Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DannyDBZfanforever]

The one million dollar question:

who did the most powerful kamehameha?

1 - Cell Super Perfect Form

2 - Super Saiyan 2 Gohan

or

3 - Triple Family Kamehameha (because this one failed to destroy a 1/30 of the sun) at the end of the movie 10.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

I also want to say, than Piccolo with a power of 325 destroyed the moon (one-shot). If the Earth in Dragonball universe has the same mass as our Earth, then Earth would have a greater mass of 81, then to destroy the earth with one-shot, it would take an attack of 26,325 units of power (which makes sense since Goku takes the triple Kaio-Ken and the super Kamehameha to make the garlic Gun from Vegeta and Goku with triple Kaio-Ken, he had a power over 24.000 units and the kamehameha was not able to defeat the garlic gum, it was necessary the Kaio-Ken 4 ).
If we make a comparison of the sun, relative to the earth, there are two major possibilities: volume and mass.
Mass of the sun in relation to Earth - 330,000
Volume of the Sun relative to Earth - 1,400,000

To destroy the sun in the DB universe (going by the mass - one shot) - 26.325 X 330.000 = 8.695.500.000

To destroy the sun in the DB universe (going by volume - one shot) - 26,325 X 1.400.000 = 36,890,000,000

Whereas the sun is more than 99% of the mass of the solar system. If Cell is able to destroy the sun (one shot), the solar system would be annihilated, since the sun is more than 99% of the mass of the solar system.

[Bussani]

I also want to say, than Piccolo with a power of 325 destroyed the moon (one-shot). If the Earth in Dragonball universe has the same mass as our Earth, then Earth would have a greater mass of 81, then to destroy the earth with one-shot, it would take an attack of 26,325 units of power

This has sort of become a pet peeve of mine, but you can't technically work out how much energy it takes to destroy something from its mass alone. Radius is also a factor. A planet with Earth's mass, but half Earth's size, would be twice as hard to destroy as Earth.

Of course, Dragon Ball is fiction, so I suppose it can work however someone wants it to work...?

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Another interesting question, Piccolo early in the anime (and also in the manga ) was still an enemy of Goku. Piccolo had a power of 408 without heavy clothing. Whereas in the form of Oozaru Vegeta had a max of 180,000 combat power. It was a difference of 441 (here I am comparing the difference in power between the enemy's strongest form in a previous saga with the stronger enemy of the saga following, but we have no official data on the power of Piccolo on 23th martial arts tournament, I had to use the power at the beginning of the Raditz Saga, sorry about that.).
Now I do the comparison of Vegeta (at its most powerful form- 180k Oozaru form against the most powerful form of Frieza (main enemy, of the following saga). Frieza had at its peak 120 M, of against Vegeta Oozaru form 180K (hypothetical) in the Saiyan saga , a difference of 666 in Frieza Favor. On the other words, the difference in power between last enemies in their respective sagas, is (at last) more that one hundred times.
The power difference between Full Power Frieza and Super Perfect Cell would have to be greater than 100 times (e.g. - the PL of SP Cell had to be more than 12 billion - min). Therefore, I think the SP Cell could destroy the sun or the solar system (is irrlevante, once the sun occupies more than 99% of the mass of the system), by volume to the pl of SP Cell would have be greater than 30Bi.

Well, I'm taking considering the statement from the Cell is true.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

I also want to say, than Piccolo with a power of 325 destroyed the moon (one-shot). If the Earth in Dragonball universe has the same mass as our Earth, then Earth would have a greater mass of 81, then to destroy the earth with one-shot, it would take an attack of 26,325 units of power

This has sort of become a pet peeve of mine, but you can't technically work out how much energy it takes to destroy something from its mass alone. Radius is also a factor. A planet with Earth's mass, but half Earth's size, would be twice as hard to destroy as Earth.

Of course, Dragon Ball is fiction, so I suppose it can work however someone wants it to work...?

Yes, so put two hypotheses, a hypothesis involving mass and othe hypothesis involving the volume.I also used the very popular DB mathematical form, if x is able, y is also capable.

[Bussani]

Yes, so put two hypotheses, a hypothesis involving mass and othe hypothesis involving the volume.

There's a third "hypotheses": take both mass and radius into account at the same time. That's how it works in real life, and it tells us that the Earth would take about 1,800 times more energy to destroy than the Moon. Amazingly, the Sun would take about a billion times more than the Earth.

[TheMightyOzaru]

The one million dollar question:

who did the most powerful kamehameha?

1 - Cell Super Perfect Form

2 - Super Saiyan 2 Gohan

or

3 - Triple Family Kamehameha (because this one failed to destroy a 1/30 of the sun) at the end of the movie 10.

Triple Family Kamehameha was likely the strongest since I think Gohan and Goku went SSJ2 last minute. That Kamehameha is damn powerful.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Yes, so put two hypotheses, a hypothesis involving mass and othe hypothesis involving the volume.

There's a third "hypotheses": take both mass and radius into account at the same time. That's how it works in real life, and it tells us that the Earth would take about 1,800 times more energy to destroy than the Moon. Amazingly, the Sun would take about a billion times more than the Earth.

Well, going by that:

Piccolo (one shot) the Moon (325) X 1,800 = 585,000 (even high than Frieza First Form - 530K)

Assuning the earth (585K) X 1.000.000.000 = 585,000,000,000,000 (585 Trillions).

That is a big, big jump, even for SPCell

[RandomGuy96]

Hey, new guy here. I got some power estimates for the Android Saga that are really different than some other people's (scaled a bit higher, because I actually take that V-Jump number for Cooler as accurate) and would like to see what other people think of them. But before I post them, I have a question about how Piccolo got so strong while training for the androids...

Is it possible he learned the kaio-ken off-screen? The same invisible kaio-ken x10 Goku used on Namek and Movie 5? At least in Kai, when Piccolo is fighting Android 20, he says that all of them have learned to amplify their base energy in short bursts to give their strikes some extra kick. If that was true, it would answer a ton of questions and make some power level lists way more clean.

[dbzfan7]

Hey, new guy here. I got some power estimates for the Android Saga that are really different than other people's (scaled higher, because I actually take that V-Jump number for Cooler as accurate) and would like to see what other people think of them. But before I post them, I have a question about how Piccolo got so strong while training for the androids...

Is it possible he learned the kaio-ken off-screen? The same invisible kaio-ken x10 Goku used on Namek and Movie 5? At least in Kai, when Piccolo is fighting Android 20, he says that all of them have learned to amplify their base energy in short bursts to give their strikes some extra kick. If that was true, it would answer a ton of questions and make some power level lists way more clean.

Piccolo doesn't know Kaioken. He never used it in the manga or referenced he could. Kaioken is also not listed under the special attacks he is capable of in the guidebooks.

[RandomGuy96]

Just throwing it out there as a guess. It's my fanon at least, because there's no way Piccolo could've gotten that powerful that fast...

[Kaboom]

I usually just assume that his merging with Nail not only gave him a bunch of power right then and there, but likewise drastically increased the benefits he could reap through training. Two people in one body results in gaining power twice as fast, or something like that.

[dbzfan7]

I usually just assume that his merging with Nail not only gave him a bunch of power right then and there, but likewise drastically increased the benefits he could reap through training. Two people in one body results in gaining power twice as fast, or something like that.

I thought of that as well. Also Toriyama likes Piccolo so he used his God powers on him to make him not far off from Super Saiyan.

[RandomGuy96]

I have him way below the Android Arc Super Saiyans, but still. Jesus. If he liked Piccolo so much maybe he should've kept him relevant past the mid-Cell Saga.

Anyway, here I go. Just a reminder for everyone:

Mecha Frieza's Arrival

Mecha Frieza: 140,000,000 (100% full power), 70,000,000 (surpressed state he was killed in)
King Cold: 100,000,000
Super Saiyan Trunks: 160,000,000
Yardrat Super Saiyan Goku: 260,000,000

Logic:
*Mecha Frieza: He says that he's gotten stronger since Namek, but is still not sure about his ability to take Goku alone. Given this is FRIEZA we're talking about here, who thought he could take Goku on while missing 2/3 of his body, I take that to mean he's probably still slightly weaker than him. Trunks killed him in a suppressed state; this is especially apparent in the manga where Trunks kills him immediately rather than doing crazy anime stuff like catching his Supernova.
*King Cold: The official guides state Cold is "somewhat inferior" to Frieza, and Frieza thought he'd be a big help against Goku. This seems about right.
*Trunks: The anime (maybe the manga too, haven't checked) states that he might be stronger than Namek Goku, but those who sense his energy note that his energy is very similar to Goku's overall.
*Goku: Goku was a lot stronger than Trunks, and this power boost is minor compared to the boosts he later get...

Movie 5 (near the end of Android training)

Cooler True Form: 140,000,000
Cooler Fifth Form: 470,000,000
Goku (invisible kaio-ken x10 vs Cooler): 150,000,000
Goku (visible kaio-ken x20): 300,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 750,000,000
Cooler's Supernova: 1,400,000,000
Goku's Super Kamehameha: 1,500,000,000
Piccolo: 70,000,000
Salza: 60,000,000
Doore: 18,500,000
Neiz: 16,300,000

*Cooler: Numbers given in V-Jump. Some people don't think this makes sense, but I do, for a few reasons. Explained in Goku's entry.
*Goku: His power matches with official numbers perfectly. Goku in his base was slightly stronger than Cooler's true form and, according to Cooler, strong enough to defeat Frieza. However, he was very likely using the same invisible kaio-ken x10 he was on Namek. That makes everything fit together nicely. Kaio-ken x20 Goku was completely outclassed against fifth form Cooler while Super Saiyan Goku was quite a bit more powerful than Cooler. His kamehameha strength comes from the beginning of the series, where charging a powerful kamehameha against Raditz doubled his power. But even then, it just barley beat Cooler's Supernova, with Goku nearly dead from the strain.
*Piccolo: He just has to be this strong to match up with the Android Saga, given the jumps Goku has made. Still one-shot material for Cooler.
*Salza: This one is kind of ridiculous, as he rivals 50% Frieza. However, given that he briefly fights evenly with Piccolo and his first reaction to finding the man who killed Frieza is "GET HIM!", it's quite possible he is this strong. This is another reason why I think Piccolo learning kaio-ken makes sense; if he did, I can write this off saying he didn't learn this until after facing Salza, making Salza's power more in the range of 6,000,000 which I think is far more reasonable.
*Doore: I just multiplied his official numbers times a hundred. The gap between him and Salza can't be THAT overwhelmingly huge, and he actually touched Goku. If you're willing to buy my kaio-ken theory, divide his power by 10 as well.
*Neiz: Same as Doore.

Android Saga

Super Saiyan Goku (healthy): 800,000,000, >100,000,000 (sick)
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 900,000,000
Super Saiyan Trunks: 210,000,000
Piccolo: 125,000,000
Android 20: 55,000,000
Android 19: 50,000,000
Android 18: 1,200,000,000
Android 17: 1,300,000,000
Android 16: 2,900,000,000

*Goku: As I was under the impression that Cooler's movie was near the end of android training, Goku has only gotten a little stronger.
*Vegeta: Piccolo says that Vegeta might be stronger than Goku, something Goku agrees with. He's stronger, but the gap can't be that big.
*Piccolo: He's grouped with the Super Saiyans, despite being weaker than them, and Krillin expresses shock that a non-Super Saiyan could possibly be that powerful.
*Trunks: He's gotten stronger since last time, but not by much, and he's still one-shot fodder to the androids.
*Android 20: Stronger than 19, but still an absolute weakling dependent on his energy absorbing abilities. I don't even want to get into how those abilities actually work, it's too screwball. Even after absorbing a crap load of energy, he was only strong enough to get completely man-handled with no effort by Piccolo. I for one don't think Piccolo got several hundred times stronger.
*Android 19: See logic for 20.
*Android 18: Very slightly weaker than 17. She and Vegeta seemed closely matched in their fight, with him landing some good hits even after she declared that she wanted to go serious. However, as Piccolo points out, Vegeta's stamina isn't infinite like hers. On top of this, while it was close, she still clearly held an advantage most of the time.
*Android 17: Slightly stronger than 18 and about as strong as Kamiccolo.
*Android 16: Completely outclasses both 17 and 18 and is an equal to Imperfect Cell post-human meal.

Cell Saga

Imperfect Cell (pre-power-up): 940,000,000
Imperfect Cell (post-power-up): 2,900,000,000
Kamiccolo (vs Cell and 17): 1,250,000,000

*Imperfect Cell, prior to absorbing all those humans, is weaker than Piccolo or the androids. However, he's still strong enough that Goku says "The way I am now, I definitely can't beat the androids or this 'Cell' guy". Given what we know of Vegeta and 18 in relation to Cell, he can't be THAT much stronger than Goku, but he clearly is stronger. Post-power-up, he gains the power to completely godstomp 17 and Piccolo and fight evenly with 16, suggesting a big gap.
*Kamiccolo: About on the level of 17. I have him slightly weaker, since it's noted in the Frieza saga that Piccolo, while a bit weaker than second form Frieza, was still able to win barley due to skill. Unless something I don't know about contradicts this, or I'm remembering it wrong.

...and that's all I have. Mostly because I have no way to even accurately guess how big the gaps are after Semi-Perfect Cell. What do you guys think?

EDIT: I'd just like to post one more estimation:

Meta-Cooler: 1,900,000,000 (likely), unknown but around Perfect Cell (if you're trying to put it in the canon).

Meta-Cooler (the one that Goku and Vegeta fought) one-shotted Kamiccolo and effortlessly handed Vegeta and Goku their asses, while Androids 18 and 17 were about evenly matched with the former two. To me, this puts him way above 17 and 18 but not quite at 16's and Imperfect Cell's level, since he still got killed by a combined energy attack from weaklings. However: if you try to put it in the timeline, it can only go in the ten day wait to the Cell Games. In which case, he curbstomped Full Power Super Saiyan Goku.

[Victorious]

Another interesting question, Piccolo early in the anime (and also in the manga ) was still an enemy of Goku. Piccolo had a power of 408 without heavy clothing. Whereas in the form of Oozaru Vegeta had a max of 180,000 combat power. It was a difference of 441 (here I am comparing the difference in power between the enemy's strongest form in a previous saga with the stronger enemy of the saga following, but we have no official data on the power of Piccolo on 23th martial arts tournament, I had to use the power at the beginning of the Raditz Saga, sorry about that.).
Now I do the comparison of Vegeta (at its most powerful form- 180k Oozaru form against the most powerful form of Freeza (main enemy, of the following saga). Freeza had at its peak 120 M, of against Vegeta Oozaru form 180K (hypothetical) in the Saiyan saga , a difference of 666 in Freeza Favor. On the other words, the difference in power between last enemies in their respective sagas, is (at last) more that one hundred times.
The power difference between Full Power Freeza and Super Perfect Cell would have to be greater than 100 times (e.g. - the PL of SP Cell had to be more than 12 billion - min). Therefore, I think the SP Cell could destroy the sun or the solar system (is irrlevante, once the sun occupies more than 99% of the mass of the system), by volume to the pl of SP Cell would have be greater than 30Bi.

Well, I'm taking considering the statement from the Cell is true.

'Super' Perfect Cell is IMO easily greater than 100x Freeza. I'd say 2nd form Cell was already around that powerful.

[Victorious]

The one million dollar question:

who did the most powerful kamehameha?

1 - Cell Super Perfect Form

2 - Super Saiyan 2 Gohan

or

3 - Triple Family Kamehameha (because this one failed to destroy a 1/30 of the sun) at the end of the movie 10.

The strongest KHH in DBZ would be the one Buutenks [Super Buu wiht Piccolo and SSJ3 Gotenks absorbed] fired at Ultimate Gohan.

[omegalucas]

I usually just assume that his merging with Nail not only gave him a bunch of power right then and there, but likewise drastically increased the benefits he could reap through training. Two people in one body results in gaining power twice as fast, or something like that.

Well, if we go by the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu theory on Naruto (using "clones" giving more experience since you basically keep the information you gathered from both) it may explain how he had such a big increase by training (I wouldn't say an increase on physical strength but maybe on mental - ki).

[RandomGuy96]

I was thinking about doing more power levels, and I got confused about something: were the Future Androids really much weaker than the ones released in the present timeline? Trunks says they are, but I just can't see any logical reason why they would be.

[Saiga]

I was thinking about doing more power levels, and I got confused about something: were the Future Androids really much weaker than the ones released in the present timeline? Trunks says they are, but I just can't see any logical reason why they would be.

I go by the theory that they were just holding back against him.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I was thinking about doing more power levels, and I got confused about something: were the Future Androids really much weaker than the ones released in the present timeline? Trunks says they are, but I just can't see any logical reason why they would be.

I go by the theory that they were just holding back against him.

Same here.