powers. His training when he went to Namek, the room time idea in the Cell Saga, the fusion idea in the Boo Saga, is the most experienced, the most skilled in fights, etc. With those things I can assume that in 10 years could exceed his powers easily with constant training even in Earth. Is perfectly conceivable!!
Last edited by
MDSTSSJ on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JeffJarrett
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by JeffJarrett » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:44 pm
So, then we have Bills above Super Saiyan 3, all the forms of Boo, Super Vegetto, Hirudegarn... and appearantly above the Super Saiyan God as well.
Super Vegito near Super Saiyan 4 (Goku), if it's not a transcription error. So Bills must be above Super Saiyan 4 Goku, but is he above Omega Shenron and Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta?!
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MDSTSSJ
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by MDSTSSJ » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:04 pm
JeffJarrett wrote:So, then we have Bills above Super Saiyan 3, all the forms of Boo, Super Vegetto, Hirudegarn... and appearantly above the Super Saiyan God as well.
Super Vegito near Super Saiyan 4 (Goku), if it's not a transcription error. So Bills must be above Super Saiyan 4 Goku, but is he above Omega Shenron and Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta?!
I don´t think Bills is stronger than SSJ4 by what I said above about the GT powers. But, will see!!
Omega Shenron fused with the other 6 Dragons is 10 times stronger ( that´s a unimaginable power ) than Kakarotto SSJ4 ( beyond SSJ4 limits ). Gogeta SSJ4 played with that Omega Shenron fused with the others 6 Dragons. My conclusion is SSJ4 Gogeta defeat Bills with one single punch!!
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:28 pm
MDSTSSJ wrote:Hello DBZGTKOSDH
When we use the word ¨perhaps¨, that means not really sure and no implies anything accurate. That statement is for create debate, nothing more.
First of all, cut that attitude.
If you read more carefully my post, you will see that I say that "
IMO, implies that Super Vegetto is slightly stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Goku". In the manga, Piccolo said that SS2 Goku is perhaps stronger than SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, and before that, Vegeta says that Goku really is stronger than Gohan from back then. So, if Vegetto is not stronger than SS4 Goku, then he is equal or slightly weaker than him. The "perhaps" in the sentence means that there is not a big difference in their powers, with the possibility that that Vegetto's power is above him. But IMO, Vegetto is slightly stronger.
And as for Goku's huge power in GT... I disagree with GT. Goku can't be that strong, so it's a plot hole, and I ignore plot holes. I have GT Goku 3 or 4 times stronger than his Boo arc self.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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MDSTSSJ
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by MDSTSSJ » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:15 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:MDSTSSJ wrote:Hello DBZGTKOSDH
When we use the word ¨perhaps¨, that means not really sure and no implies anything accurate. That statement is for create debate, nothing more.
First of all, cut that attitude.
If you read more carefully my post, you will see that I say that "
IMO, implies that Super Vegetto is slightly stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Goku". In the manga, Piccolo said that SS2 Goku is perhaps stronger than SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, and before that, Vegeta says that Goku really is stronger than Gohan from back then. So, if Vegetto is not stronger than SS4 Goku, then he is equal or slightly weaker than him. The "perhaps" in the sentence means that there is not a big difference in their powers, with the possibility that that Vegetto's power is above him. But IMO, Vegetto is slightly stronger.
And as for Goku's huge power in GT... I disagree with GT. Goku can't be that strong, so it's a plot hole, and I ignore plot holes. I have GT Goku 3 or 4 times stronger than his Boo arc self.
There is no attitude there and much less a bad attitude!! Not misunderstand my words or how I write
I respect your opinions because I think you're one of the most knowing in the DB subject here.
Yes, I get it and I understood you perfectly, just gave my personal opinion.
You disagree with GT powers and I will not argue with you or someone for that but lamentably, that is what reflected in the GT series.
Cheers
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:22 pm
MDSTSSJ wrote:There is no attitude there and much less a bad attitude!! Not misunderstand my words or how I write
I respect your opinions because I think you're one of the most knowing in the DB subject here.
Aaaaawwww, sorry, sorry.
I thought you were being sarcastic.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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MDSTSSJ
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by MDSTSSJ » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:31 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:MDSTSSJ wrote:There is no attitude there and much less a bad attitude!! Not misunderstand my words or how I write
I respect your opinions because I think you're one of the most knowing in the DB subject here.
Aaaaawwww, sorry, sorry.
I thought you were being sarcastic.
No hard feelings
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by Saiga » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:20 pm
At the moment, I'm assuming that SSG will be stronger than Vegetto, because even if he has trouble with Bils (unquestionably the strongest being in Z) it will probably be SSG that allows him to defeat Bils in the end. I don't think he'd have anything on GT powers though.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on
my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
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by hleV » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:22 am
For the record, Vegetto is said to be "perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4" only in some GT-related media. While this may hold some weight for the anime version Vegetto, I don't think it really touches the manga, nor I believe that Akira Toriyama had anything to do with such power comparison, having in mind that he didn't make Super Saiyan 4 nor he probably knows just how strong it is. For a manga-based reference, "Vegetto = Goku × Vegeta" (whatever the hell that means).
