Buugetto

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegetto struggled to stop Boohan when he did that universe distorting thing. Pure Boo is stronger than Boohan, and base GT Goku is stronger than that.

The lack of sarcasm scares me, on that note think whatever you want....

Unfortunately, Saiga is right on this. There are statements & feats that prove that base GT Goku is at least equal with SS3 Goku.
However, I consider those statements & feats as plot holes (because it obviously doesn't make sense), so I ignore them and put GT Goku a few times stronger than Z Goku.

[Beji]

It is wrong because he thinks Base Goku is Stronger than Buu-han, but that's only because he thinks Pure Buu is stronger than Buuhan. Yes at least if not better than ssj3 Goku, we got that from Rildo and Goku's approximation of his power. I don't like it either but I know. But not Boohan.... Which is why I'm concerned. There is a HUGE jump from saying base Goku (GT) is stronger than ssj3 and Base goku (GT) is stronger than Ultimate Gohan's power added to Buu's power...

@Beji Knock it off with the condescending attitude if you really want to discuss things rather than just butt heads

Buu-hoo It isn't butting heads at this point. Its you thinking whatever you wish. I'll believe you.
If there is one final relevant thing I'll add.

"Vegetto struggled to stop Boohan when he did that universe distorting thing."

So we're assuming that none of his power came from Gohan, and the concept of amplification is out the window. And that Vegetto" Struggled" with this?

*EDIT<-twice because I spelt "edit"wrong *And to add in my BS theory on that scene where Vegetto had to actually try to punch through Buu's Barrier. If Buu absorbs people's abilities and powers and such. And Buu, who already had his power fluctuate by emotions had Gohan who's powers would also fluctuate with emotions.. Wouldn't that make a bit of sense being able to tap more into Gohan's power based on the past? But there are no guidebooks or statements saying this so just food for thought

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I never said it makes sense, but nothing Toei shits out does in the first place. I'm just going with what is, and what is is that Pure Boo is the strongest in the anime.

No, he is not. We've argued about this again a month or two ago, and you know that there are numerous statements in the anime that disagree with that logic, yet you disregard all of them just to bash Toei's love for Goku, and statement wasn't even directly related to Goku, since Goku saying that he could beat Boo in full power was much later.

No, it's not because of that. And I already pointed out that a lot of those statements you posted weren't really relevant. The Pure Boo > Gohan-Boo quotes are far clearer than anything else they give us, and the contradictory material is all adaptation of Toriyama's material. So, that makes it obvious to me that Toei intend for Pure Boo to be the strongest.

And I'll ask again: what statements in which episodes?

[Saiga]

And I'll ask again: what statements in which episodes?

There's Kaioshin's line, and from memory I believe the narrator also says as much.

[Beji]

No, he is not. We've argued about this again a month or two ago, and you know that there are numerous statements in the anime that disagree with that logic, yet you disregard all of them just to bash Toei's love for Goku, and statement wasn't even directly related to Goku, since Goku saying that he could beat Boo in full power was much later.

No, it's not because of that. And I already pointed out that a lot of those statements you posted weren't really relevant. The Pure Boo > Gohan-Boo quotes are far clearer than anything else they give us, and the contradictory material is all adaptation of Toriyama's material. So, that makes it obvious to me that Toei intend for Pure Boo to be the strongest.

And I'll ask again: what statements in which episodes?

He is totally messing with us he was just in the Re: Dragon Ball things you never want to hear again almost singing a completely different tune YESTERDAY almost answering his own questions

The final villain = strongest argument doesn't make sense. It isn't necessary for the final villain to be the strongest, so it shouldn't be assumed to be the case when evidence points to the contrary.

I don't see how that makes sense. Goku didn't get any stronger during the Boo Arc, so how could he be the strongest by the Boo battle if he isn't before?

So I dont get it @Saiga what happened between yesterday and today? also is that line you are talking about a Dub line? Because I think I remember what you;re talking about. But Kaioshin at one point was freaking out because the Buu he was turning into was the most ferocious, unsympathetic, as he proceeded to immediately destroy the earth.

[Saiga]

I was talking about the manga in the other thread, and the anime in this one. The lines I'm talking about are there in the Japanese version (could be wrong about the narrator one, but the one DBZGTKOSDH posted clearly shows that Kaioshin called him the strongest).

[TheMightyOzaru]

Even assuming GT Goku is stronger than every form of Buu, he would still need SSJ to stand a chance against anime Super Vegetto. Manga Vegetto still grapes everything.

[Saiga]

Even assuming GT Goku is stronger than every form of Buu, he would still need SSJ to stand a chance against anime Super Vegetto. Manga Vegetto still grapes everything.

Why would he? There's nothing to really suggest Super Vegetto is stronger than anime!Pure Boo.

[Darkprince410]

And I'll ask again: what statements in which episodes?

There's also a statement Goku makes in one of the filler scenes where he says that Pure Buu is on a whole different level than anyone else he's fought before, and since said scene is filler, you have to take into account his fights between Gotenks Buu and Gohan Buu, which were also filler.

[FNF]

In GT-verse, he would probably be around Oozaru Baby.

Out of GT-verse, Vegetto is unbeatable...not counting this Birusu chump.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And I'll ask again: what statements in which episodes?

There's also a statement Goku makes in one of the filler scenes where he says that Pure Buu is on a whole different level than anyone else he's fought before, and since said scene is filler, you have to take into account his fights between Gotenks Buu and Gohan Buu, which were also filler.

But don't forget that in both manga & anime, Rou Kaioshin said that Goku & Gohan together wouldn't stand a chance against Gotenks Boo, Goku said that Gohan should be able to easily beat Piccolo Boo (not him, Gohan) when he reverted back to that form, Goku said that he & Vegeta together wouldn't stand a chance against Evil Boo, and Goku & Vegeta felt a power increase in Boo when he reverted into S. Kaioshin Boo, and a decrease when he reverted into Pure Boo. Goku is clearly stated to be weaker than all of Evil Boo's forms in the anime.

Why would he? There's nothing to really suggest Super Vegetto is stronger than anime!Pure Boo.

But there is. Goku was stated in the anime that he was a lot weaker than Gotenks Boo, while base Vegetto was a lot stronger than Gohan Boo (who is stronger than Gotenks Boo).

[TheMightyOzaru]

Even assuming GT Goku is stronger than every form of Buu, he would still need SSJ to stand a chance against anime Super Vegetto. Manga Vegetto still grapes everything.

Why would he? There's nothing to really suggest Super Vegetto is stronger than anime!Pure Boo.

Umm Vegetto is the end game Dragon Ball character and Pure Buu doesn't have to be that much stronger than Buuhan. Base Vegetto was toying with him.

[Saiga]

@DBGTKOSDH It's still outright stated that Pure Boo is stronger than Gotenks-Boo and Gohan-Boo, and so Goku not being able to beat them is retconned... just like him not being able to beat Fat Boo.

TheMightyOzaru True, Pure Boo might not be much stronger than Gohan-Boo... but Vegetto still struggled to stop Gohan-Boo when he was distorting the universe. So I think Pure Boo and Super Saiyan 3 Goku are at least a little stronger than Gohan-Boo doing the distortion and Super Vegetto. Only in the anime, of course.

[Darkprince410]

But don't forget that in both manga & anime, Rou Kaioshin said that Goku & Gohan together wouldn't stand a chance against Gotenks Boo, Goku said that Gohan should be able to easily beat Piccolo Boo (not him, Gohan) when he reverted back to that form, Goku said that he & Vegeta together wouldn't stand a chance against Evil Boo, and Goku & Vegeta felt a power increase in Boo when he reverted into S. Kaioshin Boo, and a decrease when he reverted into Pure Boo. Goku is clearly stated to be weaker than all of Evil Boo's forms in the anime.

I'm aware of him saying that, but I'm just saying there is that discrepancy in what the anime has to say. The canon dialogue has Goku being weaker than all the forms of Evil Buu, but the non-canon dialogue and scenes together have Goku being both weaker than all the forms of Evil Buu while somehow still being far stronger than all of them at the same time (because of his non-canon statement that Pure Buu is on a whole different level than any other Buu he's fought)

[goku the krump dancer]

I don't see why its so hard to believe that SSJ Goku or General Rildo would be stronger than Boo (Fat,Super or Kid).. Isn't it Dragon Ball tradition for the next bad guy to stronger than the last? Hell Dabura who was a henchman was compared to Cell who was the previous arc's top villain.

So in that regard I don't see that as a problem in GT.

[Hitiro]

@DBGTKOSDH It's still outright stated that Pure Boo is stronger than Gotenks-Boo and Gohan-Boo, and so Goku not being able to beat them is retconned... just like him not being able to beat Fat Boo.

TheMightyOzaru True, Pure Boo might not be much stronger than Gohan-Boo... but Vegetto still struggled to stop Gohan-Boo when he was distorting the universe. So I think Pure Boo and Super Saiyan 3 Goku are at least a little stronger than Gohan-Boo doing the distortion and Super Vegetto. Only in the anime, of course.

Just curious but where are you getting all this? Goku is confident that a SSJ Gotenks(Pre-ROSAT) would be able to defeat Fat Boo. That would make SSJ3 Gotenks much stronger than SSJ3 Goku because Goku would never be able to defeat or buy enough time for Trunks to grab the Dragon Radar without SSJ3. If he could put up a good fight in SSJ1 or SSJ2 he would have just done that instead of waste time on a transformation which would drain all the time he had left on Earth.

Evil Boo says the only warrior that was stronger than him was Gohan meaning:

Fat Boo < SSJ Gotenks < Kid Boo <= SSJ3 Goku < SSJ3 Gotenks < Evil Boo < Gohan < Bootenks < Boohan < (Anime: Base Vegetto <) SSJ Vegetto

No matter how you look at it, anime or manga, SSJ3 Goku is nowhere near the Evil Boo's in regards to strength. Especially the absorbed versions. And while you might be able to nit-pick lines which could suggest the opposite there are just as many lines as a counter argument.

I don't see why its so hard to believe that SSJ Goku or General Rildo would be stronger than Boo (Fat,Super or Kid).. Isn't it Dragon Ball tradition for the next bad guy to stronger than the last? Hell Dabura who was a henchman was compared to Cell who was the previous arc's top villain.

So in that regard I don't see that as a problem in GT.

The dragonball tradition would be for the bad guy to be stronger than the last but for the hero to outmatched in some way until they gain a powerup or ability to defeat them. And I wouldn't say the jumps between each villain has been that massive in my personal opinion. For instance, Vegeta was stronger than Cell by the Boo era but he still put up a semi-decent fight against Fat Boo despite Boo being stronger. Goku was easily taking Fat Boo when he was SSJ3 and SSJ3 is only 4x stronger than SSJ2. So I feel that any new villain would be 2x to 4x stronger than the last. In my opinion anyway. But Goku jumping from having a battle power rivalling Kid Boo in SSJ3 to a Base GT Goku who's close to Kid Boo in battle power is a pretty massive jump of nearly 400x. I guess you can say that its because Goku had the chance to train with Oob for all that time which Zenkai'd him up to be close what he was in the Z-arc.

But that's really dependant on whether Oob got to his Kid Boo power during their training. Instead of just peaking off at a human limit. We probably have to take into consideration Oob might not be able to access 100% of Kid Boo's because he's human and the human body has its own limitations. Its the same thing with, for instance, Gohan, for him to fight Super Boo the Elder Kaioshin had to "unlock his potential way beyond his limits" Of course who's to say that Elder Kaioshin unlocked all Gohan's potential beyond his limits. There might have been a point in which he could unlock no further for risk of destroying Gohan's body. The limits are there for a reason, they're there to prevent such cases. For all we know Gohan at the end of the Z era is only using 80% of his potential and before that he could have been using 50% due to the limitations of his body only allowing him to use 50% So it could be the same issue with Oob where his limits only allow him to use X% of potential due to his human limitations. So we have no way to gauge how strong GT Goku is except for him needing SSJ to fight a person on par with a Majin Boo which we aren't given any reference as to which one. Regardless, it paints the picture that General Rildo is more than 2 to 4 times stronger than Fat Boo or Kid Boo if Goku is using SSJ to fight him and he's been training with Oob for so long.

[goku the krump dancer]

I don't see why its so hard to believe that SSJ Goku or General Rildo would be stronger than Boo (Fat,Super or Kid).. Isn't it Dragon Ball tradition for the next bad guy to stronger than the last? Hell Dabura who was a henchman was compared to Cell who was the previous arc's top villain.

So in that regard I don't see that as a problem in GT.

The dragonball tradition would be for the bad guy to be stronger than the last but for the hero to outmatched in some way until they gain a powerup or ability to defeat them. And I wouldn't say the jumps between each villain has been that massive in my personal opinion. For instance, Vegeta was stronger than Cell by the Boo era but he still put up a semi-decent fight against Fat Boo despite Boo being stronger. Goku was easily taking Fat Boo when he was SSJ3 and SSJ3 is only 4x stronger than SSJ2. So I feel that any new villain would be 2x to 4x stronger than the last. In my opinion anyway. But Goku jumping from having a battle power rivalling Kid Boo in SSJ3 to a Base GT Goku who's close to Kid Boo in battle power is a pretty massive jump of nearly 400x. I guess you can say that its because Goku had the chance to train with Oob for all that time which Zenkai'd him up to be close what he was in the Z-arc.

But that's really dependant on whether Oob got to his Kid Boo power during their training. Instead of just peaking off at a human limit. We probably have to take into consideration Oob might not be able to access 100% of Kid Boo's because he's human and the human body has its own limitations. Its the same thing with, for instance, Gohan, for him to fight Super Boo the Elder Kaioshin had to "unlock his potential way beyond his limits" Of course who's to say that Elder Kaioshin unlocked all Gohan's potential beyond his limits. There might have been a point in which he could unlock no further for risk of destroying Gohan's body. The limits are there for a reason, they're there to prevent such cases. For all we know Gohan at the end of the Z era is only using 80% of his potential and before that he could have been using 50% due to the limitations of his body only allowing him to use 50% So it could be the same issue with Oob where his limits only allow him to use X% of potential due to his human limitations. So we have no way to gauge how strong GT Goku is except for him needing SSJ to fight a person on par with a Majin Boo which we aren't given any reference as to which one. Regardless, it paints the picture that General Rildo is more than 2 to 4 times stronger than Fat Boo or Kid Boo if Goku is using SSJ to fight him and he's been training with Oob for so long.

Eh, I think it just makes things more complicated when you try to pick apart blatant statements. I mean yea must of us do it anyway which is where most of the conversations on the forums come from lol. But in this case I think its clear as day, now I'm may be paraphrasing but this pretty much the gist of what Goku said in regards to Rildo's strength

Goku : Oh this guy's strong.. even stronger than Majin Boo.

Now with that statement and given the track record of the series I don't see how this is so hard to believe. Piccolo was the last big bad of the first half of Dragon Ball, 5 years later he's dwarfed by Raditz ( a Henchman so to speak) who was dwarfed by Vegeta just a year later, who 6 months later struggled against Freeza's henchmen , then got a power boost but was dwarfed again by Freeza's elite squad and they were dwarfed by Freeza himself, who was then dwarfed by androids 4 years later who were then dwarfed by Cell who seven years later was rivaled by Dabura (another Henchman) who was later dwarfed by Boo who was the last big bad guy of Z at the time. 15 years after Kid Boo's death Goku encounters some henchmen who both rivaled (ledgic) and surpassed Boo (Rildo).

So you mean to tell me you don't buy that after 15 years of training and sparring he wouldn't be strong enough to beat Boo even if it is in SSJ form? As outrageous as it may seem its definitely happened before and not that farfetched especially given the time frame that this takes place.

I know its not 100% clear on witch Boo Goku is referring but the anime/manga never really differentiates the Boos anyway outside of Gray Boo and Fat Boo after the first initial split. We can assume that Goku was referring to Kid Boo since thats the one he fought seriously but at the same time I doubt it took Goku 15 years to reach Super Boo's strength since he's arguably stronger than his Pure'er form. But I'll let you be the judge on witch incarnation of the Djinn he was referring to.

[Hitiro]

Eh, I think it just makes things more complicated when you try to pick apart blatant statements. I mean yea must of us do it anyway which is where most of the conversations on the forums come from lol. But in this case I think its clear as day, now I'm may be paraphrasing but this pretty much the gist of what Goku said in regards to Rildo's strength

Goku : Oh this guy's strong.. even stronger than Majin Boo.

Now with that statement and given the track record of the series I don't see how this is so hard to believe. Piccolo was the last big bad of the first half of Dragon Ball, 5 years later he's dwarfed by Raditz ( a Henchman so to speak) who was dwarfed by Vegeta just a year later, who 6 months later struggled against Freeza's henchmen , then got a power boost but was dwarfed again by Freeza's elite squad and they were dwarfed by Freeza himself, who was then dwarfed by androids 4 years later who were then dwarfed by Cell who seven years later was rivaled by Dabura (another Henchman) who was later dwarfed by Boo who was the last big bad guy of Z at the time. 15 years after Kid Boo's death Goku encounters some henchmen who both rivaled (ledgic) and surpassed Boo (Rildo).

So you mean to tell me you don't buy that after 15 years of training and sparring he wouldn't be strong enough to beat Boo even if it is in SSJ form? As outrageous as it may seem its definitely happened before and not that farfetched especially given the time frame that this takes place.

I know its not 100% clear on witch Boo Goku is referring but the anime/manga never really differentiates the Boos anyway outside of Gray Boo and Fat Boo after the first initial split. We can assume that Goku was referring to Kid Boo since thats the one he fought seriously but at the same time I doubt it took Goku 15 years to reach Super Boo's strength since he's arguably stronger than his Pure'er form. But I'll let you be the judge on witch incarnation of the Djinn he was referring to.

I wouldn't say Piccolo was dwarfed by Raditz, Raditz was only 3x stronger than Piccolo. The largest power increases, at least in terms of multipliers, I feel were during the Saiyan and Namek Saga's, Vegeta was 15x stronger than Raditz. Then Vegeta gets almost a 0.33x increase in power after being beaten on Earth, then he fights against Dodoria and promptly beats him. He gets beaten by Zarbon and comes back 0.41x stronger to fight against Zarbon a second time and beat him. Then they have to deal with the Ginyu force where Goku comes along who's close to 3x stronger than Vegeta and beats them. After they beat the Ginyu force Vegeta increases his battle power by around 15.5x to fight on par with first form Freeza. Freeza increases his battle power 2x according to his statement of having a battle power of over a million. He then increases his battle power by at least 3x after fighting with Piccolo and transforming into his third form. And then he transforms yet again giving him a maximum battle power of 120 million. Which is a 40x increase.

Goku arrives after Vegeta gets a beating with an increase of 33x his original battle power. And from that point on Zenkai's take a back seat and don't really contribute to much. When they have their battle powers in the millions it would seem like training is the most efficient way to keep up with the latter enemies. And apart from Zenkai's(which came to amount to nothing massive later) or transformations the gains throughout the series with just training aren't that huge. In my opinion I don't think any enemies after the Namek saga are large leaps in battle powers. Not by actual numbers but by multiplications. Of course their battle powers would be huge but the difference between X character and Y character are only a couple of times difference. This paragraph probably doesn't make much sense, couldn't sleep. x.x

[FindKenshi]

I feel like the hypothetical "Buugetto" could still defeat Dragonball GT characters... think about it. Buu is already versatile as hell.
He can mimic techniques just by seeing it once.
He can transmute his opponents into inanimate material (except it doesn't fully work on Vegetto.. somehow)
He can absorb an opponent as a last ditch effort
He can regenerate in seconds from tiny fragments, or even smoke

So just Buu's base abilities make him formidable without even considering his power. Now you take not only Vegetto's raw power, but also Vegetto's skills and knowledge, and add that to Buuhan? Yeah. I think he'd be more than a match for everyone except SSj4 Gogeta.

[Saiga]

@Hitiro The thing is, it doesn't take any nitpicking at all. It's blatantly stated that Pure Boo is the strongest in the anime, which holds more weight than interpretations of implications.