Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[Bussani]

Like Screwattacks i did the math depending on the Snake Road .

But unlike ScrewAttack, you try to scale that forward using battle powers and end up contradicting the story. Toriyama didn't seem to want to make them as fast as your calculations say they should be. I think it's a bit naive to expect the story to fit math as simple as, "his battle power is thousands of times higher, so he should be thousands of times faster".

[Hellspawn28]

Here's a related question. Why didn't Akira Toriyama make it more apparent how strong and fast his characters are?

Why it would matter? I doubt AT cares about stupid fantasy matches on the Internet 20+ years later.

[valfranx]

forget weight lifting. in fightings is more important, the feats of strength as this here:

Destructive Capacity Chart:

1. Street Level (0 tons) - A (somewhat misleading) term used by Marvel Comics to refer to human characters.

Examples: Solid Snake from Metal Gear, Motoko Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell, Captain America from Marvel Comics

2. Wall Level (0 tons) - Characters that can destroy at least 1m^3 of stone-like material.

Examples: Satellizer L. Bridget and others from Freezing

3. Small Building Level (0.005 tons) - Characters that can destroy a small building or 25m^3 of stone-like material.

Examples:

4. Building Level (0.25 tons) - Characters that can destroy a normal building or at least 200m^3 of stone-like material.

Clare and others from Claymore

Examples:

5. Large Building Level (2 tons) - Characters that can destroy a large building.

Examples:

6. City Block Level (11 tons) - Characters that can destroy a Manhattan-like city block.

Examples: Many HST characters

7. Multi City Block Level (44 tons) - Characters that can destroy double the previous.

Examples: Claymore high tiers

8. Town/Hill Level (5.8 kilotons) - Characters that can destroy a settlement of at least 1 kilometer, or a rock formation of meters.

Examples:

Most HST high tiers

9. City/Mountain Level (6.3 megatons) - Characters that can destroy a settlement of at least 10 kilometers or a rock formation of kilometers.

Examples: Yu Yu Hakusho S Classes, HST top tiers, Iron Man

10. Island Level (4.6 gigatons) - Characters that can destroy a large island.

Examples: 23rd Bodoukai Goku and Piccolo from Dragon Ball

11. Country Level (7 teratons) - Characters that can destroy an average-area country.

Examples: Lavos from Chrono Trigger,

12. Continent Level (1.33 petatons) - Characters that can destroy an average-area continent.

Examples: Jyoka from Houshin Engi

13. Moon/Planetoid Level (29 exatons) - Characters that can destroy the Moon or an equivalent astronomical body.

Examples: Z from Tenchi Muyo!


14. Small Planet Level (433 exatons) - Characters that can destroy Mercury or an equivalent astronomical body.

Examples: Alkanphel from Bio-Booster Armor Guyver, Zekka from Battle Angel Alita

15. Planet Level (57.3 zettatons) - Characters that can destroy Earth or an equivalent astronomical body.

Examples: Many Part II Dragon Ball characters, some Sailor Moon characters

16. Large Planet Level (2.7 yottatons) - Characters that can destroy Uranus or an equivalent astronomical body.

Examples: Jedah from Darkstalkers, Dragon Ball high tiers, the Death Star from Star Wars

17. Small Star Level (3,840,546 yottatons) - Characters that can destroy the smallest known star.

Examples:

18. Star Level (164,913,957 yottatons) - Characters that can destroy the Sun.

Examples: Seraph angels from Bastard!!

19. Large Star Level (330,544,933.08 yottatons) - Characters that can destroy blue giant stars (Spectral Class B-O), represented by Rigel.

Examples: Thor and other Herald level characters from Marvel

20. Star System Level (? yottatons) - Characters that can destroy a solar system equivalent to our own.

Examples: Michael from Bastard!!, Thanos from Marvel

21. Galaxy Level (approx 164,913,957,000,000,000,000 yottatons) - Characters that can destroy a galaxy equivalent to the Milky Way

http://deadliestfictionalwarrior.wikisp ... e+capacity

ps: Yotta is the largest unit prefix in the International System of Units (SI), denoting a factor of 1024 or 1000000000000000000000000. It has the unit symbol Y.

The total power output of the Sun is approximately 385 YW.
The observable universe is estimated to be 880 Ym in diameter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yotta-

[Hellspawn28]

I don't understand why it's so difficult to accept that Goku isn't the strongest dude ever.

Yeah since it seems like most DBZ fans refuse to accept that. It's funny that some DBZ fans act like Goku is the strongest character even when he didn't even beat Buu and Super Yi Xing Long under his own power.

[GoKu.SaMa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLunw4lPi7Y

1. Why is that a problem? Goku had trouble holding up 40 tons in base form when he was dead for 7 years. That building might of been 2-300,000 tons.

2. I don't recall where the other 2 examples are from off the top of my head but the Vega example is from Countdown 48. Basically Jimmy Olsen rushes outside because theres something strange going on up in the sky, as he is leaving the Daily Planet building he signals Superman with his signal watch, then Jimmy quickly saves a couple of people (because he starts having super powers for some reason), and while he is talking to them a new god crashes down nearby, Jimmy walks over and then Superman shows up and says "Sorry I'm late I was out near Vega when I got your ---". So basically your looking at lightyears travelled in minutes. And I already said that Superman isn't usually as fast as the Flash but he is close and even if he wasn't and was only 1/1,000,000th as fast as the Flash he would still be well over 8000x faster than the speed of light if we do the math.

4. You mean that video that you are disagreeing with? If you're going to use the death battle video to prove that Goku can sense Supermans power then we can just say that Superman is faster, stronger, and more durable because thats what they said. And so what if Superman isn't a android, 17 and 18 are just modified Humans not full on robots but none of the Z fighters could sense their power. I would say its because their power is different than the ki that Goku is used to and so is Superman's power. But again I don't think that matters any ways because personally I think Superman wouldn't need a sun dip to beat Goku and if he wanted to go for a dip he would despite Goku's efforts.

1-It was 400 tons + at that time Goku was more than 4000 times stronger than he was before .

2-I couldn't find the chapter .

4-We can take the right informations only , it's simple 17 and 18 are androids but Superman is not , so why can't they sense his energy ?

and as i said before Goku will notice that superman's speed is increasing .

How many times are you going to post that video? Which by the way we've already said multiple times that Superman from the animated series is weak. Oh and that video proves nothing about Superman compared to the Flash.

1. It was 40 tons and 4,000 times 40tons is 160,000tons which is the weight of a large building but no where near as much as very large buildings. So I'm not seeing a problem since it doesn't seem like lifting strength goes up with power levels at a even rate, notice that base Goku had a power level at least in the millions and struggled with 40tons (or even 400tons if you prefer). Heck you could easily say that the problem is that GT made him to strong and that him lifting a building that big is being generous. But this really doesn't matter because even if it was 400 tons and even if Goku was 4,000,000,000,000,000 times as strong his physical strength is still no where near Superman's shown feats.

2. I don't know what to tell you. Its there, its Countdown 48 Death Of A New God, May 30, 2007.

4. I already explained why they might not sense Superman's power. The Z fighters have shown that they can sense ki, the androids and Superman are not powered by Ki, the androids power is artificial and Superman's is from the Sun. And so what if Goku notices Superman's speed increasing, like I said if we are going to base speed off of math then Superman at full speed would be at the sun in nearly a instant and theres no way Goku could stop him which also doesn't matter because Superman wouldn't need to Sun dip.

Sorry i meant this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBXSoajMi1s

------------

1-I don't think that building's wight is 160,000 tons , under x10 gravity it's 400 tons not 40 .

4-If superman's power source was the sun then we can say that Goku can't sense his energy but unfortunately it's not .

[GoKu.SaMa]

Like Screwattacks i did the math depending on the Snake Road .

But unlike ScrewAttack, you try to scale that forward using battle powers and end up contradicting the story. Toriyama didn't seem to want to make them as fast as your calculations say they should be. I think it's a bit naive to expect the story to fit math as simple as, "his battle power is thousands of times higher, so he should be thousands of times faster".

What is wrong with my calculations ?

I did it the same way Screwattacks did .

If we can't know how strong is Goku the battle power , then how can we ?

and how did i contradicted the story ?

[Bussani]

What is wrong with my calculations ?

I did it the same way Screwattacks did .

If we can't know how strong is Goku the battle power , then how can we ?

ScrewAttack said from the get go that they weren't going to use battle powers and power scaling. They went off of feats and feats alone. Saying "Goku got this much strong so he must be this much faster" results in crazy figures that don't fit the feats. To me, this suggests that a linear progression in speed is the wrong way to look at it. Perhaps, like in real life, it's more complicated than that, and the increases in speed actually become smaller and smaller the faster the characters get.

Of course, the truth is that the author likely never thought about math or progressions like this at all, and just made the characters as much faster as he wanted them to be. This makes trying to predict their speed increases using logic a pointless endeavourer. I'm just saying that if we had to apply some kind of math to what we're shown, I'd pick something that fits better than what you're suggesting.

and how did i contradicted the story ?

By your logic, Goku, after Namek, should be fast enough to travel from where he landed on Earth to Kame House in seconds, without teleporting. None of the characters believe this is possible. Moreover, if his speed kept increasing from there the way you think it should, everyone would be able to get anywhere on Earth in less than a second. No one ever displays that much speed, even when they're trying to get somewhere in a hurry.

[Rocketman]

19. Large Star Level (330,544,933.08 yottatons) - Characters that can destroy blue giant stars (Spectral Class B-O), represented by Rigel.

Examples: Thor and other Herald level characters from Marvel

So can we get Thor vs Goku? I wanna see the crying after Goku gets his face smashed in.

[TheMightyOzaru]

19. Large Star Level (330,544,933.08 yottatons) - Characters that can destroy blue giant stars (Spectral Class B-O), represented by Rigel.

Examples: Thor and other Herald level characters from Marvel

So can we get Thor vs Goku? I wanna see the crying after Goku gets his face smashed in.

Why do you dislike Goku so much? Is it because he gets to sleep with Chichi and you don't ?

[dario03]

How many times are you going to post that video? Which by the way we've already said multiple times that Superman from the animated series is weak. Oh and that video proves nothing about Superman compared to the Flash.

1. It was 40 tons and 4,000 times 40tons is 160,000tons which is the weight of a large building but no where near as much as very large buildings. So I'm not seeing a problem since it doesn't seem like lifting strength goes up with power levels at a even rate, notice that base Goku had a power level at least in the millions and struggled with 40tons (or even 400tons if you prefer). Heck you could easily say that the problem is that GT made him to strong and that him lifting a building that big is being generous. But this really doesn't matter because even if it was 400 tons and even if Goku was 4,000,000,000,000,000 times as strong his physical strength is still no where near Superman's shown feats.

2. I don't know what to tell you. Its there, its Countdown 48 Death Of A New God, May 30, 2007.

4. I already explained why they might not sense Superman's power. The Z fighters have shown that they can sense ki, the androids and Superman are not powered by Ki, the androids power is artificial and Superman's is from the Sun. And so what if Goku notices Superman's speed increasing, like I said if we are going to base speed off of math then Superman at full speed would be at the sun in nearly a instant and theres no way Goku could stop him which also doesn't matter because Superman wouldn't need to Sun dip.

Sorry i meant this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBXSoajMi1s

------------

1-I don't think that building's wight is 160,000 tons , under x10 gravity it's 400 tons not 40 .

4-If superman's power source was the sun then we can say that Goku can't sense his energy but unfortunately it's not .

1 - Well what do you think that building weighed?
- We don't know what the gravity on that planet was and they didn't say "give him 40 earth tons not adjusted to this gravity so that he ends up with 400tons" they said "40 tons". And it still wouldn't matter if it was 400tons or even 400,000,000 tons, he still wouldn't be showing anything near Superman strength.
- And how strong do you think Goku is?

4 - Superman's power source is the sun... So I'm guessing you mean that since he stores the energy then Goku could sense it. Maybe he can but then again its not Ki and Goku has never sensed non-ki power from people since he couldn't sense modified human powers so it would make sense for him not to sense Superman's power either.

Like I said you can use just feats or you can do the math, either way Superman is faster and stronger... by a lot.

[valfranx]

19. Large Star Level (330,544,933.08 yottatons) - Characters that can destroy blue giant stars (Spectral Class B-O), represented by Rigel.

Examples: Thor and other Herald level characters from Marvel

So can we get Thor vs Goku? I wanna see the crying after Goku gets his face smashed in.

not necessarily because the cell said it would destroy the solar system, that is much more destructive energy than the energy necessary to destroy a blue star.

Our solar system has a radius of 150 AU.

Largest star observed (VY Canis Majoris) has a radius of 8,36838 - 9,76311 AU.

Our solar system is larger than any star, and that’s the radius if you want to count volume that’s a cubic relation too.

Our sun won’t go supernova, so in order to destroy the entirety of the solar system Cell would have to conjure a blast that would devour the entire solar system. in others words, a supernova very powerfull. feat level sneeze pre-crisis or the largest, further, below of high-end feats Superman pre-crisis, however above of regular supermans.

For example: A character with a power level of 150,000,000, like SSJ Goku would have a energy output of: 1.5034*10^44 which would translate to a 1 foe, which is the energy required to destroy a blue star.

What I find interesting though is that Vegeta at 18,000 would have a energy output of 2,1644*10^36 Joules, the energy required to destroy the earth is 2,2*10^32 Joules.

Proving that according to the scientific method Vegeta was in fact capable of blowing up the earth when he first arrived.

look it is only destructive capacity level saga cell, of
agreement with the level of manga, if taking feats of movies, it would be cowardice, against regular versions of Superman.

[TonyTheTiger]

If you destroy the sun then you destroy the solar system. So there's no need to assume Cell means anything more than he might be able to blow up the sun, which makes up 98% of the solar system's mass anyway. The best way to measure potential feats is to interpret them at the minimum power necessary through which the feat is technically accomplished. That's the only way to be sure you aren't overestimating.

[Rocketman]

Our solar system is larger than any star, and that’s the radius if you want to count volume that’s a cubic relation too.

The Solar System is almost entirely empty space. It is not a single object.

[valfranx]

Oops! More I remembered, even in canon says that characters, could create supernova explosions level, as quoted in DBO. and also mentioned in the new film, where the assistant of bills says that bills, was so powerful it could destroy a solar system in the blink of an eye, so we have 3 citations in canon that says that characters can destroy solar systems. when the author is repeating more than once that the destructive capacity of the characters, the author makes a point, this is what differs from the hyperbole.

other evidence showing that the characters could destroy stars and kaioshins own, that according with herms, in new guide says they could create stars, planets and even life, and this characteristic like skyfathers marvel, however low-level skyfathers. since they are below cell.

and finally piccolo in trailer said that bills could make a galaxy disappear. Well this may give a sense of how goku was so powerful at the end of dbz.

If you destroy the sun then you destroy the solar system. So there's no need to assume Cell means anything more than he might be able to blow up the sun, which makes up 98% of the solar system's mass anyway. The best way to measure potential feats is to interpret them at the minimum power necessary through which the feat is technically accomplished. That's the only way to be sure you aren't overestimating.

Ah, you're making a common mistake. You assume that Cell is targeting the sun. imagine our solar system as a field of baseball,the planets are grains dust, sun is the baseball, you destroy the ball, more not destroyed the field baseball

i and friend, we will address these issues in destructive capacity of superman and goku, in our death battle, where, we will compare goku canon / non-canon vs modern superman and superman non-canon. and also we will show, the calculations on each feats of them. we're just waiting for the launch, of new film, for add, new information our research.

[Zephyr]

even in canon

so we have 3 citations in canon

There is no official "canon". That word is being abused to death.

And on the topic of DBO, there is no official quote saying that it is the highest tier of official post-manga in-universe material that actually happened in the mind of Toriyama. All we know is that Toryimama approved some of the stuff that ended up being in DBO. Nothing more conclusive than that.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

And on the topic of DBO, there is no official quote saying that it is the highest tier of official post-manga in-universe material that actually happened in the mind of Toriyama. All we know is that Toryimama approved some of the stuff that ended up being in DBO. Nothing more conclusive than that.

The developers stated their goal was to make everything feel as if it could fit in the Dragon World. So, at least up until the game's release (we don't know if he's still helping with the various updates), he had to approve everything that went into the production; story, designs, attacks, etc.

[Rocketman]

Ah, you're making a common mistake. You assume that Cell is targeting the sun. imagine our solar system as a field of baseball,the planets are grains dust, sun is the baseball, you destroy the ball, more not destroyed the field baseball

You continue to be wrong in new and fascinating ways. Maybe you should stop.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Yeah Cell would have to cause a sun-centered explosion... I don't see how Cell can blow up the solar system in it's entirety with his Ki alone... Cell likely can only produce 165 Septillion to around 10 Octillion megatons.

[GoKu.SaMa]

Bussani
.

ScrewAttack said from the get go that they weren't going to use battle powers and power scaling

Then how did they knew that Goku is 2.3 times faster than the light ?

They went off of feats and feats alone. Saying "Goku got this much strong so he must be this much faster" results in crazy figures that don't fit the feats. To me, this suggests that a linear progression in speed is the wrong way to look at it. Perhaps, like in real life, it's more complicated than that, and the increases in speed actually become smaller and smaller the faster the characters get.

The first time i did the math i was depending on numbers from real life , but the second time i did the math depending on the Snake Road .

Of course, the truth is that the author likely never thought about math or progressions like this at all, and just made the characters as much faster as he wanted them to be

We don't know anything about that .

If we can't use numbers then we can't discuss about this , because that's the only way to know who is stronger .

By your logic, Goku, after Namek, should be fast enough to travel from where he landed on Earth to Kame House in seconds, without teleporting. None of the characters believe this is possible. Moreover, if his speed kept increasing from there the way you think it should, everyone would be able to get anywhere on Earth in less than a second. No one ever displays that much speed, even when they're trying to get somewhere in a hurry

Will that proves that my calcs are almost right .

Vegeta said that Goku went to Kame House and get back by using his speed without teleporting , so that means Goku can go to Kame House and get back in less than 1 without using SSJ (using 2% of his full power) and that means 20000 km/s and that means Goku's full speed(at that time) was 1000000 km/s and that means he was more than 33 times faster than the light and that's even faster than what i expected .

[TonyTheTiger]

Not to mention, given what Cell's attack looked like, it would have to hit the sun to destroy the solar system unless he somehow winded it through the planets one by one. He never actually said that particular attack would destroy the solar system, just that he gathered the requisite power for it to pack that much punch. Meaning that he could do it if he were trying to, as in if he were aiming for the sun instead of Gohan. It was a frame of reference, not a declaration that the solar system itself was in danger (unless the sun was actually in Cell's path). It's like saying "this rifle could kill a moose." That doesn't mean a moose is going to drop dead whenever you pull the trigger.

This is the beam Cell was struggling against that ultimately killed him:


This is Superman's heat vision:


It's not even close. Not even a little bit. Not in any way that doesn't require a ridiculous amount of willful blindness.