Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:It's also stated that human-Saiyan half breeds have more potential than Saiyan pure bloods somewhere in the Daizenshuus.
Is not my goal contradict Daizenshuus but, that don´t make any sense to me.
Again my friend: Combination of human weak blood and Saiyan = Most powerfull Saiyan? Oh no, that´s a big error to me. Why Boo becomes weak when absorbs fat Supreme Kaio? I don´t get it. The Supremes Kaios blood are very powerful; even the blood of that Fat happy Supreme Kaio.
Cheers
Human blood just expands potential for some reason. If the Daizenshuus state this, then it is the case.
Vegeta simply stated it in the Saiyan Saga. Mixture of Saiyan/Human blood brings much more potential, and this is why Gohan always suddenly multiplies his power whenever he is angry. And also how Gohan was able to go from maybe 20,000 all the way to 1,000,000 after seeing Krillin impaled by Frieza and sinking into the ocean. Thats as much of an increase as SSJ. LOL and that was before anyone was a SSJ.
No one's anger does this like Gohan's. Obviously human blood mixed with Saiyan blood is quite the culprit.
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku
Movie 13 is total BS when we are talking about who is stronger. In Buu saga, we got Super Buu who is confirmed to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku, then Gohan comes along and could defeat him without effort. But in Wrath of the Dragon, Gohan isn't even able to beat the lower half of Hirudegarn, but Goku "one hits" the completed and full power Hirudegarn with his Dragon Fist? And this couldn't have taken place that much after the Buu saga, considering both Goten and Trunks look just like they did then, also Gohan does not turn SSJ which means his Ultimate power was still with him. But the power scaling was flip-flopped for absolutely no reason, making Goku the hero again. Total BS.
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:Movie 13 is total BS when we are talking about who is stronger. In Buu saga, we got Super Buu who is confirmed to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku, then Gohan comes along and could defeat him without effort. But in Wrath of the Dragon, Gohan isn't even able to beat the lower half of Hirudegarn, but Goku "one hits" the completed and full power Hirudegarn with his Dragon Fist? And this couldn't have taken place that much after the Buu saga, considering both Goten and Trunks look just like they did then, also Gohan does not turn SSJ which means his Ultimate power was still with him. But the power scaling was flip-flopped for absolutely no reason, making Goku the hero again. Total BS.
An easy way to reconcile this is to regard the Dragon Fist to be similar in power to the Genki Dama, in that neither's potency are dependent on the power of the user.
GoKu.SaMa wrote:
Goku is the hero , so of course he is the strongest.
Define hero.
the different between him and Gohan was not that big even before 10 years
It was big.
You said that Oob showed his real power after using the Kiai , and Goku took that attack with no damage and he was using 0.0025 % of his full power , so imagine his full power ......
Kiai is not supposed to do much damage.
Gotenks > Super buu >Goku
But the different between them is not big at all and Super Buu + Gotenks is much stronger than Gohan so .....
------------
Yes but it should have done more damage if Goku was weaker than Gohan .
Freeza did almost the same damage and he was weaker than Goku .
Saiyan Prince Vegeta wrote:So since Gohan is in his Ultimate state in the new movie I'm going to say SSJ3 Goku is stronger.
Why?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Saiyan Prince Vegeta wrote:Because from what I've seen, Goku is the only one who looks to be putting up a bit of a fight. I guess it's to early to judge though....
Saiyan Prince Vegeta wrote:Because from what I've seen, Goku is the only one who looks to be putting up a bit of a fight. I guess it's to early to judge though....
Goku, and Vegeta as well apparently.
Haha I'd love that. Vegeta didn't do anything though did he? I just remember seeing him getting a beating.
GoKu.SaMa wrote:Goku is the hero , so of course he is the strongest.
Originally, the main protagonist of the Boo arc was Gohan (along with Goten & Trunks), and it seems that Toriyama intended Ultimate Gohan (possibly together with SS3 Gotenks) to be the one who would defeat Boo, but changed his mind at the last moment and decided that the one who would save the day would be Goku again. Which is why Toriyama made Boo revert back to Pure Boo, so that Goku will have a villain at his level, since Evil Boo was way stronger than SS3 Goku.
GoKu.SaMa wrote:Goku spend 10 years training after defeating Buu and 10 years is not a short period of time , and the different between him and Gohan was not that big even before 10 years so i think it's obvious ....
Never in the history of the Dragon Ball (manga) has anyone, ever, become over 400 times stronger by just training on Earth. You are saying that Goku became more than 400 times stronger without transforming, without weigh/gravity training, without near-death power-ups, without getting his dormant power unleashed by a god or a godly item, and without entering inside the Room of Spirit & Time. Because there is no indication that any of these happened. We know that relaxed Oob isn't anything special, we saw Oob getting stronger when he first got angry, and Daizenshuu confirmed that Oob got even stronger when he threw his Kiai.
GoKu.SaMa wrote:You said that Oob showed his real power after using the Kiai , and Goku took that attack with no damage and he was using 0.0025 % of his full power , so imagine his full power ......
1-Goku is the one who defeated the last enemy not Gohan , every one knows that Goku is the hero not Gohan .
2-I didn't say 400 times .
3-Goku was stronger than Jheece and Butta twice .
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
MDSTSSJ wrote:We know nothing about Kakarotto's training during those 10 years.
That's true, but we have seen lots of times how strong they can get after training only, so we can guess about how much stronger he got. He trained for 7 years in Heaven with Kaio, and did weight training, and the only thing he could manage is to surpass SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, and not by much.
From what we know, the only possible way for base Goku to have gotten so much stronger is with the help of Rou Kaioshin's ability, but it doesn't seem to be the case, since Goku doesn't have any of Ultimate Gohan's characteristics, and looks exactly the same as he always did.
MDSTSSJ wrote:Kakarotto never fought seriously against Oob. He was always testing power and pushing Oob's limits.
It's true that he was testing Oob, but he seemed serious to me. Oob's kick hurt Goku's arm, he barely dodged Oob's punch, and when their hits clashed... just look at the ring's condition.
After 7 years of training Goku became more than 4 times stronger than SSJ2 Gohan , so of course after 10 years of training he can be stronger than Mystic Gohan.
I don't think Gohan was ever surpassed (except in the upcoming movie with SSJ God). Goku as an SSJ was already close to Cell Games Gohan SSJ before the 7 years. After the seven years he is only somewhat above SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan without including SSJ3. That means he didn't get drastically stronger (I would say 2-3x maybe). Piccolo classifies Majin Vegeta as around SSJ2 Gohan back then and Vegeta says Goku is stronger then Gohan was. I find it hard to believe Goku could get 400x stronger in 10 years when no boost like that has ever been seen. Zenkais have become insignificant according to the daizenshuu, and he trained only on earth. I say he could get maybe 4x stronger at best. That still pales to Gohan.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:I don't think Gohan was ever surpassed (except in the upcoming movie with SSJ God). Goku as an SSJ was already close to Cell Games Gohan SSJ before the 7 years. After the seven years he is only somewhat above SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan without including SSJ3. That means he didn't get drastically stronger (I would say 2-3x maybe). Piccolo classifies Majin Vegeta as around SSJ2 Gohan back then and Vegeta says Goku is stronger then Gohan was. I find it hard to believe Goku could get 400x stronger in 10 years when no boost like that has ever been seen. Zenkais have become insignificant according to the daizenshuu, and he trained only on earth. I say he could get maybe 4x stronger at best. That still pales to Gohan.
Well.... Goku did fairly intense weight training.. at least in the Anime that was shown.
And remember when Goku was on his way to Namek and he got several times stronger in just 5 days? He went from only 8,000 to 90,000 base (not counting a potential 10x kaioken stating he could already use). He did most likely undergo a Zenkai; but that couldn't have made it any higher than a 6,000 or 8,000 additional boost.
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku
Saiyan Prince Vegeta wrote:Because from what I've seen, Goku is the only one who looks to be putting up a bit of a fight. I guess it's to early to judge though....
Goku, and Vegeta as well apparently.
If Vegeta stands any chance, Toriyama must have made him SSJ3. This is the only way he make any sort of a difference in a fight with these new enemies.
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku
Saiyan Prince Vegeta wrote:So since Gohan is in his Ultimate state in the new movie I'm going to say SSJ3 Goku is stronger.
Is or isn't in Ultimate Form? We all know ultimate Gohan was the strongest character (again, we know he was never was the HERO!!.. but you can't blame a dead guy for not defeating Kid Buu.... Sigh. Earth was destroyed so only Goku and Vegeta were there to even fight buu. If Gohan was there, he wouldn't need a Spirit bomb or even a kamehameha to finish off buu.)
Last edited by Eternal Super Saiyan on Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:If Vegeta stands any chance, Toriyama must have made him SSJ3. This is the only way he make any sort of a difference in a fight with these new enemies.
Vegeta is useless since Cell arc. Going Super Saiyan 3 won't make any difference, he is still going to get his ass kicked.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
dbzfan7 wrote:I don't think Gohan was ever surpassed (except in the upcoming movie with SSJ God). Goku as an SSJ was already close to Cell Games Gohan SSJ before the 7 years. After the seven years he is only somewhat above SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan without including SSJ3. That means he didn't get drastically stronger (I would say 2-3x maybe). Piccolo classifies Majin Vegeta as around SSJ2 Gohan back then and Vegeta says Goku is stronger then Gohan was. I find it hard to believe Goku could get 400x stronger in 10 years when no boost like that has ever been seen. Zenkais have become insignificant according to the daizenshuu, and he trained only on earth. I say he could get maybe 4x stronger at best. That still pales to Gohan.
Well.... Goku did fairly intense weight training.. at least in the Anime that was shown.
And remember when Goku was on his way to Namek and he got several times stronger in just 5 days? He went from only 8,000 to 90,000 base (not counting a potential 10x kaioken stating he could already use). He did most likely undergo a Zenkai; but that couldn't have made it any higher than a 6,000 or 8,000 additional boost.
In the seven years he barely got stronger. He was started somewhat below SSJ Gohan and became somewhat stronger then SSJ2 Gohan Cell Games. That is a minimal increase. Goku got that much stronger on the way to namek because he abused zenkais and had gravity training. Both examples are still way below the 400x increase people think Goku got.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:I don't think Gohan was ever surpassed (except in the upcoming movie with SSJ God). Goku as an SSJ was already close to Cell Games Gohan SSJ before the 7 years. After the seven years he is only somewhat above SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan without including SSJ3. That means he didn't get drastically stronger (I would say 2-3x maybe). Piccolo classifies Majin Vegeta as around SSJ2 Gohan back then and Vegeta says Goku is stronger then Gohan was. I find it hard to believe Goku could get 400x stronger in 10 years when no boost like that has ever been seen. Zenkais have become insignificant according to the daizenshuu, and he trained only on earth. I say he could get maybe 4x stronger at best. That still pales to Gohan.
Well.... Goku did fairly intense weight training.. at least in the Anime that was shown.
And remember when Goku was on his way to Namek and he got several times stronger in just 5 days? He went from only 8,000 to 90,000 base (not counting a potential 10x kaioken stating he could already use). He did most likely undergo a Zenkai; but that couldn't have made it any higher than a 6,000 or 8,000 additional boost.
In the seven years he barely got stronger. He was started somewhat below SSJ Gohan and became somewhat stronger then SSJ2 Gohan Cell Games. That is a minimal increase. Goku got that much stronger on the way to namek because he abused zenkais and had gravity training. Both examples are still way below the 400x increase people think Goku got.
Whoever said 400x... I missed that obviously. Holy Sh*t. 400x? I figured maybe 5x at most...
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:Whoever said 400x... I missed that obviously. Holy Sh*t. 400x? I figured maybe 5x at most...
Because of the whole Oob thing people think he got over 400x stronger. Only in GT he did that as he has full access to the power of GT logic. I figure he could get 3x at most.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:Whoever said 400x... I missed that obviously. Holy Sh*t. 400x? I figured maybe 5x at most...
Because of the whole Oob thing people think he got over 400x stronger. Only in GT he did that as he has full access to the power of GT logic. I figure he could get 3x at most.
GT is like AF. That story can do what it wants, no matter how unrealistic it is. Base Kid Goku > SSJ3 Z Goku = still mind boggles the living f**k out of me.
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku
Vegeta didn't do anything though did he? I just remember seeing him getting a beating. 
