Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[GoKu.SaMa]

Why bring universe busting or planet busting up if it cannot be done in one blow? It's ultimately a non-point since Superman can do it as well =/. Speed doesn't necessarily scale linerally and it could have a cap. DBZ also heavily abuses cinematic time.

I don't know a lot about superman but what i think he can Barely destroy a planet.

Sorry but i don't understand what you are saying about the second point (the speed) .

Well then stop saying Goku would win. Superman can punch with the force equivilent to a supernova and can destroy a planet with ease. He is also constantly holding back too.

I think i need to know more about Superman's power before discussing with u , but what i do know is that Goku is much faster than Superman .

[GoKu.SaMa]

There is something wrong with your numbers. They are contradicted by points in the series. If they were capable of moving at speeds of light or faster, they would do it. They are always taking a minute or 2 to get anywhere on the planet.

When did that happen ?

[VegettoEX]

Please do not just keep responding over and over to yourself. You can quote multiple people in a single post. Please construct your thoughts carefully and post them all at once.

[Mewzard]

Mewzard

So superman was using less than 0.0025 % of his full power at the beginning of the fight ?
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And what about the fifth and the sixth point ?
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I did the math my self , and i didn't use any fake numbers , you can do it your self

Yes, Superman was using a fraction of a fraction of his full power. Superman has amazing power control. He can live a casual life one moment, defeat random bank robbers the next, then go fly faster than the speed of light to deliver planet shattering blows to gods in a fist fight. Superman's the epitome of controlling power. With his heat vision, he can lobotomize you at one moment:



And the next moment:



De-frosted Earth. Supes has a control of his heat vision that Goku just couldn't hope to match.

5-Are u sure ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLunw4lPi7Y

6-Why didn't he use the Spirit Bomb while using the SSJ4 and then absorb it ?

7- Ok you can do the same , you might convince me .


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It's hard to discuss with all of you guys because i don't know a lot about superman , but he seems very weak in the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBXSoajMi1s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLunw4lPi7Y

That's the problem. The cartoons downplayed his abilities so he could face more threats, especially in Justice League. Honestly, JL weakened several of them to make it less extreme levels.

What the comics do with Superman and what alternate media do with Superman are two different things.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

GoKu.SaMa, just pay close attention to the analysis of Superman's abilities in the Death Battle. Superman can at least move a planet 3 times the size of Earth, he can run faster than light-speed, he is durable enough to survive at least ten supernovas, his Heat Vision can reach very high temperatures (maximum temperature is unknown), high enough to "transform" the heat vision into a laser-like beams, and he can also cover the entire Earth with his Heat Vision. He can even destroy a planet with his raw strength, while Goku can do this only with ki attacks. And all these feats are done without a Sun-dip. After staying inside the Sun for 15 minutes, he could effortlessly push planets, so imagine how much overpowered the rest of his abilities would get.

Superman's power is inconsistent in many stories, so sometimes he is portrayed as weak as the videos you posted, but in other stories, he is portrayed to be as powerful as ScrewAttack had him. His maximum power feats are those that I mentioned (taken from the Death Battle). Now, if you believe that base Goku can destroy planets with his punches, can move planets in base, can run faster than the speed of light in base, and can survive supernovas, then I give up. The manga didn't show these things to me, ever.

[GoKu.SaMa]

Please do not just keep responding over and over to yourself. You can quote multiple people in a single post. Please construct your thoughts carefully and post them all at once.

Ok .

Mewzard

So superman was using less than 0.0025 % of his full power at the beginning of the fight ?
-------
And what about the fifth and the sixth point ?
-------

I did the math my self , and i didn't use any fake numbers , you can do it your self

Yes, Superman was using a fraction of a fraction of his full power. Superman has amazing power control. He can live a casual life one moment, defeat random bank robbers the next, then go fly faster than the speed of light to deliver planet shattering blows to gods in a fist fight. Superman's the epitome of controlling power. With his heat vision, he can lobotomize you at one moment:



And the next moment:



De-frosted Earth. Supes has a control of his heat vision that Goku just couldn't hope to match.

5-Are u sure ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLunw4lPi7Y

6-Why didn't he use the Spirit Bomb while using the SSJ4 and then absorb it ?

7- Ok you can do the same , you might convince me .


------

It's hard to discuss with all of you guys because i don't know a lot about superman , but he seems very weak in the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBXSoajMi1s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLunw4lPi7Y

That's the problem. The cartoons downplayed his abilities so he could face more threats, especially in Justice League. Honestly, JL weakened several of them to make it less extreme levels.

What the comics do with Superman and what alternate media do with Superman are two different things.

It's much stronger than i thought but still u can't compare it with Goku's attack .

[GoKu.SaMa]

GoKu.SaMa, just pay close attention to the analysis of Superman's abilities in the Death Battle. Superman can at least move a planet 3 times the size of Earth, he can run faster than light-speed, he is durable enough to survive at least ten supernovas, his Heat Vision can reach very high temperatures (maximum temperature is unknown), high enough to "transform" the heat vision into a laser-like beams, and he can also cover the entire Earth with his Heat Vision. He can even destroy a planet with his raw strength, while Goku can do this only with ki attacks. And all these feats are done without a Sun-dip. After staying inside the Sun for 15 minutes, he could effortlessly push planets, so imagine how much overpowered the rest of his abilities would get.

Superman's power is inconsistent in many stories, so sometimes he is portrayed as weak as the videos you posted, but in other stories, he is portrayed to be as powerful as ScrewAttack had him. His maximum power feats are those that I mentioned (taken from the Death Battle). Now, if you believe that base Goku can destroy planets with his punches, can move planets in base, can run faster than the speed of light in base, and can survive supernovas, then I give up. The manga didn't show these things to me, ever.

1- To be honest i'm not sure if Goku was really capable of moving a planet 3 times the size of the Earth .

2-Superman is faster than the light but not faster than Goku .

3-When Goku was 11 years old and his battle power was 10 , he was capable of destroying mountains with his raw strength

and now Goku is millions of times stronger than he was before , so i think he can easily destroy a planet with his raw strength .

4-Goku won't let superman reach the sun .

[dario03]

1 - Goku has never ever shown any form of physical strength that could let him move a planet. His best showings are lifting up part of a city which might of been small and struggling to hold up a large building with Vegeta, both done as a SS4. That is absolutely nothing compared to the whole planet.

2 - I would say he is, by a lot.

3 - We don't know if a 2x battle power actually makes you 2x as strong and we especially don't know if it makes you 2x as strong, fast, durable. Evidence would say that lifting strength definitely doesn't go up that much.

4 - Goku doesn't know that Superman is powered by the sun and I don't see him being capable of stopping Superman any ways.

Basically this just comes down to feats. Superman has shown physical strength far far far greater than Goku and since Goku is hurt by people at his own strength level I really don't see how Goku could survive a hit from Superman or Superman flat out just crushing him. Goku may have shown more powerful energy blasts but Superman has survived blasts like that and has actually shown that he is faster than light speed where as with Goku we just think he is based on some math that if used for Superman would still show Superman being faster.

There is something wrong with your numbers. They are contradicted by points in the series. If they were capable of moving at speeds of light or faster, they would do it. They are always taking a minute or 2 to get anywhere on the planet.

When did that happen ?

When Goku first shows off instant transmission Vegeta says its no big deal its just super fast movement. Goku then shows that he has Roshi's glasses and everyone is shocked because Roshi's was over 10,000km away. If they could move faster than light speed or even close to light speed that wouldn't be impressive at all. And theres a bunch of times where they take a while to get places, like Vegeta and Trunks flying to Cell and Goten and Trunks flying out to see Buu or Trunks going for the dragon radar.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

2-Superman is faster than the light but not faster than Goku .

Explain me why it took 6 months for Goku to reach the end of the Serpentine Road, while it takes seconds for Superman to go from the Earth to the Sun.

3-When Goku was 11 years old and his battle power was 10 , he was capable of destroying mountains with his raw strength

Where did you see that? Goku could only break rocks back then.

Oh, I forgot to mention that Superman's Heat Vision is hotter than the Sun.

[Rocketman]

Defrosted Earth

"Below-Arctic conditions in full reverse on all seven continents"

Uh...

[Bussani]

Watch the video again

See, being told this feels really weird since, as I said, we're the ones who did a good chunk of the research for the video.

i think it's obvious +Goku is Japanese and superman is American so ...

"Superman won because he's American and it's an American website" is really insulting to all the people involved with the video.

So superman was using less than 0.0025 % of his full power ?

Sure.

Goku can't use the Spirit Bomb while using the SSJ ?

According to Dragon Ball Z movie 7, no.

Yes he don't need to teleport in Earth , but it would be faster to go to far places like King Kai planet .

When Goku first shows off his ability to teleport, Vegeta scoffs and says he was just using super speed. The scoff is wiped off his face the moment he's told that Goku teleported 10,000 kilometers. Ergo, Goku is too slow to travel 10,000 kilometers in a couple of seconds, which makes him much slower than light.

If Dragon Ball characters were faster than light, they would all be able to get anywhere on Earth in fractions of seconds.

[valfranx]

SlimJ87D:

Superman can survive inside a black hole unharmed

Let's analyze this assertion. Generally speaking, whenever a user submits that Superman can withstand the power of a singularity, they reference him "holding a black hole in his hand" or "flying out of a double black hole." The problem is that both of these examples disregard context. There are two occasions, to my knowledge, where Superman has come in close proximity to a black hole, both of which strained him profusely. The other instance pertaining to a "dual black hole" is completely misrepresented. If there are any other instances of Superman flying into a black hole, I hardly profess to being the most knowledgeable Superman reader, but these are the ones that are usually brought up by users here (myself included; this is as much a correction on my part as on other people's).

First, this showing is from Action Comics Annual #7. In this comic, Superman flies into space to fight the H'tros. While he destroys the H'tros vessels, one of them hurls a grenade that opens a small black hole. Superman notices this and attempts to resist its pull before being pulled in. On the rare occasion that I have seen users address this event, they usually present it as if Superman was pulled into the black hole and then escaped, but this never happened. He recognizes the black hole and flies away from it. However, the gravitational pull is powerful enough that Superman feels like his legs could be torn off. He endures genuine harm from this, and he is not even inside the black hole. Once Superman escapes its pull, he hurls a ship into its maw to collapse it. The minute size of this black hole and the fact that it could be closed by simply tossing a relatively average-sized vessel into it lead me to believe that this artificial singularity was hardly as powerful as is usually predisposed when people think of resisting the effects of a black hole, and more than that, Superman was under extreme duress just by being near it.






With that said, this comic was labeled a "Year One" story in the opening, and this was written as Superman's first space adventure. So it could be surmised that he was just not as powerful as he was later on and could therefore survive inside a black hole later in his career, an erroneous conclusion which leads us to the next example.


This is from JLA #77. To elaborate on what precedes this, a being called Mnemon uses gravity to steal people's memories, because his creator wanted to accumulate the purest expressions of art and music from the memories of entire civilizations across the universe. So Mnemon exists inside a small device that encapsulates him and his black hole in a magnetic field designed by his creator to contain him as he traverses the universe to obtain art from people's minds. (That really is all I can say about the backstory of this event because the plot of this issue is a convoluted mess.) He arrives on the moon where John Stewart and the Atom find him. Atom shrinks down to discover the singularity obstructed inside the magnetic field. Mnemon utilizes gravity to steal the JLA's memories, but their memories are restored by the Atom and Superman wrecking part of the systems of the device that houses Mnemon. After this, Mnemon pierces the magnetic field containing him, and Superman tries to stop his escape. This is where he holds the black hole. He and Green Lantern travel to a wormhole where he throws Mnemon into the wormhole. Now, why this is not impressive: the black hole inside the magnetic containment field is, according to the Atom, about the size of a dust particle, and once Superman picks it up, he can barely withstand its gravity. Even when Green Lantern helps stabilize it, Superman still feels as if his hand could be ripped apart. They only manage to reach the wormhole they hurl it into by generating a magnetic field around the singularity to suppress its effects. The containment of this singularity also leaves me with some question about its actual power, but I will leave that aside. The point is, even with Stewart's aid, Superman is hurt enormously by a dust-sized, infinitesimal black hole.







Lastly, the "double black hole" incident from Superman #191. This is just a misconstrued event because there actually is no black hole here. This actually is a wormhole connecting earth to Baxt's homeworld. To assess it point by point, Superman arrives at the S.T.A.R. Labs building where a rift is open. He flies inside to meet Baxt, who was trapped inside when he entered it from his own world. Baxt is unable to leave the rift on his own; so he reinforces Superman's efforts to escape by holding the rift open long enough for Superman to fly out and close the rift, which Superman does by flying into S.T.A.R. Labs and, apparently, (though this is shown only in one panel and without much explanation) shuts off the machine that opened the rift in the first place. Doing this closes the rift also on Baxt's world, where he arrives at once the rift is no longer present there.

Now, why do people think this is a black hole that Superman flew into? Because when he first flies into the rift, he muses about the composition of black holes, and from there, readers draw the conclusion that he was inside one. However, Superman also muses that two black holes interlocked with a passageway could form a divide in the space/time continuum, essentially generating a rift in space or a wormhole. He then goes on to say that there is no proof this could happen. Now, you could object to my saying that he was not in a black hole by isolating his statement that there is no evidence for that phenomena, but that would be reading it improperly. Superman's thought-narration was him elucidating on how the rift occurred in the first place; his suggestion that there is no evidence for a wormhole composing itself from twin black holes was expositional irony. You can tell very clearly that he was not inside a black hole if you pay attention to context. The problem is that most users simply post him emerging from the wormhole but not what happened aside from that. The first few pages show an immense rift protruding from the S.T.A.R. Labs building; had this been a black hole, it would have consumed the building. A military official informs Superman that S.T.A.R. Labs scientists opened the rift, after which pulsating energy coruscates out of it and hits the military personnel. Baxt notes that the wormhole appeared in his city as well, to which he investigated it by flying inside it. Once the rift is closed, Baxt is returned to his own planet/dimension with there being no noticeable destruction caused in the area, and others watching this once again refer to the wormhole as a "rift." The general behavior and appearance of this rift is not like a black hole; its properties and Superman's exposition attest to it being a wormhole. Hence, this is not proof of Superman surviving inside a black hole.

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Conclusion: Superman has never survived inside a black hole to my knowledge. Like I said, if someone else knows of a feat I personally am not aware of, I would like to see it, because as it stands, these showings actually better serve to prove that Superman can't survive inside a black hole.

Superman can destroy a planet with heat vision because he heated up a planet with heat vision

This is just out of context. The showing people are referring to is from Adventures of Superman #620. In this comic (the plot of which, coincidentally, is as much of a mess as JLA #77), a celestial body called Cannibal Planet flies toward the sun, which causes the earth to lose solar heat and assume frigid temperatures around the globe. Superman flies to the sun to stop the Cannibal Planet, and then, to remedy the problem of lack of heat, he fires his heat vision at the earth to resume its normal temperature. Why is this out of context when placed in a battle thread? Two reasons: Number 1, Superman was sun-amped. He flew right at the sun to deal with the Cannibal Planet which crested itself on the sun's surface. Being that close to the sun, Superman's powers would be increased. Number 2, this is not a combat feat. Superman is heating up the planet, yes, but what function does that serve in a battle setting? His heat vision doesn't even cause damage to the earth, because the purpose is to reset the global temperatures. There is even a page of the Candidate standing in the rays of Superman's heat vision completely unfazed. All Superman did here was basically act as a surrogate sun for a brief period. No one and nothing was harmed; so why is this even mentioned in battle threads? An amped Superman not destroying anything with his heat vision is a useless showing to bring up in battle settings, and it lends no credence to the theory that he could destroy a planet with HV.

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Superman moved a planet?

I guess the scan didn't show Hal Jordan in there helping him move it either. The other thing is that they were moving the planet back into Orbit, not away and opposite of the way it was orbiting. Superboy-Prime moved planets easily, those were moving planet feats. He moved them out of orbit and into other areas they shouldn't have been.


Superman didn't move a machine the size of Jupiter. He was being dominated telepathically and chained. When the telepathic link was severed he broke the chains and flew off to stop Maggedon. It would seem you're going for a record for most feats debunked.

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Superman can survive a supernova?

Even our star in our solar system is not large enough to create a supernova.



scans are showing a normal explosion of a small sun. You know how I know? Because a supernova lasts for days:




Just because a star explodes it does not mean it is a supernova. The sun that exploded here was just a sun. And it KOed him. So all it took was the energy in a small volume of Superman's size to KO him.

more info here:
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles ... er/721916/

[Rocketman]

An exploding star is a supernova. That is literally the definition.

[Bussani]

Superman is heating up the planet, yes, but what function does that serve in a battle setting? His heat vision doesn't even cause damage to the earth, because the purpose is to reset the global temperatures. There is even a page of the Candidate standing in the rays of Superman's heat vision completely unfazed.

An ant can stand in sunlight completely unfazed...until you use a magnifying glass.

[valfranx]

An exploding star is a supernova. That is literally the definition.

Depends on the star. the sun or a star dwarf not produce a supernova. as said SlimJ87D: "supernovae lasts days."

I guess you do not really read the topic or even understand the context, here the specific topic about modern superman and their durability (+concepts of supernovae)

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles ... 99/?page=8

An ant can stand in sunlight completely unfazed...until you use a magnifying glass.

More and not quite the case here, the context here is different. in the context superman can not warm the planet with its own power or can not increase the width of your HV has proved useless in the attempt at destroying planets with HV, then a display useless as SlimJ87D said:

This is just out of context. The showing people are referring to is from Adventures of Superman #620. In this comic (the plot of which, coincidentally, is as much of a mess as JLA #77), a celestial body called Cannibal Planet flies toward the sun, which causes the earth to lose solar heat and assume frigid temperatures around the globe. Superman flies to the sun to stop the Cannibal Planet, and then, to remedy the problem of lack of heat, he fires his heat vision at the earth to resume its normal temperature. Why is this out of context when placed in a battle thread? Two reasons: Number 1, Superman was sun-amped. He flew right at the sun to deal with the Cannibal Planet which crested itself on the sun's surface. Being that close to the sun, Superman's powers would be increased. Number 2, this is not a combat feat. Superman is heating up the planet, yes, but what function does that serve in a battle setting?

Another good example is the pre-crisis Superman destroying a solar system with a sneeze, he sneezed and sneezed several times before destroying the solar system and the other reason was the magic powder that made him stay sneezing nonstop. 've seen Superman fans say it was a galaxy, the more the image says a solar system. I've seen one made classic Superman destroying a moon, most fans say superman image showed a planet being destroyed, even the text saying it was a moon. Not that Pre-Crisis can not destroy a planet or solar system, I believe he can and has done other deeds showing this., in this context not.

Now look in this context, where we have shown a display that pre-crisis and strong and able to move the earth.


if you that know what is truth or myths about feats of characters from comics, I recommend this topic, done by people who like to clarify several issues for for several, fans.
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles ... er/721916/

i and a friend we will make the animation of goku vs pre-crisis, with infos, in minimal details about the high-end feats of both. were just planned well before the death battle and were going to launch, but was Announced the new film, we Decided to wait to add the information to our research, we try to contact the ScrewAttack , to share, the our research for they make a epic wdeathbattle with pre-crisis superman vs goku.

[dbzfan7]

i and a friend we will make the animation of goku vs pre-crisis, with infos, in minimal details about the high-end feats of both. were just planned well before the death battle and were going to launch, but was Announced the new film, we Decided to wait to add the information to our research, we try to contact the ScrewAttack , to share, the our research for they make a epic wdeathbattle with pre-crisis superman vs goku.

I would not suggest using Pre-Crisis Superman, He has a tendency for pulling super powers out of his ass and I think it was this version that held the book with infinity pages with Captain Marvel. I would suggest going Post-Crisis since Pre-Crisis is the definition of inconsistent.

[GoKu.SaMa]

1 - Goku has never ever shown any form of physical strength that could let him move a planet. His best showings are lifting up part of a city which might of been small and struggling to hold up a large building with Vegeta, both done as a SS4. That is absolutely nothing compared to the whole planet.

2 - I would say he is, by a lot.

3 - We don't know if a 2x battle power actually makes you 2x as strong and we especially don't know if it makes you 2x as strong, fast, durable. Evidence would say that lifting strength definitely doesn't go up that much.

4 - Goku doesn't know that Superman is powered by the sun and I don't see him being capable of stopping Superman any ways.

Basically this just comes down to feats. Superman has shown physical strength far far far greater than Goku and since Goku is hurt by people at his own strength level I really don't see how Goku could survive a hit from Superman or Superman flat out just crushing him. Goku may have shown more powerful energy blasts but Superman has survived blasts like that and has actually shown that he is faster than light speed where as with Goku we just think he is based on some math that if used for Superman would still show Superman being faster.

There is something wrong with your numbers. They are contradicted by points in the series. If they were capable of moving at speeds of light or faster, they would do it. They are always taking a minute or 2 to get anywhere on the planet.

When did that happen ?

When Goku first shows off instant transmission Vegeta says its no big deal its just super fast movement. Goku then shows that he has Roshi's glasses and everyone is shocked because Roshi's was over 10,000km away. If they could move faster than light speed or even close to light speed that wouldn't be impressive at all. And theres a bunch of times where they take a while to get places, like Vegeta and Trunks flying to Cell and Goten and Trunks flying out to see Buu or Trunks going for the dragon radar.

1-I don't discuss about Gt because evey thing in Gt is wrong .
2-Why do u think Superman is faster than Goku ?
3-I will talk about that later .
4-Goku is capable of sensing the ki energy , so he will notice that superman's power is increasing while he is flying , and he can stop him by the teleport technique.

2-Superman is faster than the light but not faster than Goku .

Explain me why it took 6 months for Goku to reach the end of the Serpentine Road, while it takes seconds for Superman to go from the Earth to the Sun.

3-When Goku was 11 years old and his battle power was 10 , he was capable of destroying mountains with his raw strength

Where did you see that? Goku could only break rocks back then.

Oh, I forgot to mention that Superman's Heat Vision is hotter than the Sun.

Even if we did the math this way , Goku still faster than Superman. .

At that time Goku's battle power was 308 ,and it took from him 6 months to reach the end of the Snake Road.
After training with King kai , Goku's battle power increased to 8,000 (x26) , and he spend two days to reach the end of the road,so he became 90 times faster than he was before , and that means the first type of lightning is 43.6 times faster than Goku's speed at that time ,so when Goku's battle power increased to 116,266 he became as fast as the first type of lightning ,and when his battle power increased to 155,021,333 he became as fast as the second type of lightning, and when his battle power increased to 465,063,999 he became as fast as the light ,so if base Goku's battle power was x3.8 Freeza's battle power then Goku is 4000 times faster than the light , and i am sure Goku is much faster than that .
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Look here goku destroyed the bricks with one finger


And here he did this by squeezing , and destroying by squeezing is much harder than destroying with a punch or a kick


And Yamch destroyed big rocks with a draft in the anime .

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Can you prove that superman's heat vision is hotter than the sun?

[valfranx]

i and a friend we will make the animation of goku vs pre-crisis, with infos, in minimal details about the high-end feats of both. were just planned well before the death battle and were going to launch, but was Announced the new film, we Decided to wait to add the information to our research, we try to contact the ScrewAttack , to share, the our research for they make a epic wdeathbattle with pre-crisis superman vs goku.

I would not suggest using Pre-Crisis Superman, He has a tendency for pulling super powers out of his ass and I think it was this version that held the book with infinity pages with Captain Marvel. I would suggest going Post-Crisis since Pre-Crisis is the definition of inconsistent.

not was the pre-crisis that held the book with
infinity pages, was a feat inconsistent of modern superman. as the punch of infinite mass that not is anything amazing and can be a big disadvantage if he can not hit your opponent as much energy expended with this punch and then becomes unconscious and without energy, as also not caused damage anything impressive.

more pre-crisis could do this:



as I told them, we're expecting the new movie to see if has any interesting information that could make a difference in goku vs pre-crisis. one thing is certain magical beings, are the that has more chances to win of pre-crisis.

[dbzfan7]

i and a friend we will make the animation of goku vs pre-crisis, with infos, in minimal details about the high-end feats of both. were just planned well before the death battle and were going to launch, but was Announced the new film, we Decided to wait to add the information to our research, we try to contact the ScrewAttack , to share, the our research for they make a epic wdeathbattle with pre-crisis superman vs goku.

I would not suggest using Pre-Crisis Superman, He has a tendency for pulling super powers out of his ass and I think it was this version that held the book with infinity pages with Captain Marvel. I would suggest going Post-Crisis since Pre-Crisis is the definition of inconsistent.

not was the pre-crisis that held the book with
infinity pages, was a feat inconsistent of modern superman. as the punch of infinite mass and not anything amazing and can be a big disadvantage if he can not hit your opponent as much energy expended with this punch and then becomes unconscious and without energy, as also not caused damage anything impressive.

more pre-crisis could do this:



as I told them, we're expecting the new movie to see if has any interesting information that could make a difference in goku vs pre-crisis. one thing is certain magical beings, are the that has more chances to win of pre-crisis.

I'm gonna need you to spell and grammar check that last post as I have no idea what you just said. Also the upcoming movie is a different Superman then Pre-Crisis so I don't see how that will help your research.

[valfranx]

Gather sufficient information to show That we need not use DBGT against pre-crisis, because is a exaggeration. Herms translated a guide with an information That says that vegito is more strong than a ssj4. imagine a Vegito ssj4, could be even more powerful than the ssj4 gogeta.

we want to see the movie of dbz to see the upgrade that goku will win with the ssjg.